Landis, Armstrong. Just the facts.

Dgh

feedbackdestroyer wrote:

I read the posts about Dr Steffan and they don't appear to make any sense. For a start hematocrit levels are proportional - and would not be affected by withdrawing blood. The entire process described is incredibly simplistic and illogical.

I get the impression that he was probably fired for being an idiot and ended up with a grudge. If that was the case I'm not surprised Armstrong threatened to sue him if he didn't shut up. This is kind of clear when Steffan refers to Armstrong as being an unpleasant person and in his pandering to l'Equipe newspaper. L'Equipe is a real gutter press, scavenging level of "white trash" newspaper.

Let's go back to the start - "just the facts". Well it strikes me that there are no facts. Everything linking Armstrong to doping is pure conjecture. The only FACT we know is that Landis is a liar - and liars like leopards do not change their spots. I listened to Landis before and gave him money - don't expect me to listen to him now. Unless you have something better than conjecture then forget it.

L'equipe gutter press?!?! :roll: It's a serious and very well respected sports newspaper. Landis is a liar. But the assertion that "leopards do not change their spots" ignores the fact that he has adopted two positions re his own doping (i.e. he didn't, then de did) both of which cannot be lies. Of course Landis' personal credibility is, to put it mildly, open to doubt, but that does not necessarily mean that he is lying.

As for facts, there are facts that raise questions about LA. In his first book, he made great play on his weight loss as an explanation for his transformation into a tour rider. I was happy to believe that. But in the texas arbitration, did he not testify that his weight loss was not as great as stated? And is it not the case that his VO2 Max, while obviously very good, was not what one would expect of a guy dominating the climbs?

I have read Walsh's book "From Lance to Landis". It makes a persuasive case, but one that I would want to hear tested by proper cross-examination and countring scientific evidence. As it stands, while I think the case against LA is certainly not proven, there do seem to be real questions to answer. Trashing a respected newspaper is not the way for LA's fans to go.

sampras38

paulcuthbert wrote:

You're actually weirdly obsessed with it, Bernie...

My diagnosis, closet fanboy

As soon as I saw the thread I thought the same thing. To me Bernie is coming across as a bit of an obsessive about LA in these threads and I've told him that before.

knedlicky

“Just the facts …”

LA’s former masseuse, Emma O’Reilly, claimed that in 2004 LA asked her to dispose of some syringes and to provide some way of concealing needle marks on his arms.

When they’ve messed up the veins in their arms, junkies often move down to the feet and ankles because the veins down there aren’t too hard to hit and healing rate is usually okay, although not as quick as injection sites in the arms. However these veins can’t cope with injecting too quickly. Doing this might cause them to bleed, thus delaying healing.
Slight bleeding shows less through black material than through white material.

Before 2004, LA didn’t go in for black socks any more than any other rider, but in 2004 he and Tyler Hamilton started wearing them, these two being the main cycling celebrities in the advertising of the company who first introduced black cycling socks.
Tyler Hamilton was later caught twice for doping.

The vein on the inner side of the leg between ankle and calf is particularly favoured by junkies. One of the common results of injections into these veins is varicose veins farther up the leg. Not long ago, wearing long socks or compression socks was thought to help against varicose veins, but this idea has since proved erroneous.
LA often wore long versions of the black socks, and later also long white socks. He apparently has very prominent varicose veins on the inner side of his right calf.

LA didn’t wear black socks on every occasion in 2004 but he wore them especially in the last week of the 2004 Tour, starting with the day he took the yellow jersey, stage 15.
In 2005, he continued this wearing of black socks only on ‘important’ days, for instance he wore black socks for the Alpe d’Huez TT, but not for the last day formality ride into Paris, when he wore long white socks.

:shock: :? :roll: or

BikingBernie

Bumped, just for Dave_1

paulcuthbert

knedlicky wrote:

He apparently has very prominent varicose veins on the inner side of his right calf.

In 2005, he continued this wearing of black socks only on ‘important’ days, for instance he wore black socks for the Alpe d’Huez TT, but not for the last day formality ride into Paris, when he wore long white socks.

:shock: :? :roll: or

Credibility has come into this debate a lot. This post lacks it in buckets.

Firstly - The TdF didn't TT at Alpe d'Huez in 2005.

The final week of the Tour in 2004 was mostly white socks. You can check if you want...

And on the final day in Paris in 2005, guess what...

Black socks.

Oh yeah, I don't see varicose veins

He's not George Hincapie...

