national insurance
Comments
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NI while not going directly to the NHS or Old Age Pension still counts towards the amount you get. You need to have paid NI for 33 years in order to get the full pension. Same goes for Contribution based JSA (although not 33 years :roll: )
How do job seekers get big cars TV's etc ? They play the system. If you have been feckless and don't have any savings you get all sorts of extra payments. You can also get a laptop and internet paid if you have school age children, clothes for going to interviews, loans for furniture (which if you never get a job you never have to pay back)0 -
TheStone wrote:will3 wrote:TheStone wrote:
Where does it all go? Mostly health, education, benefits and security. A lot is probably well
spent, but plenty is wasted.
NHS - 3rd largest employer "in the world"*
* possibly, I read it on the internetz, sot it must be true
It wouldn't surprise me. Anyone who thinks the NHS budget won't be cut could be
disappointed. We simply can't afford it.
I worked, up until recently, in the NHS (working with adults with Learning Difficulties, Aspergers, Autism, that type of thing).
The Trust are now selling all their community homes to the private sector as they (the NHS) have been hit by a £30 million cut in funding for those types of areas. This was under Labour and not the Tories. The Tory cuts are going to be far bigger and swinging in the NHS.0 -
dg74 wrote:TheStone wrote:will3 wrote:TheStone wrote:
Where does it all go? Mostly health, education, benefits and security. A lot is probably well
spent, but plenty is wasted.
NHS - 3rd largest employer "in the world"*
* possibly, I read it on the internetz, sot it must be true
It wouldn't surprise me. Anyone who thinks the NHS budget won't be cut could be
disappointed. We simply can't afford it.
I worked, up until recently, in the NHS (working with adults with Learning Difficulties, Aspergers, Autism, that type of thing).
The Trust are now selling all their community homes to the private sector as they (the NHS) have been hit by a £30+ million cut in funding in the North East alone for those types of areas. This was under Labour and not the Tories. The Tory cuts are going to be far bigger and swinging in the NHS.0 -
alfablue wrote:
Hmmm, Switzerland is hardly a good benchmark against which to compare the NHS, when the Swiss have a per capita gdp of almost double that of the uk.
Which is not bad to say that Switzerland has almost zero natural resources and a minimum salary of about £26,000 year making exports of manufactured goods expensive.alfablue wrote:So what happens to people who are born with chronic diseases / with disabilities; what happens if you are long term unemployed ect, what level of healthcare do you get then?
What sort of emergency care do the unemployed or chronically sick get? If it is exactly the same as you get now then that is quite amazing.
My girlfriend, when she was a student got over 2/3rds of her health insurance premiums back off through the tax office. The situation is the same for long term unemployed who essentially get state funded health care. Just to clarify, I have to pay the first CHF 2000 of any treatment reated to illness in a year. This is my choice as I rareIy need to go to the doctor and I can reduce this liability down to CHF200 (maybe lower?) by paying an increase monthly premium. This would still be significantly less than paying the 9% (plus 1% top rate) NI or whatever it is these days. The law states that (unlike America) hospitals cannot refuse to treat uninsured people.
The length of time that you receive unemployment benefit at 80% is dependent on how long you have worked, but 2 years at this rate is not uncommon. The level of unemployment is quite low. (A quick search shows 3.7% estimated for 2010 a rise of almost 50% due to the global recession).
The difference is that here it is less socially acceptable to receive benefits. People want to work and do work which puts less strain on the system.alfablue wrote:On the other hand, this could just represent a rather narrow / "I'm all right jack" perspective, with no consideration of what hapens with the less fortunate. Of course, Switzerland may not have less fortunate people . . .
Of course Switzerland has 'less fortunate' people as you put it. The state looks after them and if you look at how many asylum seekers came to Switzerland following the Balkan war you will see that they have been supported and integrated in the Swiss system, even if a there is unfortunately still much racism against them and (generalising) they fill the lower paid jobs.
My rant is based on the fact that it makes me sad to see my home country falling under masses of debt and falling apart at the seams. I can't see myself ever returning to work in the UK and that makes me really sad. Having lived for 26 years in the UK and almost 7 years here, I can see that there is another way. It's not a case of 'I'm all right Jack' more of a case of 'we can all be all right Jack'.alfablue wrote:perhaps they volunteer for...no, prob not :oops:
sorry, you lost me there. care to elaborate?0 -
Schweiz, rumours of the UK's demise are premature! Don't write us off yet.
