Bertie changes schedule
Comments
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micron wrote:For me it was the outright lie that Astana need a TdF invite - calling that misinformation is charitable.
MG the thing is, the mainstream media don't bother to ask anyone else but Armstrong about their performances in any major race
Cant comment on the US but here in the UK i have seen interviews in the mainstream media from Wiggins,Cavendish,Millar and Contador about thier TDF performances . But apart from them you may be right Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
afx237vi wrote:[
Who says GW isn't allowed an opinion? "Lance sure rode a great race today" is an opinion. "Astana are sucking up to the ASO because they need an invite to the TDF" is not an opinion, it is an incorrect statement.
I dunno about you MG, but I look for a reason behind what anyone says, be they photographers, cyclists or politicians. It's called critical thinking. It's quite an important tool in forming your own opinions.
You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Either way I was suprised to see Watston spreading rumours via twitter. No one else has run with these suggestions. If he's right, let's hope he's also informed the UCI, if he's wrong then he's in danger of joining the Armstrong "shill" club, inhabited by the likes of Phil Ligget, Versus TV and others, who seem to have swapped journalism for selective PR.0
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Moray Gub wrote:afx237vi wrote:[
Who says GW isn't allowed an opinion? "Lance sure rode a great race today" is an opinion. "Astana are sucking up to the ASO because they need an invite to the TDF" is not an opinion, it is an incorrect statement.
I dunno about you MG, but I look for a reason behind what anyone says, be they photographers, cyclists or politicians. It's called critical thinking. It's quite an important tool in forming your own opinions.
You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.
Mind reading again, Moray.
The issue has nowt to do with LA, neither is it an opinion, but a rumour that Astana are defaulting on rider payment again.
Folks are rightly sceptical of GW's statement, given:
a) There hasn't been so much as a whisper of this, elsewhere.
b) The UCI going to such lengths to ensure the riders pay was secured, before issuing a licence renewal.
So, what concerns folks is how GW came upon such info, were it to be true.
If it isn't true, why was GW motivated to de-stabalise a situation, that has been rectified?"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Moray Gub wrote:afx237vi wrote:[
Who says GW isn't allowed an opinion? "Lance sure rode a great race today" is an opinion. "Astana are sucking up to the ASO because they need an invite to the TDF" is not an opinion, it is an incorrect statement.
I dunno about you MG, but I look for a reason behind what anyone says, be they photographers, cyclists or politicians. It's called critical thinking. It's quite an important tool in forming your own opinions.
You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.
Tying Watson to Lance has to be the easiest kill in Pro cycling.
Mind you if he's going to wind up a load of post-Soviet mid-Asian oligarchs and a borderline despotic government with apparently libellous stuff on twitter, he must have some evidence I guess?___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Moray Gub wrote:You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.
What are you on about? I think it's fairly unacceptable for people to make a statement that is clearly incorrect (Astana needing an invite) and also peddle rumours without any substance (Contador needing appearance money and Astana not paying wages).0 -
afx237vi wrote:Moray Gub wrote:You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.
What are you on about? I think it's fairly unacceptable for people to make a statement that is clearly incorrect (Astana needing an invite) and also peddle rumours without any substance (Contador needing appearance money and Astana not paying wages).
+1
GW needs to pull his head out of someones arse.0 -
Maybe GW is being used as a mouthpiece for LA/Hog in these times where everything they say is being analysed by god, his dog and everybody else.
Who knows, if there were majro rumours about wages again, we'd have heard by now!0 -
afx237vi wrote:Moray Gub wrote:You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.
What are you on about? I think it's fairly unacceptable for people to make a statement that is clearly incorrect (Astana needing an invite) and also peddle rumours without any substance (Contador needing appearance money and Astana not paying wages).
