Landis, Armstrong. Just the facts.
BikingBernie
Posts: 2,163
Given that all the discussion about Landis, Armstrong and co. tends to create very long threads in which the real information gets lost, let's have a thread where only links to data, copies of documents and so on are published. No arguments!
To start us off the cozybeehive has already put together a lot of relevant resources.
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/search/label/Doping
To start us off the cozybeehive has already put together a lot of relevant resources.
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/search/label/Doping
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Comments
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the info is going to get lost here too so why bother
come off the gas for a while...."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Last time I looked, I couldn't find this anywhere on the Internet, so I have posted it in full.
L'EQUIPE
October 6, 2005, page 12.
English translation of "Ce qui s'est passe sur le Tour 2005".
Photo
Prentice Steffen, USA, 44 years old
-Specialist in both Emergency Medicine, in San Francisco (USA), and Sports Medicine
-Worked successively for the cycling teams Subaru-Montgomery (1993-1995), US Postal (1996), Mercury (1998-2002), Prime Alliance (2003), Health Net (2004), then TIAA-CREF (2005)
Prentice Steffen, the ex-doctor for US Postal let go at the end of 1996 for not wanting to respond to the doping trend, reveals the new practices of the peloton.
"What happened during the 2005 Tour (de France)"
Dr. Prentice Steffen, his diplomas attest to the fact, is a model doctor. Specialist in both Emergency Medicine and Sports Medicine, he worked for four years, from 1993-1996, with the American cyclists of the teams Subaru-Montgomery then US Postal. In 1996, "during the height of the reign of EPO", his riders were totally destroyed during the Tour of Switzerland and two among them, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton, asked him in veiled words to help them dope. He refused and alerted the team directors. At the end of the year, his contract was not renewed and one morning the mailman delivered him a registered letter with the intimidation order to not talk about his experience in the heart of US Postal. "A few months later," he remembers, "the nine riders of the team rode the Champs-Elysees of the finish of the 1997 Tour de France. I realized they'd move on to EPO...". Today, despite threats from Lance Armstrong (1), Dr. Steffen is still in the milieu (of cycling). He takes care of a team of young American professionals (TIAA-CREF) which disputed the latest edition of the Tour de l'Avenir.
L'EQUIPE:
With all that you know about doping and the practices of a part of the peloton, why are you involved with young cyclists"
STEFFEN:
The pressure to dope for riders under the age of 25 is not so strong. Big teams don't want to see young guys arrive in their ranks with an already bad reputation. There's also the fact of being able to race in France. It's easier. If we come to race in France, with our team of young riders, it's not because our sponsor loves Avignon and Provence, but rather because we know we have a better chance to do well, even win. Thanks to the fear of the police, thanks to the journalists, and thanks to the fight against doping in place in your country. French riders, maybe due to these forces, have tried to change. We only race in your country and in the United States.
L'EQUIPE:
Your young riders are knowledgeable about doping?
STEFFEN:
They have a very clear understanding about things and about the environment they're in. To be among the best, one has to dope. For them, it's certain. I don't think they doubt it for an instant. But there are people fighting to change this situation. Jonathon Vaughters, the director of our team, is working to make it so that there is another path. But if things don't change, riders who are 20 years old today, in five years will have to make a choice: stop racing or dope.
L'EQUIPE:
Is it possible today to recognize those who'll take that step?
STEFFEN:
Even if we had a team psychologist who knew each rider intimately, who fully understood the problem of doping, I'm not sure he could know. If someone had asked me this question about Tyler Hamilton 10 or 11 years ago, I would've said: "He'll never do it. He's too honest, too well raised, too hard working... ". But that's not how it works. Unpleasant people like Lance Armstrong dope and nice people like Tyler Hamilton also dope. There's a moment when they waver. As if they don't have a choice. The only other solution would be to stop cycling. But they see themselves with a future, without a job. I think a rider with a college degree or from a family with money will be less likely to get involved in doping. But that's just a theory; Tyler Hamilton has a degree... he probably had other options. That proves that at a certain point there's something stronger that anything else that pushes a rider in (to doping). Maybe glory, maybe money.
