Did Wiggins win the 2009 TDF?

nic_77

So what do we think... were Contador, Schleck and Armstrong all riding clean in the 2009 race???

(Of course I'm assuming that our Brad wouldn't cheat...)

micron

A place on the podium is looking ever more likely

donrhummy

What makes you think Andy cheated and Wiggo didn't?

Tom Butcher

Is there any real evidence any of them were cheating in 2009 ?

Doobz

nic_77 wrote:

So what do we think... were Contador, Schleck and Armstrong all riding clean in the 2009 race???

(Of course I'm assuming that our Brad wouldn't cheat...)

pointless thread.. you answered your own question

afx237vi

Tom Butcher wrote:

Is there any real evidence any of them were cheating in 2009 ?

No, but even so I think we should just award the title to Kenny Van Hummel and make everyone happy.

moray_gub

afx237vi wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Is there any real evidence any of them were cheating in 2009 ?

No, but even so I think we should just award the title to Kenny Van Hummel and make everyone happy.

He would be in with a shout but he quit around Stage 17

dave_1

what a hypothetical jingoistic suggestion. Wiggo would never dope cause he's British. Come on guys. You trying to say we from this island are more honest?

csp

Moray Gub wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Is there any real evidence any of them were cheating in 2009 ?

No, but even so I think we should just award the title to Kenny Van Hummel and make everyone happy.

He would be in with a shout but he quit around Stage 17

Hutarovich is the man.

jimmythecuckoo

Albert Timmer wins the 2009 Tour de France.

AidanR

It's a bit of a daft one, but he's got a point. Wiggo has done more than most to show he's clean (still no guarantee!) by publishing blood values etc. Contador has been linked to Puerto, Schleck made payments to a known doping doctor, and LA, well...! It's not simple jingoism that makes some on this board think Wiggo is clean - there's more evidence in his favour than with most riders.

shinyhelmut

AidanR wrote:

Schleck made payments to a known doping doctor

Wrong Schleck though

jimmythecuckoo

If its good for one its good for the other.

AidanR

Ah, fair point. I find it hard to believe Andy would be clean if Frank was doping, but that's getting pretty speculative so I'll shut up.

nic_77

Yes, I accept that the question is a mischievous one… but there is a serious point too:

With Contador and Armstrong riding for Bruyneel, and Schleck riding under Riis their performances can not be without suspicion. Wiggins has at least said the right things about doping – I fully admit that this means nothing!

The top ten from TDF 09, complete with their dodgy associations / rumours / links etc:

Alberto Contador (Puerto / Bruyneel / Astana)
Andy Schleck (Riis / Frank Schleck?)
Lance Armstrong (Landis / Andreu / UCI / Walsh & Ballester etc)
Bradley Wiggins (Exceeding expectations!)
Frank Schleck (Fuentes / Riis)
Andreas Kloden (Ulrich / Armstrong / Freiburg Clinic)
Vincenzo Nibali (Pellizoti / Ferrari)
Christian Vande Velde (US Postal / Armstrong)
Roman Kreuziger (?)
Christophe Le Mevel (?)

Not very happy reading!!

I wonder what Brad privately thinks - of course he would know whether he was clean himself, and I bet he has suspicions against some of those above him.

Kléber

nic_77 wrote:

Christophe Le Mevel (?)

No way. Clean as a whistle, you won't find anything dodgy.

He's currently training in the Pyrenees and his wattages are higher than last year, he's planning a serious go at the GC. Now before you spray tea all over the keyboard, he wants the top-10, not the yellow jersey.

The rest of this thread is a bit daft, it's a bit like asking riders if they beat their wives. Yes there are big questions to ask but forum speculation makes it hard. As a rule, it pays to be skeptical but you need a trail of suspicion and evidence at least.

jimmythecuckoo

Good luck to C L-M then, I hope he does well if he is honest and clean.

nic_77

Kléber wrote:

The rest of this thread is a bit daft, it's a bit like asking riders if they beat their wives.

