Why are there so many different rear suspension designs ?

BG2000
BG2000 Posts: 517
edited April 2010 in MTB general
This might seem like a pointless question, but there seems to be an infinite number of variations in rear suspension design, so I'm just curious to know what other people think.

Most manufacturers have settled on either a Fox of RockShox rear shock, but the design of the linkage, swingarm and the position of the shock is amazingly varied.

Do you think rear suspension will ever settle down on one general design ?
«1

Comments

  • D-Cyph3r
    D-Cyph3r Posts: 847
    Not when everyone patents their own designs.
    My Hectik Custom Build Log
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    BG2000 wrote:
    Do you think rear suspension will ever settle down on one general design ?
    No. Bicycle suss design is about compromise and depending on personal preference and riding style/conditions we are always going to see variation in design.
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • RealMan
    RealMan Posts: 2,166
    Cough cough marketing cough.
  • peter413
    peter413 Posts: 5,120
    edited April 2010
    Some are more efficiant peddalers, some work better over rougher ground, some are lighter, some are sronger......

    Basically, they are designed differently for a reason :wink:
    Transition Patrol
    Cube LTD 29er

    Glentress Trailfairies
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    they are different due to a mainly marketing.

    there is the influence of patents to a bit.
    peter413 wrote:
    Soma are more efficiant peddalers, some work better over rougher ground, some are lighter, some are sronger......

    Basically, they are designed differently for a reason :wink:

    then why do Spesh use the same design for their bikes?
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • peter413
    peter413 Posts: 5,120
    nicklouse wrote:
    then why do Spesh use the same design for their bikes?

    There are slight tweaks on different models but the horst linkage is a very good compromise between plushness and pedaling efficianty.
    Transition Patrol
    Cube LTD 29er

    Glentress Trailfairies
  • RealMan
    RealMan Posts: 2,166
    RealMan wrote:
    Cough cough marketing cough.

    Cough.
  • The Northern Monkey
    The Northern Monkey Posts: 19,174
    RealMan
    35105_l.jpg
    Santa Cruz Butcher
  • RealMan
    RealMan Posts: 2,166
    Ah much better.
  • GHill
    GHill Posts: 2,402
    I would argue that there are only two popular main designs: single pivot and four bar. You can move the pivot points and add linkages to try and adjust rates, but the majority of designs are typically along those lines.

    There are a couple of exceptions, but you don't see many of them.
  • cavegiant
    cavegiant Posts: 1,546
    Some of the exceptions are exceptional though.

    The i-drive based design that has been improved on dramatically for teocali is stunning.
    The most efficient pedalling design and most plush!

    Trade off is complexity and weight.

    I think the weight is well spent though.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Most designs trade off anti squat and pedal kickback.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • bike-a-swan
    bike-a-swan Posts: 1,235
    GHill wrote:
    I would argue that there are only two popular main designs: single pivot and four bar. You can move the pivot points and add linkages to try and adjust rates, but the majority of designs are typically along those lines.

    There are a couple of exceptions, but you don't see many of them.

    aren't the vpp/maestro/dwlink-esque things another distinct category?
    Rock Lobster 853, Trek 1200 and a very old, tired and loved Apollo Javelin.
  • GHill
    GHill Posts: 2,402
    bike-a-swan wrote:
    aren't the vpp/maestro/dwlink-esque things another distinct category?

    The Maestro is a lot like a four-bar, isn't it? Just that the rear pivot is moved to right behind the bottom bracket rather than at the rear axle.

    DW-link certainly looks similar to Maestro in terms of pivot placement, but with an added concentric rear axle pivot. I'd really like to ride one of those.

    Is VPP not a special case of linkage driven single pivot?

    Felt have something different with the equilink (Stephenson six bar), but I'm not too familiar with those.

    Do let me know if I've got this wrong, not claiming to be a suspension expert - much the opposite really.
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    There's only 4 sorts of suspension. You've got your 4 bars, your single pivots, your single pivots with linkages, and then all the other stuff that makes your head hurt when you look at it.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • GHill
    GHill Posts: 2,402
    Northwind wrote:
    There's only 4 sorts of suspension. You've got your 4 bars, your single pivots, your single pivots with linkages, and then all the other stuff that makes your head hurt when you look at it.

    :lol:

    Yep, that sounds about right.
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    VPP, DW link, Maestro are all technically four bars. They are designed to move the virtual pivot point as the sus compresses to try and take advantage of different characteristics at different places.

    One thing many people don't realise - if a single pivot has the pivot in the same location of that of the virtual pivot of a four bar, then they will react EXACTLY the same under pedaling and acceleration, all else being equal {ie shocks leverage}.

    Braking can be different.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    GHill wrote:
    Northwind wrote:
    There's only 4 sorts of suspension. You've got your 4 bars, your single pivots, your single pivots with linkages, and then all the other stuff that makes your head hurt when you look at it.

    :lol:

    Yep, that sounds about right.

    well it can be simplified further.all suspension systems make the rear wheel pivot about a point. this point may be fixed in its location or it may move.

    you can then look at the shock positioning. this can have a number of characteristics.
    rising or falling rate or even linear.

    and the shock spring itself can also have a variable rate.

    Oh it is fun.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • bike-a-swan
    bike-a-swan Posts: 1,235
    what about the 'dales with no pivot at all between bb and rear axle? are they freak variations on single pivot, or a funny class of their own?
    Rock Lobster 853, Trek 1200 and a very old, tired and loved Apollo Javelin.
  • ExeterSimon
    ExeterSimon Posts: 830
    bike-a-swan wrote:
    what about the 'dales with no pivot at all between bb and rear axle? are they freak variations on single pivot, or a funny class of their own?

    'Dales are a funny class of their own full stop.
    Whyte 905 (2009)
    Trek 1.5 (2009)
    Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Comp (2007)
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    still a single pivot.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • toasty
    toasty Posts: 2,598
    Mavericks? Sort of like an old URT with a floating BB? Would that still come under single pivot of some sort?

    maverickML75Rear600.jpg
    Stumpy FSR 29er
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    Damn you Toasty.

    but yes still a single floating pivot point.

    no different to a Mac-Pherson strut as found on the average car.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • toasty
    toasty Posts: 2,598
    hehe
    Stumpy FSR 29er
  • joshtp
    joshtp Posts: 3,966
    different designes accomplish different things, different peaople see the differnt benefits of different designes as being more or less important. no design is perfect, all are compromises, but everyone can find a compromise they like in the end. IMHO the I-drive is the most accomplished design, but others think that a simple single pivot like an orange 5 is the "right" one.

    marketing also plays a pretty massive part...
    I like bikes and stuff
  • RealMan
    RealMan Posts: 2,166
    dscn0604.jpg


    Discuss.
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Softail. Seen loads of them - uses flex in the stays as a pivot.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • RealMan
    RealMan Posts: 2,166
    Of course, but as there's no real pivot, I'm guessing the pivot is one of those virtual pivot jobbies. Is the pivot at the BB? In the chain stays? Or does it move?
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    In the chain stays, a few inches from the BB (usuallly), moves slightly upawards as the sus compresses.
    GT ZASKAR CARBON TEAM

    VOODOO CANZO

    Come and see me at https://www.facebook.com/biketyke/
  • RealMan
    RealMan Posts: 2,166
    My mates got one, very similar to that, except its got slot drop outs, and I don't think the strengthening tube from toptube to seattube.

    What happens to steel when you cause it to flex repeatedly over the years? Does it get stronger? Will it just eventually crack or stay bent?

Categories