L'EQUIPE:
Why, after all the difficulties you've endured, do you continue to work in this milieu (cycling)?
STEFFEN:
I love cycling. I've been in cycling for 26 years, since I was in college. But I promised myself something, and my wife can serve as witness: if Hamilton is declared innocent and nothing happens to Lance, I'll quit, I'll quit cycling once and for all. I'll believe there's no longer any hope. For now though, I'm optimistic. I'm a believer in using everything in the judicial arsenal to combat doping: increase the number of out-of-competition tests and better target the times they're done, freeze specimens and authorize their analysis and retrospective sanctions. And callon, when it's necessary, the police and the border controls. Above all, the UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) should be completely out of this fight against doping because their is corruption there. That's my opinion, I don't have any proof, just doubts and a few rumors...
L'EQUIPE:
Aren't you a bit radical?
STEFFEN:
It's this way and only this way that we will really be able to combat doping. I'll explain something I've been told relating to certain teams in the 2005 Tour and you'll understand where this sport has gone...
L'EQUIPE:
Who told you?
STEFFEN:
Someone in the heart of a team that I can't name. Before going to the start of the Tour, the riders of certain teams, during their training camps, took EPO (which disappears from the urine within three days, even 12 hours when small doses are used) and took their hematocrits up to around 60. Then a doctor withdraws their blood, saving it in special containers, to lower their blood parameters into the accepted range (50) so that they pass without difficulty the medical controls before the Tour. Then, as the teams well know, during the race the vampires (2) can arrive any day but always between 7 and 8 in the morning. After that time, there is no more testing and the riders were able to reinject their own blood. They were racing the stage with an enormous advantage- their hemotrocrit in the 55 to 58 range during the race- then in the evening at the hotel, someone again withdraws their blood so that they sleep without risk (3) and, especially, they escape the possible tests the next morning.
L'EQUIPE:
This practice was used every evening during the three weeks of the Tour?
STEFFEN:
No, just for important stages in the mountains or maybe for a time trial. It's so simple to do and there's no risk of being caught unless the police intervene. The blood was shuttled by motorcycle in a refrigerated compartment...
L'EQUIPE:
Autotransfusions (where one injects his own blood) are indetectable. Can nothing be done to stop it?
STEFFEN:
Yes. The vampires should come take the blood samples just before the start near the start line. It's the only solution. Or otherwise, once again we must call on the police...
DOMINIQUE and JEAN ISSARTEL
(1) After the publication of his testimony about Jemison and Hamilton in an article in the Sunday Times of London in 2001 when he expressed his certainty that US Postal had begun doping, Dr. Steffen received a phone call from Armstrong in which he threatened him in the following terms (the same that he used against Greg LeMond and Mike Anderson, his former personal assistant): "I have a lot of money, good lawyers, and if you continue to talk, I'll destroy you."
(2) The UCI antidoping control officers are thus nicknamed in cycling.
(3) When certain blood parameters (hemoglobin, hematocrit) are too high, there is a real risk of blood clots due to thickening of the blood.
(4) UCI anti-doping rules saying article 135 that "a test can be carried out in competion or out-of-competition at any time and at any place without warning". In this particular case, no rider can be declared positive because autotransfusions are indetectable. But if the blood parameters are abnormal, the authorities can forbid the rider to continue the race and can impose a rest period of 15 days.0 -
No discussion! Start a new thread for that.mididoctors wrote:the info is going to get lost here too so why bother - come off the gas for a while....
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L'Equipe.