Another question to ask Kristin :shock:

P.S. I agree that this is a daft thread - speculative, hypothetical and largely pointless, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I am enjoying watching the whole dirty drama unfold.

jimmythecuckoo

me too, this could be the best one yet.

I might have to start reading Podium Cafe again.

oscarbudgie

nic_77 wrote:

Yes, I accept that the question is a mischievous one… but there is a serious point too:

With Contador and Armstrong riding for Bruyneel, and Schleck riding under Riis their performances can not be without suspicion. Wiggins has at least said the right things about doping – I fully admit that this means nothing!

The top ten from TDF 09, complete with their dodgy associations / rumours / links etc:

Alberto Contador (Puerto / Bruyneel / Astana)
Andy Schleck (Riis / Frank Schleck?)
Lance Armstrong (Landis / Andreu / UCI / Walsh & Ballester etc)
Bradley Wiggins (Exceeding expectations!)
Frank Schleck (Fuentes / Riis)
Andreas Kloden (Ulrich / Armstrong / Freiburg Clinic)
Vincenzo Nibali (Pellizoti / Ferrari)
Christian Vande Velde (US Postal / Armstrong)
Roman Kreuziger (?)
Christophe Le Mevel (?)

Not very happy reading!!

I wonder what Brad privately thinks - of course he would know whether he was clean himself, and I bet he has suspicions against some of those above him.

But by that reckoning you'd have to include Wiggins' time at Cofidis.........

nic_77

oscarbudgie wrote:

nic_77 wrote:

Yes, I accept that the question is a mischievous one… but there is a serious point too:

With Contador and Armstrong riding for Bruyneel, and Schleck riding under Riis their performances can not be without suspicion. Wiggins has at least said the right things about doping – I fully admit that this means nothing!

The top ten from TDF 09, complete with their dodgy associations / rumours / links etc:

Alberto Contador (Puerto / Bruyneel / Astana)
Andy Schleck (Riis / Frank Schleck?)
Lance Armstrong (Landis / Andreu / UCI / Walsh & Ballester etc)
Bradley Wiggins (Exceeding expectations!)
Frank Schleck (Fuentes / Riis)
Andreas Kloden (Ulrich / Armstrong / Freiburg Clinic)
Vincenzo Nibali (Pellizoti / Ferrari)
Christian Vande Velde (US Postal / Armstrong)
Roman Kreuziger (?)
Christophe Le Mevel (?)

Not very happy reading!!

I wonder what Brad privately thinks - of course he would know whether he was clean himself, and I bet he has suspicions against some of those above him.

But by that reckoning you'd have to include Wiggins' time at Cofidis.........

It's a fair point, but probably only comparable to implicating Andy Schleck or CVV by association to their teammates / managers - the rest have mud of their own!

RichN95.

nic_77 wrote:

Yes, I accept that the question is a mischievous one… but there is a serious point too:

With Contador and Armstrong riding for Bruyneel, and Schleck riding under Riis their performances can not be without suspicion. Wiggins has at least said the right things about doping – I fully admit that this means nothing!

The top ten from TDF 09, complete with their dodgy associations / rumours / links etc:
!!

The whole guilt by association argument breaks down when you remember that the great hero of the most rabid anti-doping fans, Christophe Bassons, rode for Festina, by reputation, the dirtiest team of them all.

Eau Rouge

But by that list of mud Wiggins looks the most guilty during last years race, he's the one exceeding expectations. The others all have dodgy pasts, but only a little to suggest they were up to anything dodgy last year.
I don't think for a second he was, I'm just pointing out how silly the threads premise is.

Buckled_Rims

nic_77 wrote:

I wonder what Brad privately thinks - of course he would know whether he was clean himself, and I bet he has suspicions against some of those above him.

Not necessarily correct. It's been known for team managers and coaches ( I'm thinking more in terms of athletics) to secretly spike drinks and food of their protégées. Remember, the pressure on managers to get their teams to perform can be immense.

