Too many commuters?

lastant

CdrJake wrote:

Whatever happened to the cycling proficiency test? I remember vividly taking my test at the age of 10 with the local village policeman along with my cousin and 4 other local children.

Saw a group of kids getting trained down Hammersmith Grove the other day with two or three adults in high-viz sending them on their way - down the road and a right turn into a side road. Was good to see.

Bit different to my training on the suburban street outside my school in Peterborough, mind! There's adults I know that wouldn't dare cycle in and around the London streets!

CdrJake

lastant wrote:

CdrJake wrote:

Whatever happened to the cycling proficiency test? I remember vividly taking my test at the age of 10 with the local village policeman along with my cousin and 4 other local children.

Saw a group of kids getting trained down Hammersmith Grove the other day with two or three adults in high-viz sending them on their way - down the road and a right turn into a side road. Was good to see.

Bit different to my training on the suburban street outside my school in Peterborough, mind! There's adults I know that wouldn't dare cycle in and around the London streets!

In my yonger days Maplehurst was a fairly quite village to cycle around so we were taken into Guildford for a few hours to cycle. An arse clenching moment for any 10 year old.

However in this day and age with Maplehurst being a commuter town for London, cycling can be a bit hazardous.

I did however cut my real cycling teeth in Oxford while at University, I soon got the jist of being able to 'unclip, kick and clip-in' very quickly as yet another car would try and run you off the road. However do not do this to one of your Don's Jags, that month cost me a lot of money. :shock:

il_principe

fnegroni wrote:

Well, last night I had one of the 'racers' taking part to the 10 mile TT in Twyford left hooking me at a junction, shouting "give me some space will ya?".

To which I replied in a constructive manner: he was so slow, he could hardly pull away from me on my hybrid...

So, what do we do with road races taking part on the open road?

I used to have a powerful sportscar: when I wanted to race, I took it on race tracks: yes it's expensive, but I wouldn't endanger anyone else. Why is it deemed acceptable for cyclists to race on the open road?

I am not talking about sportive events: there you can slow down at a junction and give way. This was a 10 mile TT: on the public road at 6.30 PM without marshals? Stupid in my books.

I am against it: you want to race, do it on a closed circuit. You are on the public road, don't put anyone in danger. Knob!

Sadly there are pitifully few closed cycle circuits in the UK. Although cyclists have just as much right to use the road as motorists, so aside from the guy left hooking you, I don't really see what the issue is here. The more bikes (being considerately ridden) on the road, the better.

wgwarburton

Hi,
There's clearly a serious problem with large numbers of inconsiderate and incompetent cyclists on the roads. Just look at the figures!

How many people were Killed or Seriously Injured by bicycles last year?

.. oh, is that all?

Well.. that's not the point! Think of the cost of treating all those injuries!

What was the cost to the NHS of the rise in the number of cyclists?

...oh, it costs less? 'cos they are fitter... I see....

Umm, what was the point again?

Cheers,
W.

il_principe

I think we are all agreed that more cyclists is a good thing, but a little more consideration would be nice. Just this week I've seen a plethora of poor cylcing, RLJ-ing etc, new or not it doesn't take much to work out that RLJ is daft. Saw 2 (brand new) Charge riding hipster-wannabes scatter peds on a green man this morning, stupid f@ckers. Last week I was waiting at the lights near the Imperial War museum and this dud(e) on a Spesh hybrid pulls in front of me, then attempts a track stand, ends up turning 360 and ends up right in front of me again, put a foot down, lights go green. WTF is the point.

So yeah, more cyclists, less tw@ts please. I'd rather dodge cyclists than cars/vans/lorries...

fnegroni

Il Principe wrote:

I don't really see what the issue is here. The more bikes (being considerately ridden) on the road, the better.

I agree with the bit about more 'considerate' cyclists.

But certainly, if you are in a race, every second counts, correct? You are less likely to slow down for traffic, correct?

This guy left hooked me and luckily only another rider was coming (whom I slowed down for).

If they were to hold motor races on the public motorway, would you oppose the idea?

