British Airways ... well actually the Union of Communists

Frank the tank

Unfortunately when employees in a service industry strike it is the general public who suffer. If you work in manufacturing it's a different case. As I've said previously strike action is a last resort and not something taken easily.

Remember, while it's all very inconvenient for the GP being inconvenienced it's no fun having no wage coming in either.

I just hope it's all resolved sooner rather than later.

guilliano

Just filled out the UDSAW application! Never heard of them before...... after 14 years in retail!!! Shows how much retail companies promote union representation

Seanos

DubaiNeil wrote:

Shock, horror, Dubai isn't perfect - well fancy that....

Clearly not. But you don't tend to hear that in the marketing blurb. Decent rights for migrant workers would be a step in the right direction.

DubaiNeil wrote:

Are there considerably more than 250,000 construction workers in the emirate of Dubai - absolutely.

Human Rights Watch interviewed some of them. Interesting report.

Frank the tank

guilliano wrote:

Just filled out the UDSAW application! Never heard of them before...... after 14 years in retail!!! Shows how much retail companies promote union representation

Glad to be of service.

fast as fupp

DubaiNeil wrote:

Seanos wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

i dont suppose trade unions are allowed in dubai?

Correct, we are paid for what we do, with clear T&C's in the employment contract.

If you don't like the offer you don't sign.

If the employer doesn't adhere to their elements of the T&C's then you take said employer to the Labour Council for adjudication.

Simples, non?

Not that simple for everyone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/uae1106/

Shock, horror, Dubai isn't perfect - well fancy that....

Strangely not reported on that Wiki page is that the workers were paid out, and repatriated at the end of their contract, but that doesn't make such good reading now does it?

I do, however, take 10 years experience of living here over a Wikipedia article and an NGO piece on the worst instances that they can find...

Yes, there is mis-treatment of some individuals employed.

Is this systemic? I don't know.

Have I run a survey of the "250,000" workers stated in the Wiki article, no I haven't. Are there considerably more than 250,000 construction workers in the emirate of Dubai - absolutely.

Do they come of their own free will? Absolutely.

Do the vast majority come to Dubai for a better quality of life for them and their family than they will experience at home? Absolutely.

Am I one of them? Absolutely.

Is this anything to do with the BA strike and TTTT getting what he as a customer paid for? Absolutely not...

what an utterly vile attitude you exhibit- all for yourself and sod anyone else

please dont ever return to the uk

fast as fupp

Frank the tank wrote:

guilliano wrote:

Just filled out the UDSAW application! Never heard of them before...... after 14 years in retail!!! Shows how much retail companies promote union representation

Glad to be of service.

nice one Frank

guilliano

Might be on strike next week!!!

DubaiNeil

alfablue wrote:

Well the issues relate to unilateral changes to T&C's for the workers without their consent. They liked the T&C's, they signed, now the goalposts are moving. The unions did offer £60 in pay cuts, not good enough apparently.

According to the BBC: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8413529.stm)

The dispute started back in November when BA reduced the number of cabin crew on long-haul flights from 15 to 14 and introduced a two-year pay freeze from 2010.

The airline also proposed new contracts for fresh recruits and newly promoted staff. These included a single on-board management grade, no seniority, promotion on merit, and pay set at market rate plus 10%

BA removed the travel concessions of workers who took part in the industrial action, with some also facing disciplinary action.

So, a predominately failing business (according to the financials posted) looks to minimise the increase in its cost base over the next two years, in the face of tough competition in what may well be an unfair playing field (as in national support of flag carriers outside of the UK)

I may well be thick, but I'm not seeing the unilateral changes in T&C's stated here? The last point stated above is a reaction to the prior strike action taken, so not part of the original dispute & strike called...

One question I would like to pose, however, for those supporting the strike action - how would you feel if BA management & shareholders decided it wasn't worth competing anymore and shut-up shop?

Neil

DubaiNeil

fast as fupp wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

Seanos wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

i dont suppose trade unions are allowed in dubai?

Correct, we are paid for what we do, with clear T&C's in the employment contract.

If you don't like the offer you don't sign.

If the employer doesn't adhere to their elements of the T&C's then you take said employer to the Labour Council for adjudication.

