First attempt with SPD's today in 30 mins

weeksy59

BAck on the flast for 90 mins today... perfectly happy

mfereborn

This is slightly gutting because i've just spent £29 on pedals, shoes and cleats simply expecting them to benefit my riding!

Hopefully i'll like them!

I do have a theory though, with normal pedals you rely on each leg in unison to provide the power to drive you forward however with SPD's i believe it'll be possible to ensure you transmit power through both legs all the time. I'm yet to use SPD's but im hoping they benefit my riding and enable my 'resting' leg to have more of an input over my 'working' leg.

I'll do a report once i finish my build!

Paul 8v

yeehaamcgee wrote:

ireland57 wrote:

It's helped me lift the rear of the bike over hard bits as well.

See, there are quite a few of us who are perfectly capable of lifting the rear of the bike with flat pedals.

I meant lifting up on the pedals as in using the upstroke to help drive the chain rather than to jump the rear wheel. Pulling up on the upstroke as well is like turning the afterburners on 8)

Broonster

Had a nightmare with my new Eggbeaters at Glentress today! :oops:

I've been using Crank Brothers Candy pedals on my hardtail for a couple of months, but mainly been doing road/fire road rides to get used to them. I use Eggbeaters on my new Anthem though and today was my first 'proper' ride on the rough stuff at a trail centre on some more technical ground. Well, I fell off 3 times! I say 'fell' but it was more flopped over to the side after losing momentum going up hill. I'm gonna have some seriously big bruises tomorrow. But, more gutting was the fact I have scratched & chipped the paintwork on my 2-week old Anthem already as a result :evil:

After my 'flops' I was really, really nervous about doing more of the technical stuff. I'm still kinda hoping that it will be something that I get used to and that it will become second nature for my brain to engage and tell my feet to 'twist' before coming off the pedals in a nano-second? It was more annoying than anything else, as I was trying sooo hard to make my brain think about taking my feet out properly. But I guess you can't always predict when you're gonna need to get your feet out in a hurry, such as a wobbly moment or a near 'off'.

Will certainly be keeping my V12 / Five-Ten combo on my Reign for trail centres for the foreseeable future though and, hopefully, will get the hang of the Eggbeaters on the Anthem (no tension adjust :roll: ) in due course, mainly for more natural trails.

Badly Bruised Broonster :roll:

itguy2

Well I picked up my new Orange Crush today and have had XT SPDs fitted to it from the outset.

I've never used SPDs before but I have to say (after only about 5 miles of riding) they're great.

I can really see the benefit and I didn't find them quite as scary as I was expecting.

Had 3 potential falling moments - two of which where when I had just forgotten I was wearing them and 1 where I got in a muddle at a gate and then (luckily) the wall was there for me to reach out to!

I have no doubt they'll do me just fine, but I really hope I won't come off because of them!!

tom101

Apparently a good way to improve your pedal twiddling with SPDs is to cycle using only one leg for a time, then switch to the other one.

Paul 8v

That works pretty well just be aware you're using muscles that aren't normally used s you'll get tired really quickly. It's easier to practice that on a turbo trainer as you don't have to worry where the other leg is hanging about.

gonga

Broonster wrote:

Had a nightmare with my new Eggbeaters at Glentress today! :oops:

I've been using Crank Brothers Candy pedals on my hardtail for a couple of months, but mainly been doing road/fire road rides to get used to them. I use Eggbeaters on my new Anthem though and today was my first 'proper' ride on the rough stuff at a trail centre on some more technical ground. Well, I fell off 3 times! I say 'fell' but it was more flopped over to the side after losing momentum going up hill. I'm gonna have some seriously big bruises tomorrow. But, more gutting was the fact I have scratched & chipped the paintwork on my 2-week old Anthem already as a result :evil:

After my 'flops' I was really, really nervous about doing more of the technical stuff. I'm still kinda hoping that it will be something that I get used to and that it will become second nature for my brain to engage and tell my feet to 'twist' before coming off the pedals in a nano-second? It was more annoying than anything else, as I was trying sooo hard to make my brain think about taking my feet out properly. But I guess you can't always predict when you're gonna need to get your feet out in a hurry, such as a wobbly moment or a near 'off'.

