Flat vs drops

wgwarburton

Rolf F wrote:

...This threw me a bit until I tried a modern bike - in the old days*, you couldn't brake from the hoods - the type of hood with the cable coming straight out of the top of the hood is pivoted differently (lower down) and you simply can't get the leverage from the hood. Besides, the hoods weren't really used as a normal riding position then - we either rode from the drops or the tops ....

Sorry, Rolf, but this is boll^H^H^H^H... inaccurate: Modern levers may well be better designed for this but it's always been common practice- I can clearly recall Richard Ballantyne's "Richard's Bicycle Book" (published 1972!) stating "Almost all braking is done from above", in the days when "ten speed", meant a 2x5 setup instead of a 10-sprocket cassette!!!.

and if you had a cheapish bike, there would be a lever connection to the hood to allow you to brake from the top.

That didn't give as much leverage and these days, people seem to call them suicide levers though I'm not sure why.

They actually gave more leverage. That was the problem, because unless your brakes were near-perfectly adjusted they ran out of travel before you had fully applied them.

I think it is because they are big girls blouses but anyway, quality bikes never had them. We got by just moving to the drops if we needed to brake but we were much harder back then

* Old days = late 70s, early 80s

FrankM wrote:

I have both a road bike and an MTB but use an MTB for commuting because--
(a) I prefer to be more upright so as to get a better view of the road;

Drops don't mean you are any less upright than flat bars. Putting drop bars on your bike won't change the height of the head tube!

... and you can set your bars up by:

1) adjusting stem height (and length, of course, by changing it)
2) adjusting handlebar angle
3) adjusting brake lever positioning

...to get the positions you want- It's perfectly possible to raise the "on the hoods" position significantly, while retaining a deepish drop and an intermediate "tops", or you can raise the stem and tip the bars down to get a low "hoods" and deep drop with a more upright "tops".

I'm not entirely convinced by the "mountain bikes have better brakes" argument either, to be honest. It's perfectly possible to fit powerful brakes to a road bike (and I'd strongly recommend it, if you're going to tour the Alps with camping gear!!!). If your brakes are able to lock your wheels with a light touch on the levers, then they are too powerful. Better to have them set up so that you can use a range of pressures from light to strong to modulate the braking. You should need to pull hard to lock your wheels....it's not something you want to do by mistake!!

Cheers,
W.

waddlie

The militant "drop bars are best" crowd are out in force at the moment!

I have ridden extensively on both. I could eke out an extra mph or two on drops, especially if windy. But I always felt more confident of my bike control, road positioning and awareness on flats.

This is why I have decided to get hold of one of these for my commute:

[deleted by mod due to malware from bikereviews . com. Please DO NOT embed images from or link to this site]

It is, to all intents and purposes, a Giant Defy 2 with flat bars, bar-ends and a longer top tube. I might need an FCN adjudication - road bike or fast hybrid?

lost_in_thought

PBo wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

PBo wrote:

look, i can't believe this doesn't get asked by every hybrid v road bike newbie to this forum, but i have bitten the bullet, and will risk the oceans of scorn and ridicule which will pour forth.....

....but how the hell do you actually use the brakes/shifters, when not in the drops?????? (which even avid roadies admit is most of the time).

they work fine from the hoods, so fine.

but.....how?

You sit the webby bit between finger and thumb on the back of the hood, if you've got campag or 'better' gears (teehee) you've got a little lever where your thumb is, and another one behind the brake lever, there are your gears. It's really not a stretch. And you know where the brake lever is, right? Well it's simply a case of closing your hand around it. Job's a good'un.

I find I have problems when I do get into the drops (not that often) and pull the brakes with the same force I use from the hoods. My maxima is very very stoppy when you do that. Very stoppy indeed. :shock:

rolf_f

WGWarburton wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

...This threw me a bit until I tried a modern bike - in the old days*, you couldn't brake from the hoods - the type of hood with the cable coming straight out of the top of the hood is pivoted differently (lower down) and you simply can't get the leverage from the hood. Besides, the hoods weren't really used as a normal riding position then - we either rode from the drops or the tops ....