Simples, non?

Not that simple for everyone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/uae1106/

Shock, horror, Dubai isn't perfect - well fancy that....

Strangely not reported on that Wiki page is that the workers were paid out, and repatriated at the end of their contract, but that doesn't make such good reading now does it?

I do, however, take 10 years experience of living here over a Wikipedia article and an NGO piece on the worst instances that they can find...

Yes, there is mis-treatment of some individuals employed.

Is this systemic? I don't know.

Have I run a survey of the "250,000" workers stated in the Wiki article, no I haven't. Are there considerably more than 250,000 construction workers in the emirate of Dubai - absolutely.

Do they come of their own free will? Absolutely.

Do the vast majority come to Dubai for a better quality of life for them and their family than they will experience at home? Absolutely.

Am I one of them? Absolutely.

Is this anything to do with the BA strike and TTTT getting what he as a customer paid for? Absolutely not...

what an utterly vile attitude you exhibit- all for yourself and sod anyone else

please dont ever return to the uk

No worries, there are much better places to be

Seanos

fast as fupp wrote:

what an utterly vile attitude you exhibit- all for yourself and sod anyone else

please dont ever return to the uk

It was a good idea to build a soulless desert hellhole for wannabe tax exiles. Just a shame it was built by exploiting the poor.

alfablue

DubaiNeil wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Well the issues relate to unilateral changes to T&C's for the workers without their consent. They liked the T&C's, they signed, now the goalposts are moving. The unions did offer £60 in pay cuts, not good enough apparently.

According to the BBC: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8413529.stm)

The dispute started back in November when BA reduced the number of cabin crew on long-haul flights from 15 to 14 and introduced a two-year pay freeze from 2010.

The airline also proposed new contracts for fresh recruits and newly promoted staff. These included a single on-board management grade, no seniority, promotion on merit, and pay set at market rate plus 10%

BA removed the travel concessions of workers who took part in the industrial action, with some also facing disciplinary action.

So, a predominately failing business (according to the financials posted) looks to minimise the increase in its cost base over the next two years, in the face of tough competition in what may well be an unfair playing field (as in national support of flag carriers outside of the UK)

I may well be thick, but I'm not seeing the unilateral changes in T&C's stated here? The last point stated above is a reaction to the prior strike action taken, so not part of the original dispute & strike called...

One question I would like to pose, however, for those supporting the strike action - how would you feel if BA management & shareholders decided it wasn't worth competing anymore and shut-up shop?

Neil

I wouldn't like to say you are thick, you are probably just coming at this from a particular perspective and value system (probably one I abhor), but reducing the workforce on a flight is a pretty fundamental change, not least because it is a safety role.

BA have been recruiting "new contract" workers over the years to reduce costs and standards for workers, and inevitably for consumers. They have become inpatient and are using this dispute to destroy the position of "old contract" workers. They can't legally make them redundant if they replace them, so this dispute is being nurtured and provoked by Walsh in an attempt to circumvent employment law. Now, remember, when the old contract workers signed up, it wasn't a one way street, BA signed up too! Maybe they should stick to their word, or is honour, fairness and decency something you only expect of employees?

Now, the employees went well beyond the call of duty and volunteered a £60 million pay cut (refused), if this doesn't demonstrate to you a commitment to the health of the business well beyond the destructive and provocative attitude of Walsh / BA, then I think you are beyond reason.

guilliano

Is having one less flight attendant actually going to affect safety? If the plane crashes for instance is that additional member of staff going to make all the difference as to how many people survive a blazing inferno after falling 6 miles?

The main fact is that BA simply can't afford to continue the way they are going with the current contracts. Cutting management bonuses would help just as much as cutting staffing costs, but this is never going to happen. The losers are the shareholders and the customers, both of whom are essential to the existence of BA as a company. All that the strikes are going to achieve is a feeling that the staff are out for what they can get whether this is true or not (we live in a media driven information age where facts are meaningless in comparison to a good story) and the downfall of BA is nigh as customers lose faith

alfablue

I can see that reducing numbers could affect safety and service (not just about crashes :shock: ), but it also means more work for existing workers and so worsens conditions, and to accept it once is the thin end of the wedge, the workers would effectively make themselves powerless to defend further cuts, which would surely come. A voluntary pay cut was rejected. There are solutions, but BA really want blood on the carpet :roll:

tebbit

As a contract worker you can get royally shafted, in my case finished in a day, when at Network Rail who had road shows saying come and work for us as staff, then didn't actually employ many of the contract workers. Pure window dressing, the days of unions flexing their muscles over political dogma are long since gone thankfully and they do provide a real quantifiable benefits for their members.