05 June 2007.
He became a gardener but on this Occasion Jesus Manzano is collaborating with the Italian justice Dept. Tomorrow he'll go to Rome to help the judge who is investigating Basso to decode the medical prescriptions and to recognize the doping products. Jesus Manzano, the ex-cyclist of Kelme is an expert. In 2004, he admitted that he took drugs during his entire career and he almost died because of it. The Spanish Justice buried his story but the investigation of the Spanish Police has revealed one of the biggest scandals in the history of cycling. Manzano has still things to say about it....
"Are you feeling a little pride about the effects that your statements are having?"
-I'm just telling my story to the paper, AS. I was the first but others confirmed. Dario Gadeo (an ex-cyclist of the Paternina team) and probably others without any fanfare. The problem was that the first judge who came to interrogate me was Italian was Guariniello and not Spanish. More sadly, the Spanish Judge despite everything I told him, didn't think there was anything to investigate more or less ditto for the Spanish cycling federation. A la fede, I gave them viles of epo with prescriptions, with all the proof to confront everyone. But they deem it worth pursing.
"You seem disappointed. Though you're collaborating with Italian authorities and you're only waiting a call from the L'AMA to make yourself available to them..."
- I will continue the fight if it will serve a purpose. It Italy, France and Germany, things change. In Spain I prefer to let it go. Here, nothing's changed. I'm tired. I don't have any faith in the (Spanish) authority. I remember during the Vuelta 2003, Fuentes arrived at our hotel driving a porsche with thermoses of epo on the passenger seats without hiding them. At the same time, at the Giro or the Tour, we were already being careful.
"Why were you being so careful?"
-They called someone who wasn't part of the team to transport the products. In France it was a nurse her nickname was Paloma Blanca. They paid her 27,000 euros to do this. Each cyclist paid 3,000 each. She transported epo, testosterone, the synthetic hemogloblin (veterinarian) from hotel to hotel. She was and still is the fiancee of a mechanic who is working for Caisse d'epargne team. Everyone throughout cyclist knows this story. I gave all the proof and said everything but there's too much pressure and probably too much money and too much money to loose. And so the truth is everyone in Spain is still doing this.
"How can that be?"
-Belda is working for a team and Fuentes and I can guarantee that he'll begin again on a smaller scale. He's still helping athletes recuperate from their efforts. Why wouldn't he still be doing what he was doing before? He's free, the justice didn't sentence him for what he did even though he had proof.
"Manolo Saiz, one of the managers in the pelotons, isn't influencing anyone anymore...."
-Don't dream, he'll come back. For the moment, he's occupied with recuperating his money. He'll be back. After that, he'll let the time go by and then he'll begin again to get new sponsors. These new sponsors will ignore who he is and look the other way. In general, don't kid yourself because they fired one or two sporting directors. Jose Miguel Echavarri (who was the former director of Indurain's Banesto is now the owner of Caisse d'Epargne.) He has explained that his cyclist Valverde is clean. I must be dreaming! Valverde was with Kelme and he was the only one not doing anything wrong....he's in it knee deep with Fuentes. And Echavarri says that he doesn't know anything and he's never seen anything but I know that he personally brought Zaballa to Fuentes. And Jose Maria Jiminez didn't know anything was going on either? So then I'm affirming to you that the world of cycling in Spain is completely corrupt. From top to bottom it goes.
"What exactly are you talking about?"
-I want to give you an example, something I've never spoken about except to the police up until now. It concerns one of the four Spanish Laboratories credited by the UCI. This laboratory who is in charge of sending the "UCI" vampires (doctors)to take the samples during the Vuelta and other races is the same lab that's in charge of the doctor visits to the cyclists, they follow the cyclists and give them the stamp of approval on their licenses. The owner of this clinic, a renowned hemotologist, called Walter Viru, who is one of the doctors for Kelme to alert them the day before the uci vampires were coming to take the samples from the cyclist. And he did the same thing with Del Moral, the doctor for the U.S. Postal team and then Discovery, a good friend of his.
"Are you certain about what you're setting forth here?"