I certainly hope so.

CdrJake

WGWarburton wrote:

Hi,
There's clearly a serious problem with large numbers of inconsiderate and incompetent cyclists on the roads. Just look at the figures!

How many people were Killed or Seriously Injured by bicycles last year?

.. oh, is that all?

Well.. that's not the point! Think of the cost of treating all those injuries!

What was the cost to the NHS of the rise in the number of cyclists?

...oh, it costs less? 'cos they are fitter... I see....

Umm, what was the point again?

Cheers,
W.

Figures from NGale: Cost of a simple call out for an ambulance to an emergency call WITHOUT major treatment = £300

I can only imagine the true cost if that's just a starting price. :shock:

Pross

fnegroni wrote:

Well, last night I had one of the 'racers' taking part to the 10 mile TT in Twyford left hooking me at a junction, shouting "give me some space will ya?".

To which I replied in a constructive manner: he was so slow, he could hardly pull away from me on my hybrid...

So, what do we do with road races taking part on the open road?

I used to have a powerful sportscar: when I wanted to race, I took it on race tracks: yes it's expensive, but I wouldn't endanger anyone else. Why is it deemed acceptable for cyclists to race on the open road?

I am not talking about sportive events: there you can slow down at a junction and give way. This was a 10 mile TT: on the public road at 6.30 PM without marshals? Stupid in my books.

I am against it: you want to race, do it on a closed circuit. You are on the public road, don't put anyone in danger. Knob!

Why shouldn't cyclists race on the roads when it is perfectly legal? Just because you encountered one idiot doesn't mean all racing cyclists are dangerous. I regularly see commuters acting dangerously on the road but I don't think they should be banned from cycling on the roads. It's bad enough having the anti-cycling lobby trying to stop racing on open roads without fellow cyclists joining in. The comparison with racing a car on the road is ridiculous as you would have to break laws on speed limits etc. to race a car on the road, it isn't necessary to break any laws to race a bike on the road (and anyone doing so would be dq'd). Any open race will have marshalls at junctions and all races have to have their routes and times approved by the police in advance.

Pross

Racing cars does actually take place on open roads too BTW, have you never seen a road rally?

wgwarburton

Pross wrote:

Racing cars does actually take place on open roads too BTW, have you never seen a road rally?

Surely "closed, public", rather than "open"?

Cheers,
W.

DonDaddyD

I'm not buying the cyclists shouldn't race on roads because cars don't.

Risk assessment and damage potential are vastly different.

I.e.

Huge difference between a car going 100mph losing control crashing and/or possibly exploding than a cyclist crashing at 30 - 40mph.

Furthermore they do race cars on public (closed roads). They do race bikes on public rollin (closed or completley closed roads). It's just that other countries are more accomodating.

jonginge

Pross wrote:

fnegroni wrote:

Well, last night I had one of the 'racers' taking part to the 10 mile TT in Twyford left hooking me at a junction, shouting "give me some space will ya?".

To which I replied in a constructive manner: he was so slow, he could hardly pull away from me on my hybrid...

So, what do we do with road races taking part on the open road?

I used to have a powerful sportscar: when I wanted to race, I took it on race tracks: yes it's expensive, but I wouldn't endanger anyone else. Why is it deemed acceptable for cyclists to race on the open road?

I am not talking about sportive events: there you can slow down at a junction and give way. This was a 10 mile TT: on the public road at 6.30 PM without marshals? Stupid in my books.

I am against it: you want to race, do it on a closed circuit. You are on the public road, don't put anyone in danger. Knob!

Why shouldn't cyclists race on the roads when it is perfectly legal? Just because you encountered one idiot doesn't mean all racing cyclists are dangerous. I regularly see commuters acting dangerously on the road but I don't think they should be banned from cycling on the roads. It's bad enough having the anti-cycling lobby trying to stop racing on open roads without fellow cyclists joining in. The comparison with racing a car on the road is ridiculous as you would have to break laws on speed limits etc. to race a car on the road, it isn't necessary to break any laws to race a bike on the road (and anyone doing so would be dq'd). Any open race will have marshalls at junctions and all races have to have their routes and times approved by the police in advance.