Maybe they should stick to their word, or is honour, fairness and decency something you only expect of employees?

- Don't you know loyalty from an employer to an employee is only a one way street, the employee gives loyalty, the employer reacts to market conditions and does whatever it can. :evil:

I mainly fly Ukrainian International Airlines, which isn't too bad, either that or KLM or Air France, cos that is who my employer's got the contract with, I don't fly for pleasure and I don't work abroad for some ideological dogma, it is where the work is at the moment. When I can get back to dear old Blighty and get a stable job, I will with great pleasure.

ilm_zero7

alfablue wrote:

I can see that reducing numbers could affect safety and service (not just about crashes :shock: ), but it also means more work for existing workers and so worsens conditions, and to accept it once is the thin end of the wedge, the workers would effectively make themselves powerless to defend further cuts, which would surely come. A voluntary pay cut was rejected. There are solutions, but BA really want blood on the carpet :roll:

true - very true

fast as fupp

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

Seanos wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

i dont suppose trade unions are allowed in dubai?

Correct, we are paid for what we do, with clear T&C's in the employment contract.

If you don't like the offer you don't sign.

If the employer doesn't adhere to their elements of the T&C's then you take said employer to the Labour Council for adjudication.

Simples, non?

Not that simple for everyone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/uae1106/

Shock, horror, Dubai isn't perfect - well fancy that....

Strangely not reported on that Wiki page is that the workers were paid out, and repatriated at the end of their contract, but that doesn't make such good reading now does it?

I do, however, take 10 years experience of living here over a Wikipedia article and an NGO piece on the worst instances that they can find...

Yes, there is mis-treatment of some individuals employed.

Is this systemic? I don't know.

Have I run a survey of the "250,000" workers stated in the Wiki article, no I haven't. Are there considerably more than 250,000 construction workers in the emirate of Dubai - absolutely.

Do they come of their own free will? Absolutely.

Do the vast majority come to Dubai for a better quality of life for them and their family than they will experience at home? Absolutely.

Am I one of them? Absolutely.

Is this anything to do with the BA strike and TTTT getting what he as a customer paid for? Absolutely not...

what an utterly vile attitude you exhibit- all for yourself and sod anyone else

please dont ever return to the uk

No worries, there are much better places to be

ah! true patriotism

you'll soon come scuttling back when johnny forruner gets uppity again

iainment

TheTalkingTurboTrainer wrote:

Bunneh wrote:

It's a shame BA can't bring in all those jobless people (such as myself), train them, and let them have the strikers' jobs. Not that I understand how the system works...

Can you hand out food and point at an emergency sign? GREAT! you're hired!

Are you female and look good in a tight uniform? Sorry, please apply next door at Virgin

If that is what you think rthey are paid for then why on earth book with BA. You need an airline where safety is not factored into the job.

You are an angry man aren't you.

Av it

softlad wrote:

TheTalkingTurboTrainer wrote:

'Yes' so selfish of me to want to be able to go on the flight I'd paid for and stay in the accomodation I'd paid for so that I could train for the race I'd paid to race in.

it's not a race.

ha ha ha softlads right its just a bike ride in the compnay of 8000 others. done it 8 times and its very funny to see middleaged guys getting worked up about it.

this year is a great route, not too steep but a grinding killer goood stuff.

Turbo you should train for it, thjis weekend wouold be good

Av it

iainment wrote:

TheTalkingTurboTrainer wrote:

Bunneh wrote:

It's a shame BA can't bring in all those jobless people (such as myself), train them, and let them have the strikers' jobs. Not that I understand how the system works...

Can you hand out food and point at an emergency sign? GREAT! you're hired!