Its not unnaceptable to make a statement if he thinks that to be the case as he clearly does in this occasion whether its true or not the man is well entitled to express it just as much as you are to discount it. Anyway how do you know much if what he says is without substance maybe their is a wage issue its not look there has not been problems before in this dept. I always find it amusing how when it comes to LA or anyone associated with him different standards seem to apply its ok for you to make incorrect statements or statements without substance but not GW. I couldnt care less whether GW is right or wrong or is he is proved to be right in the future as might happen in the case of wages but you lot seem to sniff out LA/RS/JB/any other associate friend (delete as applicable) and take the opposite view regardless of the content. Far far too much is being made out of a photographers reply to a question . Other than the astana invite who knows maybe there are rumors floating about after all he is closer to these things than any of us here.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:afx237vi wrote:Moray Gub wrote:You said this
"that somehow makes it acceptable for GW to do so?
That implies that you think it was unacceptable for him to express this when it was anything but unnaceptable for him to do so, always annoys me when people try to restrict others in their opinions. As for your critical thinking your starting point is how can i tie this guy/rider/reporter to LA and you work back from there anything but critcial thinking really. In fact its the exact opposite.
What are you on about? I think it's fairly unacceptable for people to make a statement that is clearly incorrect (Astana needing an invite) and also peddle rumours without any substance (Contador needing appearance money and Astana not paying wages).
Its not unnaceptable to make a statement if he thinks that to be the case as he clearly does in this occasion whether its true or not the man is well entitled to express it just as much as you are to discount it. Anyway how do you know much if what he says is without substance maybe their is a wage issue its not look there has not been problems before in this dept. I always find it amusing how when it comes to LA or anyone associated with him different standards seem to apply its ok for you to make incorrect statements or statements without substance but not GW. I couldnt care less whether GW is right or wrong or is he is proved to be right in the future as might happen in the case of wages but you lot seem to sniff out LA/RS/JB/any other associate friend (delete as applicable) and take the opposite view regardless of the content. Far far too much is being made out of a photographers reply to a question . Other than the astana invite who knows maybe there are rumors floating about after all he is closer to these things than any of us here.
It's GW creating the rumor, MG. The same guy writing articles on the RS site.
And as has been pointed out many times already, Astana don't need an invite, they are among the 16 PT Teams that are in. Maybe you wish they weren't but at least they deserve it, compared to some *cough* other teams...0 -
Arkibal wrote:[
It's GW creating the rumor, MG. The same guy writing articles on the RS site.
And as has been pointed out many times already, Astana don't need an invite, they are among the 16 PT Teams that are in. Maybe you wish they weren't but at least they deserve it, compared to some *cough* other teams...
Yea its not like Astana have had any wages issues before eh ! Anyway now you mention it the race would benefit as a spectacle from Astana not being there such is Berties superiority. This years race for yellow is gonna be one long borefest which is not Berties fault of course but thats a debate for another day.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:
Yea its not like Astana have had any wages issues before eh !
Indeed. And the UCI made a very big deal of this and sought a guarantee, held on deposit by them, for the entire season's wages before the start of the season. This is the reason their Pro Tour status was in doubt for so long, presumably because they had to get approval from the sponsors to, in effect, double the costs of the sponsorship for the season (although they should get the guarantee back at the end of the season).
We could debate why this was necessary, when the UCI seem happy to let all sorts of other irregularities go without comment at other Pro Tour teams, all day long. The point remains though, that Watson made these comments, which seem to be unfounded, and has a commercial relationship with Radioshack so is it any surprise that people are critical of him?0 -
Frankly, I'm amazed that this thread has been hijacked and generated 3 pages of irate ranting about a photographer's personal micro-blog. I'll never get those 10 mins back.
Clearly, LA will use any/every trick in the book to try and gain a competitive advantage over his rivals - even desperate ones. The fact he has to resort to such measures is a reflection of AC's current dominant status as the best (by some margin) stage racer in the peleton. LA cannot compete mano e mano, but there's no shame in that, as no-one else can at present.
As for this whole Tour invite thing, I can't see ASO not inviting the best rider on the planet to compete in the biggest race, even if his team aren't super strong. The invited Evans/Lotto year-on-year didn't they??!!
As for RadioShack, I don't think they've earned an invite. Their performances this year have been unremarkable - with the likes of LA, Horner, Kloden, Leipheimer lookiing very average indeed...0 -
pedro118118 wrote:Frankly, I'm amazed that this thread has been hijacked and generated 3 pages of irate ranting about a photographer's personal micro-blog. I'll never get those 10 mins back.