-I experienced it in 2002 and 2003 during the Tour de Spain. I gave the police have all the details and the name of the clinic. Even better I remember one time Viru who acquired the russian epo wanted to know the purity of it before he used it. And so he gave a vile of it to this clinic and had them confirm it was good. An important detail, this laboratory is still accredited by the UCI. When I talk about the mafia, I don't use this word lightly.
"You mentioned Jose Maria Jiminez, el Chava, who died in 2003 from a heartattack. Was it the drugs that killed him?"
-Of course, like it killed Pantani. The drugs lead you to other addictions. The anti-depressants almost automatically accompany other doping treatments. I took up to 8 pills of prozac a day when I was racing.
"Why"
-Prozac cuts the appetite, keeps you in another world, a world where you're not afraid of what you're doing. You're no longer afraid to inject yourself with all the crap. It takes you to a world where you don't ask any more questions especially you don't ask your doctor questions either or your sporting director. Then there are periods where you must stop doping you feel like superman. Then one day all of the sudden it stops and you become dramatically depressed. Look at Pantani, Vandenbroucke and all the others we don't even talk about. They are numerous other cyclists and former cyclists that are addicted to cocaine, heroin and other medications. It's not just in the world of cycling.
"What did you have that El Chava didn't that kept you from falling into a depression?"
-I wasn't a professional cyclist for so long. El Chava stayed 13, 14 yearswith his team and I stayed 5 years. and frankly if I stayed 3 more years, I'd be dead from it. I knew Panatani and I knew hi m wlel. In 2002 and 2004 he came to work for Clarvoyrl and we rode together and we partied together. too many years in the business and unfortunatley more to follow.
"What's the solution?"
-Fire all the sporting directors. Riis is showing the example. It's good that he admitted now that he has to make the next step which is to quit the sport. How can he be taken credible? He's admitted to doping and now he wants us to believe he's going to go back to cycling and this is supposed to make us believe drugs won't be used anymore? There's only one solution: he must leave! And along with him all the sporting directors who have been working for the past 10 years have to quit also. They're the responsible ones. The directors are the ones who blackmail the cyclists they put pressure on the riders to take the epo and all the drugs and the cyclists can't refuse if they want to ride for the team. These directors are the ones who prolong the system and little by little pressure the pros into it. First you go slowly, then you fall slowly then you realize you've thrown everything away. They say to you "here's your choice: you do want we say or you're done cycling."
"How do you explain you never tested positive?"
-I told you about the clinic that fudged everything. There is a red powder that's made in an illegal lab just for them outside of any controls which destroys the urine sample. This powder comes in the form of a grain of rice that we put into our penis before we pee. The russian epo caused my teammates to be caught.
"What do you think of cycling today?
-It was my dream, my life. Today I'm completely indifferent to it. How could it be otherwise? When I see Valverde, Mancebo or Sevilla win I know what's going on. And that kills my love for the sport. Cycling is corrupt. You can see that on the side of the roads there's nobody left cheering on the cyclists except for the Tour. Even the cows aren't duped.
Scan of original:
http://www.multriman.com/news/riendechange.pdf0 -
English Translation of L.A. Confidentiel
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24714691/L-A- ... ranslation
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24714772/L-A- ... ranslation
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24714834/L-A- ... ranslation
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24717760/L-A- ... ranslation
Or:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b1d76hf ... s_1-50.pdf
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b1d7781 ... 51-100.pdf
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b1d77e0 ... 01-150.pdf
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b1d77he ... 51-195.pdf0 -
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BikingBernie wrote:
No discussion! Start a new thread for that.mididoctors wrote:the info is going to get lost here too so why bother - come off the gas for a while....
Anyone disobeying the Directives will be sent to the gulag for reprogramming, just like in the good old days...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
More on the close links between Armstrong and the UCI.