Credibility? Huh...

knedlicky

paulcuthbert wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

He apparently has very prominent varicose veins on the inner side of his right calf.
In 2005, he continued this wearing of black socks only on ‘important’ days, for instance he wore black socks for the Alpe d’Huez TT, but not for the last day formality ride into Paris, when he wore long white socks.
:shock: :? :roll: or

Credibility has come into this debate a lot. This post lacks it in buckets.
Firstly - The TdF didn't TT at Alpe d'Huez in 2005.
And on the final day in Paris in 2005, guess what...

Black socks.
Oh yeah, I don't see varicose veins

He's not George Hincapie...
Credibility? Huh...

It's okay - I made a typo when I wrote '2005' (re Alpe d'Huez and white socks on last day). I meant 2004.

Black socks on last day of 2005 - maybe necessary because before the last TT Basso was still a threat, only 2 odd mins back, so a good dose may have been necessary. In 2004, LA could approach the TT more leisurely in 2004 as Klöden was already about 5 mins behind.

Don't know what you consider as varicose veins, but firstly for many your pic would constitute such (they don't have to be extreme to be considered varicose) and secondly, the pic I've seen of LA's right leg shows his are actually worse than your pic shows - perhaps depends when each photo was taken.

You are, however, quite right to mention Hincapie, as he was very likely tarred with the same brush, if that's not too abstruse an analogy.

JSB24

Socks proving doping..wow thats scraping the barrel.

No_Ta_Doctor

JSB24 wrote:

Socks proving doping..wow thats scraping the barrel.

I'd actually assumed someone was taking the piss. With everything else to weigh up the socks thing is quite ridiculous.

knedlicky

No tA Doctor wrote:

JSB24 wrote:

Socks proving doping..wow thats scraping the barrel.

I'd actually assumed someone was taking the wee-wee. With everything else to weigh up the socks thing is quite ridiculous.

My original socks post was semi-serious. Maybe if I repeat most of my pm answer to someone who sent me a pm asking me about the post, it’ll make it clear what I was thinking when I posted. Nonetheless, perhaps it’s still worth mentioning Manzano said some of the injections he received were into veins in the legs, so likely down by the ankles.

my pm answer: ”I recognise the connections I suggest might be far-fetched and circumstantial and in the end totally wrong, but I feel one way to try and catch a fraud is to look at the less obvious, because any fraud worth his salt will have made sure that the obvious (in cycling, tests, profile, etc) are covered up, deleted, or at least ambiguous. But most frauds inadvertently neglect or aren't able to cover up minor details.

LA didn't always wear long black socks and for all I know, he started to wear them for simpler if still not very worthy reasons (i.e. as part of his interpretation of the 'cult of the personality'), but I started to feel suspicious of his black socks when I noticed some contributors said he'd always worn black socks, and I knew 'always' wasn't true from the photos I'd seen in his earlier Tours.
I did some quick checks about when he actually started to wear black socks and saw how this coincided with other things like Emma's statements and a couple of important Tour stages. I knew of the junkie business, and where they inject, from family members who do social work with drug addicts. But I have no real evidence, I was just trying to provoke people to look into less obvious areas.”

One problem with testing is that nowadays there are apparently 150-odd Epo variations available, each of which is slightly different. And, unless I’m out of date with my information, in order to catch someone the testers have to match what they find to a specific product, but they don’t have the resources to test for 150 different products or usually have the specifications for more than the most common ones, like Cera.
Any rider who gets caught for Cera, when he could be using products from China, Argentina or Lithuania, or even mixing all 3 together, or using next generation products for which no test yet exists (like Hematide) is therefore stupid to two degrees. Or instead, he could be microdosing Epo or Testosteron, the latter together with HGH (for which no successful tests yet exists), or into designer steroids unknown to testers.

And then to make sure he could be masking too. Manzano also said having a soapy hand when urinating will prevent Epo being detected, which if true sounds like the simple old-fashioned detox method I mentioned in the ‘Protocol to mask EPO’ thread; although you can also give out money too - http://www.passadrugtestnow.com/
Or maybe Frei’s method actually works if you remember to drink – I’ve often wondered why, and only in recent years, many riders call team cars for bottles when down to the last 15-20 km of a stage race, only to discard them within 5-10 km. This behaviour has been, to my mind, another less obvious area to look for evidence of doping.

The basic point I was trying to make is that it’s pretty futile concentrating only on testing and profiles in order to try and catch people who dope, you have to look at every aspect and then see if there might be any connection.