Will certainly be keeping my V12 / Five-Ten combo on my Reign for trail centres for the foreseeable future though and, hopefully, will get the hang of the Eggbeaters on the Anthem (no tension adjust :roll: ) in due course, mainly for more natural trails.

Badly Bruised Broonster :roll:

I had a similar incident on one of the technical switchbacks at whinlatter.
Even after it became second nature to unclip i was still not fast enough and fell comically.
Bought some wellgo m1's soon after and haven't looked back!

Anonymous

Paul 8v wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

ireland57 wrote:

It's helped me lift the rear of the bike over hard bits as well.

See, there are quite a few of us who are perfectly capable of lifting the rear of the bike with flat pedals.

I meant lifting up on the pedals as in using the upstroke to help drive the chain rather than to jump the rear wheel. Pulling up on the upstroke as well is like turning the afterburners on 8)

still not convinced. If you can put your entire bodyweight onto a pedal in the downstroke, then pulling up will make a negligible, if any difference.
There have been studies carried out into this, which all failed to conclusively prove any greater power output or efficiency.

RealMan

John Stevenson wrote:

So talk of pulling up is irrelevant because people don't do that.

Guess I'm just a freak then.

yeehaamcgee wrote:

If you can put your entire bodyweight onto a pedal in the downstroke, then pulling up will make a negligible, if any difference.

Go put one foot on a set of scales. Put the other foot under a table or low shelf, and push it up with your foot. Suddenly the scales reading increases, plus you have the force on the shelf/table.

Anonymous

RealMan wrote:

John Stevenson wrote:

So talk of pulling up is irrelevant because people don't do that.

Guess I'm just a freak then.

yeehaamcgee wrote:

If you can put your entire bodyweight onto a pedal in the downstroke, then pulling up will make a negligible, if any difference.

Go put one foot on a set of scales. Put the other foot under a table or low shelf, and push it up with your foot. Suddenly the scales reading increases, plus you have the force on the shelf/table.

I think a physics lesson is in order.
But, briefly... here's a thought experiment that may explain it:

Replace those scales with a bar pivoting around a central point. Now, attatch a forcemeter to the frontmost side of that arm.
Stand one that frontmost side of the arm with all your bodyweight, and see the force reading. Now, try lifting the rear of the bar with the other foot, and see the reading. Not much difference eh?

And if you're arguing about "but you're seated, you lift against the saddle" then I call bullcrap. If you're putting your entire weight through the downstroke, then you will not be supporting yourself in any way on the saddle.
Hence the results of several studies.

RealMan

yeehaamcgee wrote:

And if you're arguing about "but you're seated, you lift against the saddle" then I call bullcrap. If you're putting your entire weight through the downstroke, then you will not be supporting yourself in any way on the saddle.

But what about when you're not putting your entire weight on the down stroke? eg: for 90% or so of the time you're pedalling?

When standing I do believe you may be right and the up stroke is only small, once you're actually up to speed. Its very important when you're accelerating though. And when you're sitting I'd say its just as important.

Your thought experiment is a little confusing. You mean to balance a bar on a point at the bars midpoint, then to apply your body weight on one end, and lift the other end of the bar up with one foot? That would increase the force, and I imagine quite significantly, as instead of just your weight, you've suddenly got all your muscle going into it as well.

Anonymous

Nope, the net result is that you would not increase the force, in the thought experiment example.

But, my point is that there is no theoretical or practical reason why you should be producing more power with SPDs.
If you're accelerating, you should be putting as much power through the pedal as possible, and the most efficient way to do that is to force downwards with all your weight. Using your legs, there is simply no more power you can apply.

Anonymous

Nope, the net result is that you would not increase the force, in the thought experiment example.

