Stamina. All about fuelling?
inseine
Posts: 5,788
I'm a reasonible cyclist but I really hit the wall after 4 hours or so of hard effort (in a sportive for example) and can only put it down to my genes and 'fuelling'. I mention this because I did a 207km yesterday (part of my Marmotte preparation) and I'm a match for my club mates up to the 150ish mark but i so hit the wall after that. Two weeks ago i did 200 and I felt great but it was flat, this time the hills got me which is frustrating because I'm a fairly good climber. This always happens at this point and I can only think i should eat more but it's not like my mates do but they are all bigger than me (more fuel stores or is that nonsense?).
7 weeks to go and I really need to improve!
7 weeks to go and I really need to improve!
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200-250kcal per hour and plenty of fluids and electrolytes (think 500ml per hour) is the best thing you can do to maximise your endurance. If you are hitting the wall even doing that, then all I can say is more training, or pace yourself better.0
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smithy1.0 wrote:200-250kcal per hour and plenty of fluids and electrolytes (think 500ml per hour) is the best thing you can do to maximise your endurance. If you are hitting the wall even doing that, then all I can say is more training, or pace yourself better.
Out of interest how do you get to the 200-250kcal an hour figure? I've generally been assuming that an hour on the bike burns more like 1,000kcal, so consuming 200-250kcal an hour is still likely to see a big deficit.0 -
phreak wrote:smithy1.0 wrote:200-250kcal per hour and plenty of fluids and electrolytes (think 500ml per hour) is the best thing you can do to maximise your endurance. If you are hitting the wall even doing that, then all I can say is more training, or pace yourself better.
Out of interest how do you get to the 200-250kcal an hour figure? I've generally been assuming that an hour on the bike burns more like 1,000kcal, so consuming 200-250kcal an hour is still likely to see a big deficit.
In a 1hr race I will burn around 800-1000cals (my garmin says about 1200-1500 but they over estimate by a huge amount).
An interval session I burn around 650-750, a steady 2 hr ride I will burn about 500-600
(These figures are obtained from my powermeter which measures actual work done in kilojoules. They are about as accurate as you can get without testing in a lab.)
My nutritionist suggests about 30-60g carbs per hour on a long ride for me.0 -
I had a similar problem on the FW last w/e except i struggled from the off!
I just never got going at all. All i can think of is that i over fuelled, is that possible?
I'd had a good breakfast, energy bar,banana and sports drink in the car then more drink and another bar before the start.
I kept my fuel intake high all the way round and althogh i finished i grovelled the whole way. I also had a headache for 50+ miles.
I was so dissapointed as my time 11hr+ did not represent the amount of traing i did.0 -
Rutlandblue wrote:I had a similar problem on the FW last w/e except i struggled from the off!
I just never got going at all. All i can think of is that i over fuelled, is that possible?
I'd had a good breakfast, energy bar,banana and sports drink in the car then more drink and another bar before the start.
I kept my fuel intake high all the way round and althogh i finished i grovelled the whole way. I also had a headache for 50+ miles.
I was so dissapointed as my time 11hr+ did not represent the amount of traing i did.
Possibly due to the type of fuel you are having.
A load of high GI stuff before riding leads to an insulin spike followed by a 'slump'.
Best fuelling up beforehand on low GI stuff like porridge oats, berries etc. with water...
I'd highly recommend giving Barry a ring at http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com, his advice has transformed my riding!0 -
NapoleonD wrote:phreak wrote:smithy1.0 wrote:200-250kcal per hour and plenty of fluids and electrolytes (think 500ml per hour) is the best thing you can do to maximise your endurance. If you are hitting the wall even doing that, then all I can say is more training, or pace yourself better.
Out of interest how do you get to the 200-250kcal an hour figure? I've generally been assuming that an hour on the bike burns more like 1,000kcal, so consuming 200-250kcal an hour is still likely to see a big deficit.
In a 1hr race I will burn around 800-1000cals (my garmin says about 1200-1500 but they over estimate by a huge amount).
An interval session I burn around 650-750, a steady 2 hr ride I will burn about 500-600
(These figures are obtained from my powermeter which measures actual work done in kilojoules. They are about as accurate as you can get without testing in a lab.)
My nutritionist suggests about 30-60g carbs per hour on a long ride for me.
This article - http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/a ... -1,00.html - suggests a typical Tour stage can burn through 7,000 kcal, which seems to fit in with the online calculators I've used of around 1,000 calories per hour for a sportive.
200kcal consumed seems to leave a big deficit. In the article above it sounds like they're consuming around 1,800kcal just from their bottles each stage. Add in a pretty extensive musette and they seem to be consuming well in excess of 3,000kcal. So if they're on the bike for 5 hours it would seem to be anything from 200-300% more than the 200-250kcal recommended earlier.
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... cess-20344 has a bit more on this, and also suggests several thousand kcals burnt during a sportive.0 -
It's usually exceptionally difficult if not impossible to consume anywhere near the calories metabolised when riding hard for long periods. You simply can't ingest food quickly enough. A calorie deficit is to be expected.
1g of CHO per hour per kg body mass is about the limit. 1.5g if you have some readily digestible variety.
Consuming calories while riding hard is something that needs to be trained.
It's also why lifting threshold power is so important. It enables you to ride at the same sub maximal intensities for longer since the rate of glycogen use is lowered (it enables a greater reliance on FFA as a fuel source) and since we have about 80 times the stored fuel in the form of fats than glycogen, we are capable of greater endurance at a given pace.0 -
phreak wrote:
This article - http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/a ... -1,00.html - suggests a typical Tour stage can burn through 7,000 kcal, which seems to fit in with the online calculators I've used of around 1,000 calories per hour for a sportive.
A pro cyclist burns a lot more calories than us mere mortals whilst racing!!