Once he dominated - now Lance could own the Tour
It may not be unveiled next week, but the word is that Armstrong is involved in a possible buyout of Tour organisers Amaury Sport Organisation from its parent company the Amaury Group. Furthermore, Armstrong may saddle up in the deal with Hein Verbruggen - the former president and now vice-president of cycling's world body, the Union Cycliste Internationale. Some say it may be an Armstrong-UCI deal.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/once-h ... ntentSwap1
Seeking to Overhaul Cycling, Armstrong Played a Part in Talks to Buy the Tour
According to his agent, Bill Stapleton, Mr. Armstrong has discussed the idea of buying the Tour with investors and remains interested in creating an organization that would run professional cycling and include the Tour. There is no current effort underway to buy the Tour, he said.
...In fall 2006, at a Manhattan bar, Mr. Armstrong, his agent Mr. Stapleton, and hedge-fund manager David "Tiger" Williams, along with actor Jake Gyllenhaal, discussed how cycling could benefit from central ownership. Mr. Armstrong said no new organization could succeed unless it controlled the Tour de France, say Mr. Stapleton and others familiar with the discussion.
Afterward, Mr. Armstrong rounded up a number of wealthy cycling enthusiasts willing to help fund a potential acquisition of the Tour de France, say Messrs. Stapleton and Weisel. It would have cost about $1.5 billion at the time to buy the Tour, people familiar with the matter say.
Others were also looking. In July 2007, Messrs. Armstrong and Stapleton entertained another prospective plan to reorganize cycling from Wouter Vandenhaute, a Belgian television executive and former sportscaster, who has a plan he calls the "World Tour." At the Hôtel de Crillon in Paris, Mr. Vandenhaute proposed a series of races with the Tour de France as the de facto Super Bowl of the season.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1238111 ... 3043.html#
Hein Verbruggen was also reported as being in negotiations with several investment companies interested in 'buying of the rights to televised cycle sport'. These included the Belgian production company Woestijnvis. (See http://tinyurl.com/2bt5hn ).
Guess who owns Woestijnvis? Yes Wouter Vandenhaute. Quite a 'coincidence' 0 -
You're actually weirdly obsessed with it, Bernie...
My diagnosis, closet fanboy The most painful climb in Northern Ireland http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs200.snc1/6776_124247198694_548863694_2335754_8016178_n.jpg0 -
Fixed the title for you: this is not a comment on whether or not any of this is true, just an observation that the range of facts that are possible, given the available evidence, is still not completely pinned down."Landis, Armstrong - just the evidence"0 -
Blood doping kits found at Astana - report
(AFP) – Dec 23, 2009
PARIS — Blood doping kits were discovered in a search of medical equipment belonging to Lance Armstrong's former Astana team during this year's Tour de France.
Blood transfusion is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency.
The find, which was first reported by French newspaper Le Monde, was confirmed on Wednesday to AFP by a source close to a French judicial investigation.
The source stressed that the initial inquiry by a Paris magistrates' court was continuing and that it was premature to suggest the equipment might constitute illegal activity.
The court in Paris opened its inquiry in July after the discovery during the Tour de France won by Armstrong's teammate Alberto Contador of medical equipment such as "syringes and perfusions".
The source added: "No trace of any doping product has for the time being been uncovered by the analysis of this material" belonging to Astana.
According to Le Monde antihypertensives (drugs that reduce high blood pressure) were also found at Astana during the search.
These drugs are not banned but can be used to treat hypertension associated with the practise of blood transfusions or the administering of the banned blood booster EPO.
Analysis of other products and equipment taken by investigators is continuing, the source said, adding that tests had indicated "seven different genetic profiles".
Identification of these profiles can only be made if and when the International Cycling Union hands over riders' blood profiles to French justice.
While Contador will race for Astana next year Armstrong, who claimed third behind the Spaniard in the Tour de France, has left to form his own team, RadioShack.
Copyright © 2010 AFP. All rights reserved.0 -
Armstrong's Bio Passport Critic Speaks
AS: Part of what you find suspicious about Armstrong’s values is that the hematocrit stays very steady, with a couple of spikes in the middle?
