The sea of hi-viz. Everyone is wearing so you don't have to

DonDaddyD

There I was all dressed in black, black 3/4 lengths, shoes and jacket. It dawned on me today, there is no point in my wearing hi-viz. All around me there was anything between, upto and probably over 7 - 10 other cyclists all wearing some god awful illuminous yellow jackect, arm bands and rucksack covers.

So assuming my commute is in the centre of London, which it is. I commute alongside a large number of other cyclist, I do. My commute is on one of the more cycled on routes, it is. I'm rarely on my own when I cycle, I'm not. There really isn't any point in me having to wear hi-viz, which lets face it, despite the large number of people wearing it. Still enormously uncool!

il_principe

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

OldSkoolKona

Il Principe wrote:

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

+1

More important that you cycle in a visible way. In London village today, amazed by the number of cyclists here, brilliant thing to see. Back in for the next two days so planning on cycling in if I can find somewhere to lock my bike safely. See you all on the Embankment :twisted:

tailwindhome

The Hi Viz debate is sooo Autumn Winter....

I say Spring Summer 2010 will be all about the Ipod

OldSkoolKona

TailWindHome wrote:

The Hi Viz debate is sooo Autumn Winter....

I say Spring Summer 2010 will be all about the Ipod

I reckon a debate on why you changed your name? Or did I miss that thread??

jamesco

DonDaddyD wrote:

I commute alongside a large number of other cyclist, I do.

You must ride rather slowly if you rely on an escort of high-vis riders, you do...

Seriously, this is one of the silliest tropes on the forum, that other people wearing high-vis makes it ineffective or unnecessary. If it makes you feel uncool then you're free not to wear it, no worries.

always_tyred

DonDaddyD wrote:

There I was all dressed in black, black 3/4 lengths, shoes and jacket. It dawned on me today, there is no point in my wearing hi-viz. All around me there was anything between, upto and probably over 7 - 10 other cyclists all wearing some god awful illuminous yellow jackect, arm bands and rucksack covers.

So assuming my commute is in the centre of London, which it is. I commute alongside a large number of other cyclist, I do. My commute is on one of the more cycled on routes, it is. I'm rarely on my own when I cycle, I'm not. There really isn't any point in me having to wear hi-viz, which lets face it, despite the large number of people wearing it. Still enormously uncool!

You may be in just about the only part of the UK where this is the case.

Even in Oxford and Cambridge the cyclists, although there are many of them, opt for wicker baskets rather than high vis.

Fireblade96

*yawn*

DonDaddyD

I'm not trying to make a point or anything, just an observation.

Lancslad

All the cyclists i pass in a morning when i go by car think a hi-vi is a substitue for lights, well thats if they even bother with the viz, actually the ones wearing them are only doing so because they wear them at work.

DonDaddyD

To clarify

In winter I wear a red coat and at one point used six lights. Two on the front handlebars. Two on my helmet (front and back). A rear light of my seat post and one on my bag, the strap and a large portion of the bag is also reflective.. The bag itself covers my back so I don't see the point of a hi-viz jacket.

Lancslad wrote:

All the cyclists i pass in a morning when i go by car think a hi-vi is a substitue for lights, well thats if they even bother with the viz, actually the ones wearing them are only doing so because they wear them at work.

....

Huge assumption that a person wearing an Altura night vision jacket uses it at wok....

Agent57

jamesco wrote:

Seriously, this is one of the silliest tropes on the forum, that other people wearing high-vis makes it ineffective

Maybe, but I made a similar comment in a blog post a couple of weeks ago. My reasoning being that hi-viz gets noticed partly as it stands out, but partly because it's unusual. So as more people wear it routinely, and more drivers see it day in, day out, it becomes normal; thus less likely to be noticed. Sure, people will still see it, but it won't register as strongly as a cyclist.

That's my hypothesis, anyway.