(Oh, and I was referring to the euthanasia clinics that are frequented by Brits)0 -
I see that Switzerland's health care spending is 11.9% of GDP and rising, which compares with 8.4% for the UK (which is lower than the European average). The difference is a privatised / insurance based system, with profits all round, and a public health system. Although you may not perceive this cost, we in the UK are paying a lot less for our health care. Generally speaking an insurance based health care system costs a lot more to administer with a significantly lower proportion of the budget actually going directly on care and treatment costs. I don't think it is in any way at all a desirable system to emulate.0
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Paying less, and getting a greatly reduced service? How many NHS patients would get the treatment I used in my first example? I was back on my bike and almost pain free in 2 weeks.alfablue wrote:Although you may not perceive this cost, we in the UK are paying a lot less for our health care.
This graph shows that public spend per capita is similar in the UK and in Switzerland, but NI (AHV/IV) payments are much lower (%age wise).
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-k ... ivate.html
The big difference is the private spending, I guess a large part of which is the insurance premiums. However my outgoings per month of my Gross salary are still less than half (%age wise) of what they were in the UK and my salary is more than double.
The system here does work...apart from dentistry! But then again I seem to remember stories on the BBC website about lack of NHS dentists as they'd all gone private!
Also the trains are clean and run on time, the roads are smooth and the skiing's not bad either
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Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Finally, NI is not for the funding of the NHS, it funds the benefits and pensions system - a small amount goes to the NHS, which is mostly funded by general taxation, so you can't count NI rates as an equivalent to the payments you make.0 -
alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*0 -
not really much to do with what NI is for and how the NHS is funded, but I guess tangents are the spice of life :roll:Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
I don't think I made the point that the rest of the world and / or Switzerland should emulate the UK on all those things you have introduced to the discussion. Rather, I think my point, should you care to read it, was that as the two countries are so different there is no way the UK could emulate the Swiss economy - its not a realistic aim! thats all I said :roll:0 -
alfablue wrote:
not really much to do with what NI is for and how the NHS is funded, but I guess tangents are the spice of life :roll:Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
I don't think I made the point that the rest of the world and / or Switzerland should emulate the UK on all those things you have introduced to the discussion. Rather, I think my point, should you care to read it, was that as the two countries are so different there is no way the UK could emulate the Swiss economy - its not a realistic aim! thats all I said :roll:
What can I say?
I saw "alfablue" and thought "meh, i'll just skim it".
:roll:0 -
Ah, abuse, nice touch
Maybe skim right on by . . .0 -
I think everyone's own personal experience and that of their friends will dictate whether they think the NHS is good value. I've seen the remarks made about 'you'll be grateful for it if you are knocked off your bike' and yes that much is true, the fact you don't have to worry about the cost of care in an emergency is great and worth figthing for but in other situations it can be very poor indeed. I gather treatment for life-threatening illnesses such as cancer, heart disease etc has also improved massively but anything that falls out of this category and you can be in for a testing time unless you can afford private treatment. From my own personal experiences you are putting your health at the mercy of a seriously over-stretched system that is forced to play the odds game over how you get treated. Thankfully at the moment I have private healthcare through my employer but if I moved jobs to one without I'd be taking out a policy off my own back as a priority as I've used both systems and I know which one I prefer.
Further down the road some real difficult decisions are going to have to be made because with an ageing poplulation requiring more care and all these expensive new drugs I see the NHS as it is being unsustainable unless politicians are brutally honest and tell us how much its going to cost. Everybody seems to have their heads in the sand over this.
As for pensions, well to me these just seem to be a pyramid scheme in disguise as the taxes we pay now are used for the elderly of today and my pension in 30yrs time will be reliant on the taxes from the employed of the future. If a private pension company ran its business like this it would be shut down very quickly indeed, they are all required to have an asset base to meet its liabilites.0 -
Pross wrote:Unfortunately everyone wants the best from public services but most also don't want to pay for it. I don't know how they expect one without the other. Even when I had private healthcare from work I didn't begrudge paying tax to fund the NHS but obviously I'd like to pay less each month
when my dad started out with cancer and was chronically ill, the private providers advisd him to go to the NHS as he would get the same treatment and better immediate aftercare. private is better for planned illnesses but you can't beat the NHS for acute and casualty treatment. He went private for his planned and ultimately palliative hospice care but even then he was seeing the same people as he'd have seen on the NHS. He only took the private route because it was company healthcare and he would have taken a 'free' bed from someone less lucky than him otherwise.