Sorry, Rolf, but this is boll^H^H^H^H... inaccurate: Modern levers may well be better designed for this but it's always been common practice- I can clearly recall Richard Ballantyne's "Richard's Bicycle Book" (published 1972!) stating "Almost all braking is done from above", in the days when "ten speed", meant a 2x5 setup instead of a 10-sprocket cassette!!!..

Sorry WG - not convinced. Fact (full stop, fact!) - the leverage you get on old style drops from above is a fraction of what you get on modern bikes. You'd need fingers of steel (or much longer fingers than mine and mine are long enough) to get decent stopping power off the hoods on both my touring bike and my old Raleigh Record Ace with Weinmann 605 brakes. You might be able to modulate (and maybe that is what your book is referring to - in racing, I can see that you wouldn't need much leverage) but expecting to stop quickly in town when someone pulls out infront of you would be optimistic to say the least.

Things are rather better on the 1990 105 setup of my friends Peugeot - this has the brake cables concealed and the pivot point gives similar performance to modern brakes.

If the weather picks up, I might go and do a brake test comparison down the hill past mine!

The hoods were much less comfortable too - further forward and lower down; you find your hands pushed into the upright of the hood (which, on my first bike, didn't even have covers - just the bare metal). I do use them on my older bikes but far less than on my new machine; simply not comfortable enough. Now I tend to use all positions fairly equally.

Disc brakes are better than calipers for stopping power - that's what they are for. They are good for sudden stops too and I never have any problems with them being too powerful. The reasons not to use them are simply weight and a tendency for the pads to rub and squeak a bit. Calipers are much less irritating in this respect. You can learn to modulate discs perfectly well, if not as finely as calipers, but they do probably suit wider tyres than a typical road bike (though I've not tried them on one). On my fat slicks, I've only had them lock up at very slow speeds.

stuaff

lost_in_thought wrote:

I find I have problems when I do get into the drops (not that often) and pull the brakes with the same force I use from the hoods. My maxima is very very stoppy when you do that. Very stoppy indeed. :shock:

Yup, that 'road brakes don't work right' stuff is a load of guff. You can stop on a sixpence (metaphorically) if need be. With practice you can modulate the pressure pretty well.
I've done (OK, did...!) plenty of urban riding on the Viner (including central London) without any problems, never felt any less in control. I find very little difference, if any, in terms of comfort between my Dahons and the Viner. The more efficient riding position on the Viner, even on the hoods, is still upright enough for comfort and excellent visibility, and the responsiveness of the bike is a big active safety advantage- less time crossing busy junctions etc.

UndercoverElephant

lost_in_thought wrote:

You sit the webby bit between finger and thumb

Just because I love the name, can we use the proper, medical term of, "Anatomical snuffbox".

Clever Pun

gaz545 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

see my tifosi in the link in my sig for example, it's very upright.

Your hoods look like they are in an uncomfortable position :shock:

that's not how she rides it, the tyres are inflated

FrankM

Waddlie wrote:

The militant "drop bars are best" crowd are out in force at the moment!

Completely agree.

MrChuck

Depends on your commuting I'd say. Sure drop bars have more positions, but for a relatively short, mostly urban ride it's not really an issue. If you then wanted to extend your riding to 'proper' road riding then yes, it might become an issue, but IMO the benefits of flat bars and V brakes far outweighs the disadvantages for short-ish urban rides.

Might not be possible for you but for me the ideal compromise is a flat-bar road bike/hybrid for commuting etc and a proper road bike for proper road riding.

And as far as the brakes on road bikes go, they're pretty good but in combination with 23mm tires I find they're just not as good (and I'm talking here about actually coming to a controlled stop in all conditions) as the V-brakes/32mm tires on my hybrid.[/i]

rolf_f

MrChuck wrote:

Depends on your commuting I'd say. Sure drop bars have more positions, but for a relatively short, mostly urban ride it's not really an issue. If you then wanted to extend your riding to 'proper' road riding then yes, it might become an issue, but IMO the benefits of flat bars and V brakes far outweighs the disadvantages for short-ish urban rides.