DonDaddyD

Agent57 wrote:

jamesco wrote:

Seriously, this is one of the silliest tropes on the forum, that other people wearing high-vis makes it ineffective

Maybe, but I made a similar comment in a blog post a couple of weeks ago. My reasoning being that hi-viz gets noticed partly as it stands out, but partly because it's unusual. So as more people wear it routinely, and more drivers see it day in, day out, it becomes normal; thus less likely to be noticed. Sure, people will still see it, but it won't register as strongly as a cyclist.

That's my hypothesis, anyway.

I'd go with that. It's basically how the human mind works. It notices things it doesn't normally see, hear more that everyday occurances.

snailracer

Ride naked. Even in the middle of London, everyone else is dressed :P

Greg T

TailWindHome wrote:

The Hi Viz debate is sooo Autumn Winter....

I say Spring Summer 2010 will be all about the Ipod

I disagree - I think cyclists should pay road tax.

And pass tests and be registered and stuff.

Lancslad

[/quote]
Huge assumption that a person wearing an Altura night vision jacket uses it at wok....[/quote]


Not likely, I can spot a cheap hi-viz because I have to wear one at work.....in my office job................

DonDaddyD

Lancslad wrote:

Huge assumption that a person wearing an Altura night vision jacket uses it at wok....

Not likely, I can spot a cheap hi-viz because I have to wear one at work.....in my office job................

Ooo I'm curious now, what job?

jamesco

I couldn't find any research on the effect of high-vis clothing on accident rates, but there is such a paper on motorcyclists in the British Medical Journal.

From the conclusion:

Low conspicuity may increase the risk of motorcycle crash related injury. Increasing the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, white or light coloured helmets, and daytime headlights are simple, cheap interventions that could considerably reduce motorcycle crash related injury and death.

From the paper:

Drivers wearing reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk of crash related injury than those who were not wearing such materials (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94). When stratified by ambient illumination (table 3), the protective association seemed to increase with falling light levels, although numbers were small at twilight, reducing the precision of the effect estimate.

Here's the relevant table.

davmaggs

Bit of an old one DD!!

My observations on HVis whilst driving various vehicles large and small is that whilst it isn't a magic shield it does often catch the eye when you are quickly scanning your mirrors. On the bike (anecdotal I know) I see cars move over when they suddenly notice me filtering.

The motorcycle riders often have their headlight on or some kind of jacket because they know that your narrow width (esp when filtering) means that you stand a good chance of remaining unseen in a speedy mirror check. Again, no guarantees but being stealthly gives you no chance.

So, whilst hi-vis isn't 100% and the degree of success can be debated I would say that being a ninja has no merit whatsoever.

rolf_f

I regard the heavily road oil stained hi viz jacket a badge of honour - it's as public a statement that you MTFU and cycle through the winter as you can make

To be fair though, in Leeds there are so few cyclists that there isn't really much FCN style snob value related to what you ride or wear - I wouldn't feel any more accepted by a non existent Leeds cycling elite if I commuted in something nice by Castelli rather than a 10 quid Aldi fluorescent.

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm not trying to make a point or anything, just an observation.

So this is a pointless thread then? :twisted:

DonDaddyD

I'll let you have that one.

Kieran_Burns

OldSkoolKona wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

+1

More important that you cycle in a visible way. In London village today, amazed by the number of cyclists here, brilliant thing to see. Back in for the next two days so planning on cycling in if I can find somewhere to lock my bike safely. See you all on the Embankment :twisted:

Ahhh.... you mean cycle while giving the Team America secret signal!

always_tyred

Il Principe wrote:

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

Did you ever see that road safety ad with the guys playing basketball?

Did you spot the chap wearing a gorilla costume, or not?

Same idea. I can respect the not wearing of high vis - I don't wear it all the time myself, and I feel that drivers really ought to be able to see what is right in front of them on a bright day - but lets face it, it DOES make you more visibile and if lots of people are wearing it, you are even worse off than if you are on your own not wearing it. Pretending that somehow you stand out more by vbeing the only one not wearing it is wishful thinking and factually nonsense. Are you more visible if you are the only car at night without headlights? Of course not.