JM: Yes. Usually I'm referring to the hemoglobin concentration, because that is what's used nowadays. People are more and more interpreting hemoglobin concentrations instead of hematocrit because of analytical reasons. So what I see is that his first value is the same as his last value, and when you look at those individual values during the race, it's going down in the beginning, then after the rest day the values increase, then they go down again, and then on the second rest day it increases again. I am well aware of the analytical and biological variations in the hemoglobin concentration, that is why I have emphasized that the important point when interpreting these values is that the last value is not lower than the first.
AS: Is hematocrit and hemoglobin somewhat interchangeable?
JM: Yes, there is a good correlation between those two parameters.
AS: The other thing you find strange is the reticulocyte count, that it's too low, and that's indicating that he's not producing his own red blood cells?
JM: If you look at his values during the year up to the Tour, the reticulocyte values are pretty much what you would expect, around 1%. There are analytical variations and biological variations to that parameter as for any other parameter. Then at the beginning of the Tour, it's half, .5%, which is producing half the red blood cells that you would expect. The reason why you get a decrease in your reticulocyte values is when you have an increased amount of hemoglobin. Your body does not have to produce as much as usual.
http://velocitynation.com/content/inter ... tic-speaks0 -
By popular request.
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The original data file containing Armstrong's blood parameters, originally from Livestrong.com
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Armstrong's first name is Lance.
Landis's first name is Floyd.
Do I win a prize?
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Information on Armstrong's 'donation' to the UCI.
Former German cycling president blasts UCI’s handling of Armstrong case
“The UCI took a lot of money from Armstrong – to my knowledge 500,000 dollars – and now there is speculation that there are financial connections to Armstrong, as well as the American market. I do not know what sort of connections Verbruggen has.”
http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/09/ ... -case_8889
Rules bent for Texan.
Sunday Herald, The, Oct 12, 2008
by Jeremy Whittle
The feeling that Armstrong, whose success in road cycling opened the door to the hugely lucrative American market, has always been accorded special treatment by the UCI, dates back a decade. During his first Tour victory in 1999, when traces of corticoids were reported to have been found in his samples, the UCI unearthed a medical certificate after the event, showing he was permitted to use the substance.
Towards the end of his career, Armstrong made a donation to the UCI coffers, believed to be in the region of $500,000, claiming that it was to "combat doping". But former UCI committee member Sylvia Schenk said that it was "not clear what it was used for. It seemed to be a secret". A UCI spokesperson was yesterday unavailable for comment.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n30900387/
Pound points the finger for Armstrong leak at head of cycling's governing body
"Since 1998 the UCI has done a lot to combat doping but everything is different where Armstrong is concerned," said Schenk. Schenk is also concerned that Armstrong made a personal donation to the UCI to help fight doping. The gift coincided with the publication of the controversial book LA Confidential by the Sunday Times journalist David Walsh that linked Armstrong with using performance enhancing drugs without uncovering conclusive evidence. "There is obviously a strong relationship with Armstrong," Schenk said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/se ... ng.cycling
Lance’s Anti-Doping Fight
UCI president Hein Verbruggen spoke to ‘Eurosport’ and divulged that the American “gave money for the research against doping, to discover new anti-doping methods," “He gave money from his private funds, cash. He didn't want this to be known but he did it". Armstrong did not make this knowledge public and when questioned about the contribution said that “If I've donated money to the UCI to combat doping, step up controls and to fund research, it is not my job to issue a press release. That's a secret thing, because it's the right thing to do.” Eurosport.com also reports that when questioned about the amounts of money involved there followed “(Laughter) It was a fair amount. It wasn't... It wasn't a small amount of money".
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=30880 -
BikingBernie wrote:By popular request.