The reason it is ideally, IMO, best to use drops even on a commute is that as long as you can get comfortable with the narrower width, aside from the greater clearance in traffic, drops help you deal with headwinds better. I'd agree that the multiple grip options of drops are not needed on an average commute.

Brake type is a separate issue not entirely dependant on handlebar design.

El Capitano

I currently commute with drop bars. I like them as they're narrower for wizzing through stationary city centre traffic. I did used to commute with flat bars, without any issue and without any real difference in speed from the drops (except through traffic).

However, the best bars, IMO for commuting were these:



Scott AT4 Pro's. Technically an MTB bar, but for me, more suited to commuting. Only 20" wide with multiple hand positions, including a TT 'tuck'. Still got them in the shed and they might make an appearance on the Focus in the future.

jonginge

FrankM wrote:

Waddlie wrote:

The militant "drop bars are best" crowd are out in force at the moment!

Completely agree.

As are the drop-bar deniers

@Rolf my first road bike had the old style cable through the top of the hoods break levers. I could brake fine from the hoods. Sounds like those Weinmanns were a bit cack

rolf_f

JonGinge wrote:

@Rolf my first road bike had the old style cable through the top of the hoods break levers. I could brake fine from the hoods. Sounds like those Weinmanns were a bit cack

Possibly but 605s were a good quality brake for the time - pads are a bit bobbins though but relative perfomance should still be clear enough. The tourer has Weinmann cantilevers - again, fine from the drops but not much power on the hoods; I can certainly slow the bike but my digits are too close to the pivot point to get much real power. As I said, I'll do a compare and contrast on a nice, steep hill - should be good training!

MrChuck

Rolf F wrote:

Brake type is a separate issue not entirely dependant on handlebar design.

Well, yes and no. Drop bars effectively* means that the bike will have dual-pivot brakes rather than Vs, and skinnier tires to match.

*Obviously there are exceptions but I think most people in this thread are talking about road bikes rather than cross or touring bikes.

MrChuck

JonGinge wrote:

FrankM wrote:

Waddlie wrote:

The militant "drop bars are best" crowd are out in force at the moment!

Completely agree.

As are the drop-bar deniers

I think the only thing that's being 'denied' is that drops are the best option for everything, all the time, no question.

vorsprung

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

Unless your whole commute is uphill or in heavy traffic that only allows speeds of 10mph.

Sure, "a lot" of people prefer flat bars. But then again "a lot" of people believe that tread on their road tyres gives them more grip in the wet. "a lot" of people are wrong

MonkeyMonster

vorsprung wrote:

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

Heh heh, there are a few flat bar cyclists out there who would be more than willing to give you chance to keep your scalp if you truly believe that flat bars = slow.
I get over taken by roadies or fixie/ss who are fitter than me - I can deal with that and am doing so. Its not that they are down in the drops and thus more streamlined - they are fitter and stronger. If you want to make the post that more drop bar cyclists are fitter (and therefore faster) than flat bar ones - then go ahead, you more than likely correct if using the premise that more drop barrers will do extra curricular rides and thus be fitter than those just commuting. You could put ginge on a flat bar (he'd complain mind) but he'd still sonic boom you as he passed at mach 2.3
IMHO its not bike - it's the rider. The bike will give you an indication of the rider but its still down the the legs and engine room.

wgwarburton

JonGinge wrote:

FrankM wrote:

Waddlie wrote:

The militant "drop bars are best" crowd are out in force at the moment!

Completely agree.

As are the drop-bar deniers

@Rolf my first road bike had the old style cable through the top of the hoods break levers. I could brake fine from the hoods. Sounds like those Weinmanns were a bit cack

I have Weinmann levers pulling Cantis on my touring bike. They have traditional top-exit cables and work fine.
I have Shimano top-exit levers pulling Weinmann brakes on my Winter Hack. They work fine but it's got flipped+chopped bullhorns, so I can't comment on the braking performance from the hoods.