Remember the gorilla.

Paul E

Kieran_Burns wrote:

OldSkoolKona wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

+1

More important that you cycle in a visible way. In London village today, amazed by the number of cyclists here, brilliant thing to see. Back in for the next two days so planning on cycling in if I can find somewhere to lock my bike safely. See you all on the Embankment :twisted:

Ahhh.... you mean cycle while giving the Team America secret signal!

LOL I am going to start shouting durkha durkha as a warning, forget bells and horns

rjsterry

Never have been cool, and have no intention of starting now, so no problem there. Often wear my Night Vision jacket in a non-cycling capacity too. Take the point about urban camouflage (very easy to walk onto a building site if you are wearing one), but out in Zone 5/6, us cyclists are a bit thinner on the ground. Not wearing it does not make you more visible, just means that all the hi-vizzers blend into one a bit, and you disappear altogether. Unless you do a lot of cycling in the snow, black is never going to make you stand out.

DonDaddyD

If I lived further out that I already do, like Kingston... I'd probably wear hi-viz.

Greg T

DonDaddyD wrote:

If I lived further out that I already do, like Kingston... I'd probably wear hi-viz.

If you lived in Kingston you'd wear a hoodie and baseball cap - Awful place.

rjsterry

Yes, there's a definite drop off in the amount of street lighting once I turn off at Tooting Broadway. Bits of Mitcham Common were until recently completely unlit. I also am lucky to see more than 1 or 2 other cyclists south of Tooting. Now, orange could be the way forward: still hi viz in its own right, but different from all those flippin' Skyride tabards still knocking around *grumblegrumbleMurdochgrumblegrumble*.

il_principe

Always Tyred wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

Did you ever see that road safety ad with the guys playing basketball?

Did you spot the chap wearing a gorilla costume, or not?

Same idea. I can respect the not wearing of high vis - I don't wear it all the time myself, and I feel that drivers really ought to be able to see what is right in front of them on a bright day - but lets face it, it DOES make you more visibile and if lots of people are wearing it, you are even worse off than if you are on your own not wearing it. Pretending that somehow you stand out more by vbeing the only one not wearing it is wishful thinking and factually nonsense. Are you more visible if you are the only car at night without headlights? Of course not.

Remember the gorilla.

Hence why I have yellow reflective strips on my commuting bag - combined with lights this is more than enough at night, and by day I reckon I'm pretty visible - the size of my courier bag would basically render any lumo jacket pointless. On a bright day I'm inclined to think that bright red is better than yellow - especially when riding in the countryside where red (or garish team kit as is some people's wont) stands out over yellow and yellow can often blend into roadside foliage....

always_tyred

Il Principe wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

Hi Viz has basically become a form of urban camouflage.

Did you ever see that road safety ad with the guys playing basketball?

Did you spot the chap wearing a gorilla costume, or not?

Same idea. I can respect the not wearing of high vis - I don't wear it all the time myself, and I feel that drivers really ought to be able to see what is right in front of them on a bright day - but lets face it, it DOES make you more visibile and if lots of people are wearing it, you are even worse off than if you are on your own not wearing it. Pretending that somehow you stand out more by vbeing the only one not wearing it is wishful thinking and factually nonsense. Are you more visible if you are the only car at night without headlights? Of course not.

Remember the gorilla.

Hence why I have yellow reflective strips on my commuting bag - combined with lights this is more than enough at night, and by day I reckon I'm pretty visible - the size of my courier bag would basically render any lumo jacket pointless. On a bright day I'm inclined to think that bright red is better than yellow - especially when riding in the countryside where red (or garish team kit as is some people's wont) stands out over yellow and yellow can often blend into roadside foliage....

Fair enough.

Red is not a good colour, btw, hence why red and (I think) blue cars are more likely to be involved in accidents. Most accidents happen on country roads. QED.