The galling thing for me with the NHS is not the underfunding, its consultants on a good NHS wage who spend half the week in private practice leaving the NHS to struggle and cope or employ a huge number more people than they need to simply to cover the private commitements, dunno what the answer is to encourage or compel people to stay tho. but private beak wetting does seem to be far more prevalent in this area of public service than anywhere else (apart from MP's directorships)
OP you're paying for someone elses pension now, its nowt to do with storing up your own stash for later and even if you do become an ex-pat (who doesn't think that at the start of their career/life) you'll still be eligible for a pension.
You'd also be very smart if you got yourself sorted with a private pension now. Nowadays you're not only a long time dead, but potentially a long time retired, the sooner you start saving for it the better. A few promotions and experience moves up the ladder and you won't notice the money you're paying out now for a retirement of not eating dog food.0 -
Shouldbeinbed - wisdom on all counts!0
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Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
Bugger off back to the Netherlands if it upsets you so.0 -
dmclite wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
Bugger off back to the Netherlands if it upsets you so.
I figured I'd earn a little money here and pay some taxes beforehand. Seems reasonable to me. If I left now, I'd never have to pay back the £20,000 student debt I have. Now, that's hardly good for the country is it?
S'why I worked in whitehall for a while > to try and sort out the above. I then realised that I was not able to be objective enough to work alongside a Tory gov't, which was one of the reasons I left < plenty more honest than a few others I know there...0 -
Wait until your paying 40%...then moan.0
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Rick Chasey wrote:dmclite wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
Bugger off back to the Netherlands if it upsets you so.
I figured I'd earn a little money here and pay some taxes beforehand. Seems reasonable to me. If I left now, I'd never have to pay back the £20,000 student debt I have. Now, that's hardly good for the country is it?
S'why I worked in whitehall for a while > to try and sort out the above. I then realised that I was not able to be objective enough to work alongside a Tory gov't, which was one of the reasons I left < plenty more honest than a few others I know there...
Fair one, Teagar. 0 -
You didn't have a problem working for a Labour Government that invaded a country on spurious grounds, but have a problem working for the Tories?
Good to have you back Teagear 0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:dmclite wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
Bugger off back to the Netherlands if it upsets you so.
I figured I'd earn a little money here and pay some taxes beforehand. Seems reasonable to me. If I left now, I'd never have to pay back the £20,000 student debt I have. Now, that's hardly good for the country is it?
S'why I worked in whitehall for a while > to try and sort out the above. I then realised that I was not able to be objective enough to work alongside a Tory gov't, which was one of the reasons I left < plenty more honest than a few others I know there...
I don't think you were ever going to solve all them from Whitehall, too many layers between you and folk you want to help.0 -
dmclite wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:dmclite wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:alfablue wrote:Well, the service you get in Switzerland is dependent upon both the private and public spend, whereas the UK health care system offers a complete package for everyone from the public purse, so I am not sure it is comparing like with like. Also, the total spend per capita is more than a third more in Switzerland, and is 3rd in the table of about 30 OECD countries - this would not be considered "a good thing" by most people.
I can find a range of NHS dentists taking patients in my area using an online search facility.
Clearly your standard of living in Switzerland is much better than you expect in the UK; Switzerland is a much wealthier country (per capita), whilst it might be desirable, the differences between the two countries are so great I don't think it is realistic to suggest that the Swiss economy should be a model that the UK could emulate.
Judging the disturbed people I've seen banging around council estates (sometimes litearally), the UK model shouldn't be one for emulation either.
One of the highest gaps between rich and poor in Europe?
Highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe?
One of the highest obesity rates in Europe?
Largest proportion of population imprisoned in Europe?
Considered by the UN to be the worst developed country in the world to bring up a child?
Yeah! *woo!*
Bugger off back to the Netherlands if it upsets you so.
I figured I'd earn a little money here and pay some taxes beforehand. Seems reasonable to me. If I left now, I'd never have to pay back the £20,000 student debt I have. Now, that's hardly good for the country is it?
S'why I worked in whitehall for a while > to try and sort out the above. I then realised that I was not able to be objective enough to work alongside a Tory gov't, which was one of the reasons I left < plenty more honest than a few others I know there...
Fair one, Teagar.
That's bullshite, there's no McDonalds in Whitehall."There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world, t'would be a pity to damage yours."0