But, my point is that there is no theoretical or practical reason why you should be producing more power with SPDs.
If you're accelerating, you should be putting as much power through the pedal as possible, and the most efficient way to do that is to force downwards with all your weight. Using your legs, there is simply no more power you can apply.

RealMan

You're just not thinking about this clearly.


Putting all your weight on one pedal outputs a force of mgN. Where m is your mass, and g is acceleration due to gravity on the earth's surface.

If you then apply an upwards force of xN to the other pedal, then the force outputted is (mg+x)N. x is dependant on the amount of power the rider can output. It also means if you're a fat weak bloke, then you probably don't have to worry about it. But if you're a slim fit guy, it makes a big difference.


If you still don't understand, then there is something quite simple you can do if you have a set of SPDs. Go out to a bike with SPDs. Put it in its highest gear. Try and start moving with only one foot and one down stroke. Then try again, but allow the other foot to provide an upstroke. In certain situations you will even be able to provide more power on the upstroke then the down stroke.

NDawn

I too use the upstrokes, but typically only for that little extra oomph to get me over the crest when I'm in too high a gear

Anonymous

RealMan wrote:

You're just not thinking about this clearly.

No, you don't understand physics.

and as for

Go out to a bike with SPDs.

I did, for several years. Then realised it was a con.

RealMan

Guess you're just smarter then all the pro BMXers, DHers, road racers, track cyclists, XC racers that use SPDs or similar systems, plus their coaches, sponsors, mechanics, technicians, etc. etc. etc.

And me.

It was nice to have a reasoned argument for once with someone here. I figured it was bound to end in you giving up and the inevitable wit

yeehaamcgee wrote:

No, you don't understand physics.

but you did last longer then I thought before giving in..

Anonymous

I'm not claiming to be "smarter" than anyone except you.
I'm explaining in simple terms to you what every study has discovered about the pros and cons of SPDs. The power and efficiency idea has been proven several times to be incorrect. What they DO allow you to do however, is stick to your bike like flies on poo.
A professional, and by that I mean Olympic grade cyclist actually puts all his or her power through with their leading foot. What was found is that most "mere mortals" do not, in fact unweight their trailing foot even when they sincerely believe they do so.
However, with your shoe stuck to the pedal, and trying your damndest to lift the pedal, what you are actually achieveing is properly unweighting the trailing pedal.

And as far as a reasoned argument is concerned, I've never seen you have anything of the sort to offer. You have ill-conceived or ill-understood beliefs. That is all.

If you want a reasoned argument, go and read some of the reports on the matter, rather than diving in with half-formed conclusions. THAT, is not science, that is quasi-religion.

RealMan

That's better.


Now, rather then believing a bunch of "studies" probably funded by the same guys who make flat pedals, wouldn't you rather believe hundreds of thousands of professionals combined years of experience, plus the laws of physics?

Now the only way to put power down through a lead foot (and I mean power, not just your body weight) is to apply some kind of upwards force. This can be done either through the trailing foots pedal, or through the handlebars. Its much much much more efficient to use the trail foot to put force to driving the wheel rather then bending the handlebars.

Cferg

But surely, by putting your full body weight onto the leading pedal, and pulling up, you're not pulling any weight off it and are only pulling up on the opposite pedal which is only going to be of benefit as the stroke will have more power through it. By shifting your weight all to the side of the leading pedal doesn't mean you cannot still pull up on the other pedal . . . Gotta agree with RealMans arguement here.

hamstrich

I think that RealMan is talking sense. if you don't pull up at all then the absolute limit to the downward force you can apply is your bodyweight. It's fully possible to put ALL of your weight on the foot performing the downstroke and still pull up hard with the other - which increases the force on the downward pedal. How can you argue that this doesn't increase torque?

What the studies have shown, as far as I'm aware, is that in general the pedalling technique of high-level cyclists involves application of force only on the downstroke - which suggests that this is the most efficient way of doing it. But have these studies looked at how technique changes during short bursts at maximum intensity? I very much doubt that road racers manage get up to >40mph in a sprint finish without any upward force.