The "summer" bike is off the road at the moment, awaiting a new back wheel & rebuild but it also has Weinmann levers, pulling Weinmann brakes.... again, they work fine.

All this stuff is vintage '70s/'80s kit. I'm sure the current stuff is better, more comfortable, more powerful, lighter etc but it all works well enough and on the drop-bar bikes I do the vast majority of my riding and braking from the hoods, as I have done for decades.

I'm not trying to be aggressively pro-drops, rather to encourage people who may not have not used them much to consider why they have been the choice of experienced road cyclists for nigh on a hundred years...


Rolf- I don't think we disagree in principle, maybe just in the detail of what's "acceptable" performance and how it can be achieved. You state that you still use the hoods of your older bikes, even though they are less comfortable than modern ones, and that you arn't comfortable with the performance of the older brakes when used that way. Fair enough- I've set up mine so that they are comfortable enough and effective enough for me but that might not suit you. All I'm really taking issue with is your assertion that this usage is recent- it's been common for years- and clarifying the operation of "suicide levers".

Cheers,
W.

Aidy

vorsprung wrote:

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

I don't really see why flat bars are going to be slower than drops for the most part.
Given a longer top tube, and not massively wide bars, the aero-position should be similar.

tarquin_foxglove

MatHammond wrote:

Oops, meant number two - I guess it could be one of those "I've been riding for 6 hours and can't get comfortable, maybe I'll try this..." options.

Funnily enough I spend most of my solo riding time there or thereabouts.

Initially my stem was too long but when I changed it & the bar came back 30mm bringing the hoods within easy reach, I still found #2 to be my 'natural' hand position.

I put it down to the rolling hills around Durham lending themselves to being honked up and to me, #2 feels more secure doing that than being on the hoods.

In a group obviously I need to be a bit nearer my brakes.

MrChuck

MonkeyMonster wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

Heh heh, there are a few flat bar cyclists out there who would be more than willing to give you chance to keep your scalp if you truly believe that flat bars = slow.
I get over taken by roadies or fixie/ss who are fitter than me - I can deal with that and am doing so. Its not that they are down in the drops and thus more streamlined - they are fitter and stronger. If you want to make the post that more drop bar cyclists are fitter (and therefore faster) than flat bar ones - then go ahead, you more than likely correct if using the premise that more drop barrers will do extra curricular rides and thus be fitter than those just commuting. You could put ginge on a flat bar (he'd complain mind) but he'd still sonic boom you as he passed at mach 2.3
IMHO its not bike - it's the rider. The bike will give you an indication of the rider but its still down the the legs and engine room.

+1

I reckon if I swapped my hybrid for, say, a Spesh Langster I'd do my longest regular commuting-type trip maybe a minute or 2 quicker over the 30 mins ish it would usually take. But I'd be worse off when I detour down the canal, or in heavy traffic in the wet, or when there's snow on the ground, so you can keep that minute or two, thanks. I'll save worrying about that sort of time for when I'm out on my road bike.

I'll qualify that by saying that a cross bike would also do me very well, but I stand by my position that the advantage of drop bars to urban riding (or at least most of my urban riding) is about 1/3rd of naff all.

rolf_f

WGWarburton wrote:

Rolf- I don't think we disagree in principle, maybe just in the detail of what's "acceptable" performance and how it can be achieved. You state that you still use the hoods of your older bikes, even though they are less comfortable than modern ones, and that you arn't comfortable with the performance of the older brakes when used that way. Fair enough- I've set up mine so that they are comfortable enough and effective enough for me but that might not suit you. All I'm really taking issue with is your assertion that this usage is recent- it's been common for years- and clarifying the operation of "suicide levers".

Cheers,
W.

I'm open to being educated! I'll shut up until I have investigated semi-scientifically!

lost_in_thought

Clever Pun wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

see my tifosi in the link in my sig for example, it's very upright.

Your hoods look like they are in an uncomfortable position :shock:

that's not how she rides it, the tyres are inflated

Shurrup.

ex-pat scot

El Capitano wrote:

I currently commute with drop bars. I like them as they're narrower for wizzing through stationary city centre traffic. I did used to commute with flat bars, without any issue and without any real difference in speed from the drops (except through traffic).