Are you female and look good in a tight uniform? Sorry, please apply next door at Virgin

If that is what you think rthey are paid for then why on earth book with BA. You need an airline where safety is not factored into the job.

You are an angry man aren't you.

ha ha these are cabin crew, very few real responsibilities and about to lose their jobs. Quite right too if they dont want to pull in the right direction. plenty would take their place

Av it

fast as fupp wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

Seanos wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

i dont suppose trade unions are allowed in dubai?

Correct, we are paid for what we do, with clear T&C's in the employment contract.

If you don't like the offer you don't sign.

If the employer doesn't adhere to their elements of the T&C's then you take said employer to the Labour Council for adjudication.

Simples, non?

Not that simple for everyone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/uae1106/

Shock, horror, Dubai isn't perfect - well fancy that....

Strangely not reported on that Wiki page is that the workers were paid out, and repatriated at the end of their contract, but that doesn't make such good reading now does it?

I do, however, take 10 years experience of living here over a Wikipedia article and an NGO piece on the worst instances that they can find...

Yes, there is mis-treatment of some individuals employed.

Is this systemic? I don't know.

Have I run a survey of the "250,000" workers stated in the Wiki article, no I haven't. Are there considerably more than 250,000 construction workers in the emirate of Dubai - absolutely.

Do they come of their own free will? Absolutely.

Do the vast majority come to Dubai for a better quality of life for them and their family than they will experience at home? Absolutely.

Am I one of them? Absolutely.

Is this anything to do with the BA strike and TTTT getting what he as a customer paid for? Absolutely not...

what an utterly vile attitude you exhibit- all for yourself and sod anyone else

please dont ever return to the uk

No worries, there are much better places to be

ah! true patriotism

you'll soon come scuttling back when johnny forruner gets uppity again

dont worry dubai neil, fast as fupp is a left leaning commie of the morraly convicted type. hot air and no substance rather like the exhaust of a ba jet

bazbadger

What kind of bike does a 'left leaning commie' ride then? Presume some sort of stabilizer?

finchy

TheTalkingTurboTrainer wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

I don't know about this strike in particular, but speaking in general, any union-knockers should have a look at any country where the workers don't have strong representation and see how they get treated there.

I'd say that's a massive generalisation. You seem to be comparing western countries to other countries such as China? Perhaps I'm wrong.

Nevertheless, there are many countries where there aren't huge unions around to dictate to the companies. I'm from one of them.

I'm talking more about countries just below the West - places like Central Europe, where they can just close a factory with a few weeks notice and move to China because the workforce is getting paid a whole, massive, £1 an hour, or where companies get away with not paying their workers for months on end.

So, in wonderful Australia, how do the workers get their grievances settled?

finchy

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

i dont suppose trade unions are allowed in dubai?

Correct, we are paid for what we do, with clear T&C's in the employment contract.

If you don't like the offer you don't sign.

If the employer doesn't adhere to their elements of the T&C's then you take said employer to the Labour Council for adjudication.

Simples, non?

And how is life for people outside the little fantasy bubble of western ex-pats? All nice and rosy for the workers? No hideous exploitation? No keeping people in what amounts to slavery?

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 64368.html

Nice to know that you're OK though.

fast as fupp

Av it wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

Seanos wrote:

DubaiNeil wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

i dont suppose trade unions are allowed in dubai?

Correct, we are paid for what we do, with clear T&C's in the employment contract.

If you don't like the offer you don't sign.

If the employer doesn't adhere to their elements of the T&C's then you take said employer to the Labour Council for adjudication.

Simples, non?

Not that simple for everyone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai


http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/uae1106/

Shock, horror, Dubai isn't perfect - well fancy that....

Strangely not reported on that Wiki page is that the workers were paid out, and repatriated at the end of their contract, but that doesn't make such good reading now does it?

I do, however, take 10 years experience of living here over a Wikipedia article and an NGO piece on the worst instances that they can find...

Yes, there is mis-treatment of some individuals employed.

Is this systemic? I don't know.

Have I run a survey of the "250,000" workers stated in the Wiki article, no I haven't. Are there considerably more than 250,000 construction workers in the emirate of Dubai - absolutely.