+1
Any TT will have approval of the local authorities or it wouldn't go ahead. There definitely would have been marshals.

@fnegroni, you encountered a bit of an idiot. There are quite a few about, racing or not. Would you credit it?

Pross

WGWarburton wrote:

Pross wrote:

Racing cars does actually take place on open roads too BTW, have you never seen a road rally?

Surely "closed, public", rather than "open"?

Cheers,
W.

No, road rallies take place on open public roads. They are officially trials of navigation rather than races with penalties if you arrive at checkpoints too early in order to prevent driving at speed and they are usually held in the middle of the night but anyone watching them (as I used to regularly) will know that they are an excuse to drive fast and throw in a few slides on hairpins.

SteveR_100Milers

fnegroni wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I don't really see what the issue is here. The more bikes (being considerately ridden) on the road, the better.

I agree with the bit about more 'considerate' cyclists.

But certainly, if you are in a race, every second counts, correct? You are less likely to slow down for traffic, correct?

This guy left hooked me and luckily only another rider was coming (whom I slowed down for).

If they were to hold motor races on the public motorway, would you oppose the idea?

I certainly hope so.

But they do, only the roads get closed when that happens, admittedly only on rare occasions. However, I really don't think the comparison is relevant - the difference is that a car at 100+ mph on a "public" road can cause a lot more damage than a cyclist at 30 mph. Plus in this country there are few dedicated cycling lanes, none of which are suitable for racing on. Like most things in life, there has to be a bit of give and take on all sides, as a race organiser and competitor, touring / holiday cyclist and lifelong car enthusaist I really cannot see why all three can't exist together. It's about attitude, not science.

gaz545

Soooooooooo many ameatures on the road today, whilst track standing at the traffic lights in a queue of other cyclists i get some tosser coming up right close next to me and nearly knocking me over from his bulging body.

The ones who filter to the front of other cyclists are always the slowest. Stay at the back slow COACH!!

oh well double scalps i spose.

fnegroni

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm not buying the cyclists shouldn't race on roads because cars don't.

Risk assessment and damage potential are vastly different.

So I get a peloton of 100 racing cyclists while I take my 3yo son for a ride, and that's 'safe'.

Me thinks not!

Again, as most people on here, you are thinking 'small' numbers.

You really need to think bigger numbers guys.

BTW, that junction did not have a marshal.

When I go for a ride this Sunday, I'll just stick a number on my back and 'pretend' to be in a race. Let's see if that somehow stops any accidents happening as if by magic all other vehicles will stop moving as I go past.

It is the arrogance of believing that being in a road race gives you more right to be on the road.

I saw these guys: in their 'team' outfits, expensive bikes, expensive helmets, to go at 20mph and nearly cause an accident is a disgrace. They also are then resting at the side of the road, after 10 miles? I have my son to attend to when i get home, and I made a bigger effort than them. They then drive to and from races...

You all shout about cars not giving you enogh space, completely forgetting that we should be the ones to give the good example.

Letting road races on the open road is stupid.

mtb-idle

nope, whilst there are still cars on the road there can never be too many commuters.

Pross

I think the name you used to describe the racing cyclist in your OP would have been better used for yourself. All organised races (with the exception of club TT's) require marshalls. You have also now taken a leap to bunch racing on the road where marshalls are required at junctions, permission required from the police and local council, risk assessments have to be undertaken by the organiser, lead cars and following cars are in use and in most cases there are also motorcycle marshalls. Also, you won't see many (if any) 100+ pelotons in this country on a fully open road as fields are limited to much less than this with the exception of major events such as nationals or the Tour of Britain where rolling closures are operated and the National Escort Group (with full police powers to stop traffic) and / or the police ride as marshalls.

All racing cyclists are aware that they are ultimately responsible for ensuring the way is clear at a junction before proceeding although in reality traffic will be stopped by a marshall. You appear to be basing your comments on a single time triallist in a closed club TT and really ought to do some research before jumping on the ban racing on the road band wagon. I assume you have never raced yourself? Closed road circuits offer a tedious, generally flat option compared to the real thing. Stick to your commuting and lay off racing.