However, the best bars, IMO for commuting were these:



Scott AT4 Pro's. Technically an MTB bar, but for me, more suited to commuting. Only 20" wide with multiple hand positions, including a TT 'tuck'. Still got them in the shed and they might make an appearance on the Focus in the future.

I've been searching for these for years!

I had some on my Pace in the early '90s and unfortunately sold them to a friend. I've been trying to find a pair for my MTB tandem ever since.

If you ever want to sell them...

vorsprung

Aidy wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

I don't really see why flat bars are going to be slower than drops for the most part.
Given a longer top tube, and not massively wide bars, the aero-position should be similar.

Aidy,

Bear in mind that one of the "advantages" of flat bars is that they are a wider.

Let's ignore that though and assume that a 44cm flat bar and a 44cm drop is being compared

I quite agree that the difference in X sectional area is not going to be great, again given the right sort of longer tube tube. But I think you must be able to see that the drop bar position on the drops must be lower and therefore more aero. The drops used with the hands on the hoods is going to be similar to a flat bar hand position.

At higher speeds any kind of small aero advantage becomes significant

So flat bar bikes are always slower

MrChuck

vorsprung wrote:

Aidy wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

I don't really see why flat bars are going to be slower than drops for the most part.
Given a longer top tube, and not massively wide bars, the aero-position should be similar.

Aidy,

Bear in mind that one of the "advantages" of flat bars is that they are a wider.

Let's ignore that though and assume that a 44cm flat bar and a 44cm drop is being compared

I quite agree that the difference in X sectional area is not going to be great, again given the right sort of longer tube tube. But I think you must be able to see that the drop bar position on the drops must be lower and therefore more aero. The drops used with the hands on the hoods is going to be similar to a flat bar hand position.

At higher speeds any kind of small aero advantage becomes significant

So flat bar bikes are always slower

If ridden in the drops, which most people, for the most part, don't do.

supersonic

vorsprung wrote:

Aidy wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

What I find it difficult to understand is when people say "a fast flat barred commuter bike"

Flat bars == slow

I don't really see why flat bars are going to be slower than drops for the most part.
Given a longer top tube, and not massively wide bars, the aero-position should be similar.

Aidy,

Bear in mind that one of the "advantages" of flat bars is that they are a wider.

Let's ignore that though and assume that a 44cm flat bar and a 44cm drop is being compared

I quite agree that the difference in X sectional area is not going to be great, again given the right sort of longer tube tube. But I think you must be able to see that the drop bar position on the drops must be lower and therefore more aero. The drops used with the hands on the hoods is going to be similar to a flat bar hand position.

At higher speeds any kind of small aero advantage becomes significant

So flat bar bikes are always slower

A little slower maybe. But certainly not slow. An aero bar set up will be more noticable were the savings for a fast rider can be of the order of 100 watts, and that is over drops. You want efficiency, then aero bars and a good helmet are the way forward. A low flat bar compared to drops and the difference is much less - and even less than that for the average rider.

You want comfort, then drops or flats or whatever you prefer.

they have been the choice of experienced road cyclists for nigh on a hundred years.

And what choice do most use for gearing nowadays?

lost_in_thought

Yeah, I don't really think much can be made of the 'increased aerodynamic efficiency' argument. While there is truth in it, I don't think it'll make that much difference for the average commuter.

It's basically comfort, and I really don't think there's a good argument for flats being more comfortable.

supersonic

Is for me lol as I prefer wider bars and the shifting/braking as above. Comfort is very subjective, as is ergonomics.

MrChuck

lost_in_thought wrote:

Yeah, I don't really think much can be made of the 'increased aerodynamic efficiency' argument. While there is truth in it, I don't think it'll make that much difference for the average commuter.

It's basically comfort, and I really don't think there's a good argument for flats being more comfortable.

Again, for the average commuter there's probably not much in it. For 3 hours on a road bike drops can offer more comfort, for half an hour across town with traffic lights etc. I don't see it's an issue, especially with bar ends.