This topic just wasn't the same without it. Now, if I only had even a small clue as to what I'm looking at.0 -
The article discussing Lance's values:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/ana ... ls-debated
Sport's law side of things:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... armstrong/Contador is the Greatest0 -
BikingBernie wrote:By popular request.
What is the percentage error in those samples? While I agree they are probably accurate, there is no error mentioned on the graph.0 -
Read the linkredddraggon wrote:What is the percentage error in those samples? While I agree they are probably accurate, there is no error mentioned on the graph.
http://velocitynation.com/content/inter ... tic-speaks0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Read the linkredddraggon wrote:What is the percentage error in those samples? While I agree they are probably accurate, there is no error mentioned on the graph.
http://velocitynation.com/content/inter ... tic-speaks
I thought I recognised the Graph style, I guess I should be asking Dan Connell 0 -
I read the posts about Dr Steffan and they don't appear to make any sense. For a start hematocrit levels are proportional - and would not be affected by withdrawing blood. The entire process described is incredibly simplistic and illogical.
I get the impression that he was probably fired for being an idiot and ended up with a grudge. If that was the case I'm not surprised Armstrong threatened to sue him if he didn't shut up. This is kind of clear when Steffan refers to Armstrong as being an unpleasant person and in his pandering to l'Equipe newspaper. L'Equipe is a real gutter press, scavenging level of "white trash" newspaper.
Let's go back to the start - "just the facts". Well it strikes me that there are no facts. Everything linking Armstrong to doping is pure conjecture. The only FACT we know is that Landis is a liar - and liars like leopards do not change their spots. I listened to Landis before and gave him money - don't expect me to listen to him now. Unless you have something better than conjecture then forget it.0 -
Wrong! When blood is withdrawn the volume is quickly made up with an increase in plasma volume, so 'diluting' the red cells. Also blood donation or transfusion affects the reticulocyte count.feedbackdestroyer wrote:I read the posts about Dr Steffan and they don't appear to make any sense. For a start hematocrit levels are proportional - and would not be affected by withdrawing blood. The entire process described is incredibly simplistic and illogical.
Anyhow, this is a thread for links, articles and so forth. Please begin a discussion of the biological aspects of blood doping if you wish to learn more.0 -
Deleted a post as I got drawn into debate, thought I was on another thread, sorry.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
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I look at the graph,
I see someone who's HCT stays the same over a 3/52 GT (esp if without an increase in rets).
In other words he must be producing red cells +++ but there are no new red cells only mature ones - to me the only explanation I can think of is transfusion.
If he's not transfsing and there is no direct evidence yet that he has done anything specifically outlawed then he as least solved one of the longest lasting and most pressing questions of all time...
"what came 1st the chicken or the egg"
..in this case its clearly the chicken, 'cos thats whats happening fully formed mature blood cells spontaneously jumping out of his bone marrow at a time when everybody else's are breaking down.
But what do i know I'm not American, don't work for the UCI and I'm not a fanboi - and I don't even shave my legs.
edited 'cos I'm a nob and got carried away and can't spealll‘There is No Try. There is only Do. Or do not.’0 -
The evidence is clear and obvious.0
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Expert opinion on the EPO found in six of Armstrong's 1999 Tour samples.
"So there is no doubt in my mind he (Lance Armstrong) took EPO during the '99 Tour."
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interview ... l-ashenden
UCI experts do not believe in Armstrong
It may be that Lance Armstrong never officially tested positive, but according to Robin Paris Otto, one of UCI's anti-doping experts and the man who in 2000 developed the first analytical method for the detection of EPO, there is evidence that the opposite is true.
...He adds that the results which showed that the American was doped in1999 must be considered to be valid from a scientific point of view . "The methods used were valid. It is clear that the question mark concerning whether Armstrong was doped really is more of a legal than scientific nature. So there is scientific evidence that he was doped in 1999 and that he took epo. To deny it would be to lie. "
http://www.feltet.dk/index.php?id_paren ... yhed=171280