The online calculators I've looked at seem to be about 20-30% over my actual expenditure.0 -
727kcal/hour for me today riding a 90 mile route in the Peaks that I'd say is comparable to a typical sportive route (according to PowerTap)
Like NapD I'd only burn 1000kcal in a race or riding close to threshold.
I didn't consume anywhere near the 4000kcal that I burnt though. Probably half that at most.More problems but still living....0 -
NapoleonD wrote:
I'd highly recommend giving Barry a ring at http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com, his advice has transformed my riding!
id be interested but can u tell me more, what does he do for you, is it a diet pan, or diet in conjunction with training plan, is it a one off list or a continously updated plan, whats the cost like etc etc0 -
36spoke wrote:NapoleonD wrote:
I'd highly recommend giving Barry a ring at http://www.optimumnutrition4sport.com, his advice has transformed my riding!
id be interested but can u tell me more, what does he do for you, is it a diet pan, or diet in conjunction with training plan, is it a one off list or a continously updated plan, whats the cost like etc etc
The best person to answer that is the man himself!
Diet plan in conjunction with my training plan. Very detailed questionaire you fill in and send him, he does a very detailed rept, then you see him for a consultation for fine tuning.
Been doing it for 3 weeks now and the results are, frankly, astounding!0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:It's usually exceptionally difficult if not impossible to consume anywhere near the calories metabolised when riding hard for long periods. You simply can't ingest food quickly enough. A calorie deficit is to be expected.
Amen to that. I find it almost impossible not only to eat the food but digesting it after eating.
Even sipping water is difficult when riding hard. I take enough in eventually but have a few chokes on the way.
Consuming calories while riding hard is something that needs to be trained.
That is good news. 8)
It's also why lifting threshold power is so important. It enables you to ride at the same sub maximal intensities for longer since the rate of glycogen use is lowered (it enables a greater reliance on FFA as a fuel source) and since we have about 80 times the stored fuel in the form of fats than glycogen, we are capable of greater endurance at a given pace.
So you burn more fat than glycogen when threshold power is raised?0 -
phreak wrote:smithy1.0 wrote:200-250kcal per hour and plenty of fluids and electrolytes (think 500ml per hour) is the best thing you can do to maximise your endurance. If you are hitting the wall even doing that, then all I can say is more training, or pace yourself better.
Out of interest how do you get to the 200-250kcal an hour figure? I've generally been assuming that an hour on the bike burns more like 1,000kcal, so consuming 200-250kcal an hour is still likely to see a big deficit.
It's said that your body can only absorb that much per hour while exercising. You just have to replace what you've burned after.0 -
The closer any given power output is to your current FTP, then the more that your body uses glycogen as the main fuel source.ireland57 wrote:So you burn more fat than glycogen when threshold power is raised?
ie if you ride at 200W and your FTP is 230W, you will be metabolising more glycogen (rather than fat) than if you ride at the same power output but your FTP is 300W.0 -
Thanx NapoleonD.
As for using glycogen stores, surely that only happens when you havent fuelled enough?0 -
smithy1.0 wrote:phreak wrote:smithy1.0 wrote:200-250kcal per hour and plenty of fluids and electrolytes (think 500ml per hour) is the best thing you can do to maximise your endurance. If you are hitting the wall even doing that, then all I can say is more training, or pace yourself better.
Out of interest how do you get to the 200-250kcal an hour figure? I've generally been assuming that an hour on the bike burns more like 1,000kcal, so consuming 200-250kcal an hour is still likely to see a big deficit.
It's said that your body can only absorb that much per hour while exercising. You just have to replace what you've burned after.
In general the maximum carbohydrates we can digest is 60g per hour, this is simply because glucose can't be absorbed any quicker. The only carbohydrate that is absorbed differently is Fructose - it is very sweet. That is why most of the major sports nutrition companies have introduced a 2:1 fructose ratio - High5 were the first and explain it really well in their Race Faster Guides (see their website). with that you can absorb 90g of carbohydrates per hour - makes a big differenece (a third more!) but to benefit from it you have to take more on as well of course.
You normally have 400g of carbohydrate already stored in your muscles before you start but it won't last forever so from the start you need to keep this topped up - You will not be able to replace everything you burn so refuelling after your ride is important too. But if you find you slow down dramatically during your ride it means your carbohydrate stores are depleted and your are running mainly on fat. This is when you really should think about your nutrition strategy and how you can maximise your carbohydrate uptake.0 -
Or when you attempt to sustain a pace higher than you are capable of, or ride with regular efforts higher than threshold (e.g. lots of hard efforts/surges).Rutlandblue wrote:Thanx NapoleonD.
As for using glycogen stores, surely that only happens when you havent fuelled enough?0 -
Or when you attempt to sustain a pace higher than you are capable of, or ride with regular efforts higher than threshold (e.g. lots of hard efforts/surges).
I understand this but find that I'm blowing after around 4 hours whereas my club mates who I'm as strong as over shorter distances aren't, which leads me to believe it's at least partly energy levels. Maybe they pace themselves a little more sensibly too.
As far as the 60g of CHO per hour, are there any negative side effects of taking on more?0 -
How you can ingest is an individual thing to be experimented with. But if you try to eat more than your body can manage, well you'll likely feel pretty ordinary, stomach upset etc, maybe won't feel like riding hard.inseine wrote:Or when you attempt to sustain a pace higher than you are capable of, or ride with regular efforts higher than threshold (e.g. lots of hard efforts/surges).
I understand this but find that I'm blowing after around 4 hours whereas my club mates who I'm as strong as over shorter distances aren't, which leads me to believe it's at least partly energy levels. Maybe they pace themselves a little more sensibly too.
As far as the 60g of CHO per hour, are there any negative side effects of taking on more?0