Will Snow

RealMan wrote:

Now, rather then believing a bunch of "studies" probably funded by the same guys who make flat pedals, wouldn't you rather believe hundreds of thousands of professionals combined years of experience, plus the laws of physics?

First of all, ha! So who are these studies funded by, big companies such as shimano (who make mainly... err clipped in pedals) or boutique flat pedal companies, such as burgtech (who are so small they couldnt afford the huge expense of a scientific study). According to you, the latter.

Equally, just because some Dhers etc use spds does not nessecarily make them more efficient. Its all about technique, Peaty for example rides more on the front of his pedals, this is very difficult to do on flats. Hill sits in the middle of the bike, with his feet back:- this suits flat pedals more.

Next point is, in MTB cadence is not as important as technical skill. Constant changes in speed, blasts of acceleration etc. mean that there simply isnt time to start analysing each pedal stroke to make sure each stroke is a pull up push down.

Plus, I dont agree with your physics. Bearing in mind the cranks are fixed to eachother, its always going to be faster to push down with muscle power and gravity on your side, than it is to pull up (using muscles that cyclists use less) against gravity. Course a good way of testing this would be to get a clipped in rider with only one pedal:- can they propel themselves bearing in mind they can only push down half the time?

Also in another thread you said braking with two fingers was wrong, so Im annoyed with you. Try having hands that are 20cm long, it is literally impossible to pull the levers with one finger before it hits your other knuckle before the biting point. Anyway that was a bit off topic.

supersonic

It's fully possible to put ALL of your weight on the foot performing the downstroke and still pull up hard with the other - which increases the force on the downward pedal. How can you argue that this doesn't increase torque?

It depends on the exact nature of the pedal stroke, and hence why some companies produce these offset cranks and oval chainrings.

Pedalling when standing I would argue that the force is not cumulative . It doesn't add to it when pulling up - it balances it out. As you pull up the other pedal falls away.

When sitting the mechanics are different. But pushing down lifts you off the seat, and pulling up pulls you into it. It may at the end again average itself out.

The perfect pedal stroke is one where the force is always at a tangent to the crank arm. SPDs may favour this scenario. But to say you cannot do the same with flats I would say is not true.

toasty

John Stevenson wrote:

"My preference is better and you're a n3wB".

+1 :P

meesterbond

I can't comment on the quality of the study, but a quick google found this..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.

The last sentence is the interesting one... If I read it right, yes you can improve pedalling effectiveness by pulling up, but to the detriment of net mechanical efficiency...

Kubase

I've got back into cycling recently after years of BMX riding as a kid/yoof and a brief foray into MTB riding in my early 20's. I started with SPD's as I read everywhere that this was the way to do it. I got used to it pretty quickly, in terms of clipping in and out and not falling off every five minutes, but for a reason I still cannot put a finger on, being mechanically attached to the bike killed the fun of riding for me. I did some clipped in rides, and I enjoyed them, but I now use good flats and 5:10's and I get the same buzz riding singletrack as I did blasting around skate parks as a kid.

So that's the bottom line for me. Flats are more fun.

llamafarmer

Yawn

This sums it up for me:

John Stevenson wrote:

I really don't buy talk of efficiency though - you adapt to what you use and get 'efficient' using it. And talk of 'better technique' is just snotty wibble that means "My preference is better and you're a n3wB".

Some of us like clipless, some of us like flats. We all like mountain bikes

Anonymous

meesterbond wrote:

I can't comment on the quality of the study, but a quick google found this..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807

The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.

The last sentence is the interesting one... If I read it right, yes you can improve pedalling effectiveness by pulling up, but to the detriment of net mechanical efficiency...

Several studies have gone into more detail on the upstroke however, and have concluded that the main difference is with regards to unweighting, rather than any tangible force.

(I see realman has turned into a gibberish talking nonce, again)

Thewaylander

Go Yee (again)

I love reading this, the amount of people who apply awful science to explain SPD's is funny.