Turning a blind eye is also a major sport in it's own right.

fastercyclist

Buckled_Rims wrote:

nic_77 wrote:

I wonder what Brad privately thinks - of course he would know whether he was clean himself, and I bet he has suspicions against some of those above him.

Not necessarily correct. It's been known for team managers and coaches ( I'm thinking more in terms of athletics) to secretly spike drinks and food of their protégées. Remember, the pressure on managers to get their teams to perform can be immense.

Turning a blind eye is also a major sport in it's own right.

Thanks for the mental image of Riis skulking through the shadows in the kitchen before the team chef arrives with mysterious concoctions for his favoured (cycling) son.

bompington

Buckled_Rims wrote:

Not necessarily correct. It's been known for team managers and coaches ( I'm thinking more in terms of athletics) to secretly spike drinks and food of their protégées.

There are of course plenty of PEDs that can be taken orally, but it is a bit harder to give someone an injection or blood transfusion without their knowledge

Gazzaputt

For me there was only one rider in last years TDF who's performance looked superhuman.

Reminded very much of a certain Mr Ricco in '08 TDF.

Tom Butcher

fastercyclist wrote:

Thanks for the mental image of Riis skulking through the shadows in the kitchen before the team chef arrives with mysterious concoctions for his favoured (cycling) son.

Slight tangent but to me Riis comes across as the most insincere person in the world. Something about him that whenever he talks I just think - he's lying.

LangerDan

If you assume for one moment that the others were doped and Wiggins was clean, then in order for Wiggins to have been on the "real winner", Garmin would have to have been capable of defending the yellow jersey and I'm not sure thay'd have been up to it. On top of that, Wiggins 4th place benefited from moves instigated or driven by the "suspect" teams / riders.

The only way to answer this question would be to ensure the entire field is clean and re-run the event. Maybe Wiggins would win, but equally he might finish outside the top 10.

El Imbatido

nic_77 wrote:

Yes, I accept that the question is a mischievous one… but there is a serious point too:

With Contador and Armstrong riding for Bruyneel, and Schleck riding under Riis their performances can not be without suspicion. Wiggins has at least said the right things about doping – I fully admit that this means nothing!

The top ten from TDF 09, complete with their dodgy associations / rumours / links etc:

Alberto Contador (Puerto / Bruyneel / Astana)
Andy Schleck (Riis / Frank Schleck?)
Lance Armstrong (Landis / Andreu / UCI / Walsh & Ballester etc)
Bradley Wiggins (Exceeding expectations!)
Frank Schleck (Fuentes / Riis)
Andreas Kloden (Ulrich / Armstrong / Freiburg Clinic)
Vincenzo Nibali (Pellizoti / Ferrari)
Christian Vande Velde (US Postal / Armstrong)
Roman Kreuziger (?)
Christophe Le Mevel (?)

Not very happy reading!!

I wonder what Brad privately thinks - of course he would know whether he was clean himself, and I bet he has suspicions against some of those above him.

If you want to crucify people for guilt by association well then you will have to write the names Allen Lim and Johnathon Vaughters next to Wiggins' name. Lim was named by Floyd and Vaughters has that IM conversation.

I guess what i'm trying to say like others is this is pointless.

dougzz

LangerDan wrote:

If you assume for one moment that the others were doped and Wiggins was clean, then in order for Wiggins to have been on the "real winner", Garmin would have to have been capable of defending the yellow jersey and I'm not sure thay'd have been up to it. On top of that, Wiggins 4th place benefited from moves instigated or driven by the "suspect" teams / riders.

The only way to answer this question would be to ensure the entire field is clean and re-run the event. Maybe Wiggins would win, but equally he might finish outside the top 10.

+1 - This is always the trouble with just promoting the next person, you get false winners. I think think Bertie may not have won the Tour in 07 if Rasmussen hadn't dragged him along.

My own view is when people are Dq'd you just go without that place being filled, maybe it means no winner but that's better than false promotion.