Dicky Dolan

last night a expreinced a "noody" take out a paramedic on a motorbike because he wasn't paying attention and just pulled out without looking (he was also wearing ear phones meaining that he didnt hear or pay any attention to the siren), the paramedic had to take avoiding action and ended up clipping a bus and causing him to come off and narowly avoiding being squashed by the same bus.

Yes good to have more cyclists, bad to have rubbish ones who endanger peoples lives

cjcp

Dicky Dolan wrote:

Yes good to have more cyclists, bad to have rubbish ones who endanger peoples lives

Amen to that. End of.

Headhuunter

Well AFAIC, the more cyclists the better, raises awareness amongst drivers and makes it safer for all of us. Admittedly some of the noobs get in the way, but not really enough to bother me usually. However I travel between 8 and 8.20am ish and after 6.30/7pm or later, so I probably miss the bulk of rush hour and general mass of noobs on 2 wheels...

tailwindhome

Pross wrote:

All racing cyclists are aware that they are ultimately responsible for ensuring the way is clear at a junction before proceeding although in reality traffic will be stopped by a marshall. .

I have no knowledge in this area and may be wrong, but while lurking on the website of the local club I came across their 'racing guidelines' which pointed out that the marshalls weren't authorised to 'stop traffic' at junctions, they are there to warn/ stop the cyclist.

FrankM

Dicky Dolan wrote:

Yes good to have more cyclists, bad to have rubbish ones who endanger peoples lives

I agree, but saw plenty of rubbish cyclists endangering peoples lives commuting over the winter; don't think this is something limited to people who cycle "mostly in hi viz on shiney new bikes" and who start commuting again at this time of year.

Pross

TailWindHome wrote:

Pross wrote:

All racing cyclists are aware that they are ultimately responsible for ensuring the way is clear at a junction before proceeding although in reality traffic will be stopped by a marshall. .

I have no knowledge in this area and may be wrong, but while lurking on the website of the local club I came across their 'racing guidelines' which pointed out that the marshalls weren't authorised to 'stop traffic' at junctions, they are there to warn/ stop the cyclist.

That is true unless the marshalls are accredited and have received delegated powers from the police (as with the NEG in my area) hence why as a racing cyclist you have to be aware that it is your responsibility although in all my time racing I have never witnessed a situation where motorists haven't stopped when made aware that a race is approaching (in bunch racing that is - in a TT I have regularly given way to traffic).

Despite the picture painted by fnegroni road racing is run on the roads under strict regulations (Cycle Racing in the Highway Regulations) which also give the legal rights for this racing. One thing in his/ her rant really does show a lack of understanding on this subject i.e.

I am not talking about sportive events

Sportives are not classed as racing and therefore do not come under the above regulations, also you do not need a racing licence or insurance (as far as I'm aware) to take part. In many cases the fields are far bigger than for races as a result of this but many of the better competitors are still riding at close on race pace and in groups so I really don't understand why the poster feels that these events would be exempt from their ban as I can't see them being any safer for other road users than a fully marshalled and escorted race and arguably they would be more dangerous.

Jeremy Parker

CdrJake wrote:

Whatever happened to the cycling proficiency test? I remember vividly taking my test at the age of 10 with the local village policeman along with my cousin and 4 other local children.

We had all the usual, stopping and starting, figure of eight, junctions and right turns and basic bike maintence ending with a 15 minute test before being presented with certificates and a sew on badge (which I still have!)

It was all basic common sense cycling, something which a lot seem to have forgotten.

Cycling Proficiency has long gone, as indeed has relying on "basic common sense" - it turns out that there are things about cycling which are counterintuitive to novices.

What there is now is "Bikeability", which has three levels. Level 1 is just riding-around-the playground stuff, level 2 is what, to my mind, any 8 year old ought to know. Level 3, laughably called "advanced" is what any 11 year old ought to know.