Do they come of their own free will? Absolutely.

Do the vast majority come to Dubai for a better quality of life for them and their family than they will experience at home? Absolutely.

Am I one of them? Absolutely.

Is this anything to do with the BA strike and TTTT getting what he as a customer paid for? Absolutely not...

what an utterly vile attitude you exhibit- all for yourself and sod anyone else

please dont ever return to the uk

No worries, there are much better places to be

ah! true patriotism

you'll soon come scuttling back when johnny forruner gets uppity again

dont worry dubai neil, fast as fupp is a left leaning commie of the morraly convicted type. hot air and no substance rather like the exhaust of a ba jet

no doubt you spend your time blowing goats

softlad

bazbadger wrote:

What kind of bike does a 'left leaning commie' ride then? Presume some sort of stabilizer?

on the upside, he would be good at cycle speedway....

point of order though - are there any communists that don't lean to the left..?? I've never met a right-leaning commie......or are they just called fascists...??

Alain Quay

"All I wanted to do was go to Toulouse to train for the Etape"

Am I the only one that thinks air travel should be done a bit sparingly,
due to err climate change, pollution, dwindling resources, what future
generations will inherit and all that?

MattC59

I'm with the TalkingTurboTrainer !!

As I understand it, these are the reasons for the strike:

1) BA reduced the number of cabin crew on long-haul flights from 15 to 14.
2) BA introduced a two-year pay freeze from 2010.
3) The airline also proposed new contracts for fresh recruits and newly promoted staff. These included a single on-board management grade, no seniority, promotion on merit.
4) Pay is set at market rate plus 10%.
5) This is a new one this time around; Perks (which, by definition are fringe benefit, ie, not contractual) such as cheap flights have been removed from strikers.

According to a 2009 survey for the Civil Aviation Authority, BA's cabin crew are well paid in industry terms with average earnings of £29,900 a year, including bonuses and allowances, compared with £14,400 at Virgin Atlantic.

Now, in answer to the above:
1) We're in a recession, most companies are making redundancies, why do BA cabin crew think they're special and immune from this ? My company has certainly done so !
2) We're in a recession, most companies are making pay freezes why do BA cabin crew think they're special and immune from this ? I'm currently on a pay freeze.
3) No disrespect to anyone, but do they REALLY need a management and seniority structure to act as airborn housekeepers ?
4) New recruits get a better rate of pay, by 10% than the market rate. I guess that if they don't like that, they can go and work else where. Essentially, the strikers are striking about something that doesn't effect them !
5) Perfectly reasonable I think, why should BA continue to give benefits and subsidise those who are causing damage to the company.

Bottom line............... This is a strike because the union thinks it's members should be immune from the recession, whilst the rest of us struggle through it.

IT'S A RECESSION YOU MORONS, WE'RE ALL EFFECTED. IF YOU CONTINUE TO STRIKE, YOU COST BA MORE MONEY, PUTTING THEIR FUTURE AT RISK. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO STRIKE ABOUT THEN ?

There have been cuts and pay freezes at the company I work for, should I go on strike ? Oh, hang on, I'd be sacked if I did.

Monkeys !!!

Seanos

Av it wrote:

dont worry dubai neil, fast as fupp is a left leaning commie of the morraly convicted type. hot air and no substance rather like the exhaust of a ba jet

Hmmm, should you really be expressing intemperate views which lack complexity and balance? Maybe you should have taken more time to think about the possible offence your words might cause and express yourself more carefully and positively

bazbadger

Seanos wrote:

Av it wrote:

dont worry dubai neil, fast as fupp is a left leaning commie of the morraly convicted type. hot air and no substance rather like the exhaust of a ba jet

Hmmm, should you really be expressing intemperate views which lack complexity and balance? Maybe you should have taken more time to think about the possible offence your words might cause and express yourself more carefully and positively

aahhh, straight from the college of pious posts! Or were you actually being funny?

Fast as fupp seems to be able to well look after himself in terms of dishing it as well - so i wouldn't worry.

fast as fupp

bazbadger wrote:

What kind of bike does a 'left leaning commie' ride then? Presume some sort of stabilizer?

a wilier!