As you can imagine, John Franklin's "Cyclecraft" is the bible

Jeremy Parker

mapryan

My commute to the City of London has got much busier this week. I don't know whether it was people had decided that after Easter they were going to get their bikes out or just because the weather has got a bit nicer, but the number of cycles (and motorcycles) has mushroomed.

I agree with the general comments about it being good to have more cyclists on the road. However, this morning I saw a large gentleman on a very newish looking bike take a very prominent and slow position around the Elephant and Castle. Cars and bikes were going round him in all directions and he was creating complete mayhem. Luckily for him, he was completely oblivious to it, as he had his headphones in.

I also saw a fellow cyclist this morning riding along in Ugg Boots. How hot must her feet have been? How on earth were her feet staying on the pedals?

CdrJake

Jeremy Parker wrote:

CdrJake wrote:

Whatever happened to the cycling proficiency test? I remember vividly taking my test at the age of 10 with the local village policeman along with my cousin and 4 other local children.

We had all the usual, stopping and starting, figure of eight, junctions and right turns and basic bike maintence ending with a 15 minute test before being presented with certificates and a sew on badge (which I still have!)

It was all basic common sense cycling, something which a lot seem to have forgotten.

Cycling Proficiency has long gone, as indeed has relying on "basic common sense" - it turns out that there are things about cycling which are counterintuitive to novices.

What there is now is "Bikeability", which has three levels. Level 1 is just riding-around-the playground stuff, level 2 is what, to my mind, any 8 year old ought to know. Level 3, laughably called "advanced" is what any 11 year old ought to know.

As you can imagine, John Franklin's "Cyclecraft" is the bible

Jeremy Parker

So cycling proficiency under some new PC in essence.

Cafewanda

Jeremy Parker wrote:

[What there is now is "Bikeability", which has three levels. Level 1 is just riding-around-the playground stuff, level 2 is what, to my mind, any 8 year old ought to know. Level 3, laughably called "advanced" is what any 11 year old ought to know.

As you can imagine, John Franklin's "Cyclecraft" is the bible

Jeremy Parker

Actually JP, for those of us who got on a bike in their 'much later' years, Bikeability is a revelation and I reckon I'm at Level 2 and a bit since I started reading Cyclecraft :oops:

I'm getting there though.

Agent57

When was the last time any of us used the correct "I am slowing down or stopping" signal while out on our bikes? I'm just interested, not trying to make a point. I was taught it more than 30 years ago when I did my cycling proficiency, but I don't think I have ever used it on the roads.

I do signal turns, however (and unlike many, mine are normally large signals, rather than a vague arm down by my hips).

Jeremy Parker

mapryan wrote:

My commute to the City of London has got much busier this week. I don't know whether it was people had decided that after Easter they were going to get their bikes out or just because the weather has got a bit nicer, but the number of cycles (and motorcycles) has mushroomed.

It does seem to take a while for those sealed into tin boxes to realise it's spring, so maybe we've seen nothing yet.

I agree with the general comments about it being good to have more cyclists on the road. However, this morning I saw a large gentleman on a very newish looking bike take a very prominent and slow position around the Elephant and Castle

I always assume a prominent position on roundabouts, and always stay well away from the kerb, too. If you want to be seen by motorists, put yourself where they look. Don't be a gutterbunny. Say to yourself, "A critical Mass is one bike. That's all it takes."

Follow the advice in "Cyclecraft"

Because I'm 68, I'm slow too

Cars and bikes were going round him in all directions and he was creating complete mayhem. Luckily for him, he was completely oblivious to it, as he had his headphones in.

I live right at the northern edge of London. That's not that far away from the oldest roundabout in Britain, in Letchworth Garden City. Cars there really did use to go in all directions. It took decades to convince people to only go clockwise. There is a rhythm to how traffic works. Learn to read, and work with it.

I also saw a fellow cyclist this morning riding along in Ugg Boots. How hot must her feet have been? How on earth were her feet staying on the pedals?

Pedals come in diferent shapes and sizes. Off road bikes have a tradition of the rider wearing big boots, so you can get pedals to match.

Jeremy Parker