Clearly, LA will use any/every trick in the book to try and gain a competitive advantage over his rivals - even desperate ones. The fact he has to resort to such measures is a reflection of AC's current dominant status as the best (by some margin) stage racer in the peloton. LA cannot compete mano e mano, but there's no shame in that, as no-one else can at present.
..
LA ?Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
pedro118118 wrote:
As for RadioShack, I don't think they've earned an invite. Their performances this year have been unremarkable - with the likes of LA, Horner, Kloden, Leipheimer lookiing very average indeed...
They've more than earned their invite on the basis of their riders' performances in the Tour over the past decade. That's got to be worth more than a couple of months results in lesser races.Twitter: @RichN950 -
pedro118118 wrote:Frankly, I'm amazed that this thread has been hijacked and generated 3 pages of irate ranting about a photographer's personal micro-blog. I'll never get those 10 mins back.
Clearly, LA will use any/every trick in the book to try and gain a competitive advantage over his rivals - even desperate ones. The fact he has to resort to such measures is a reflection of AC's current dominant status as the best (by some margin) stage racer in the peloton. LA cannot compete mano e mano, but there's no shame in that, as no-one else can at present.
As for this whole Tour invite thing, I can't see ASO not inviting the best rider on the planet to compete in the biggest race, even if his team aren't super strong. The invited Evans/Lotto year-on-year didn't they??!!
As for RadioShack, I don't think they've earned an invite. Their performances this year have been unremarkable - with the likes of LA, Horner, Kloden, Leipheimer lookiing very average indeed...
Agree with all points here.Contador is the Greatest0 -
RichN95 wrote:pedro118118 wrote:
As for RadioShack, I don't think they've earned an invite. Their performances this year have been unremarkable - with the likes of LA, Horner, Kloden, Leipheimer lookiing very average indeed...
They more than earned their invite on the basis of their riders' performances in the Tour over the past decade. That's got to be worth more than a couple of months results in lesser races.
+1
You could argue half the pro tour teams have been unremarkable so far but its the LA angle at work again here.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:+1
You could argue half the pro tour teams have been unremarkable so far but its the LA angle at work again here.
Even without LA, they've got two former podium riders, and a further two who have been in the top ten and a winner on the Champs Elysees. And a DS who's won 9 of the last 11 Tours.
But they don't have the winner of the Tour of Qatar, so some people think they shouldn't be invited.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I guess it comes down to whether you think a team living on past glories should get an invite over teams that might ignite the race because they have something to prove? Personally I think there's a couple of the pre-selected teams that ASO would love not to have to invite. It would be nice to see the selection donw on results rather than reputation - the latter is surely subject to the law of diminishing returns
At the end of the day, the real challenger to Contador will come from the ranks of the young guns not the has beens0 -
RichN95 wrote:Moray Gub wrote:+1
You could argue half the pro tour teams have been unremarkable so far but its the LA angle at work again here.
Even without LA, they've got two former podium riders, and a further two who have been in the top ten and a winner on the Champs Elysees. And a DS who's won 9 of the last 11 Tours.
But they don't have the winner of the Tour of Qatar, so some people think they shouldn't be invited.
I suppose people should be judged on current performance not what they did 5 years ago. At this rate, Ullrich could be demanding to be on the Tour just because he was in the Top 10 for much part of the past decade.x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra0 -
micron wrote:I guess it comes down to whether you think a team living on past glories should get an invite over teams that might ignite the race because they have something to prove? Personally I think there's a couple of the pre-selected teams that ASO would love not to have to invite. It would be nice to see the selection donw on results rather than reputation - the latter is surely subject to the law of diminishing returns
At the end of the day, the real challenger to Contador will come from the ranks of the young guns not the has beens
But some of their glories are not that far in the past. LA and Kloden were 3rd and 6th last year. Leipheimer was 3rd in 2007 and 2nd in the Vuelta in 2008.
By your standards, the England football team should drop Steven Gerrard because he's not been on top form for a few months and replace him with Charlie Adam because he was the Championship Player of the Month for January.
If it was Sastre or Menchov leading RS, instead of Armstrong, then no one would think twice about their inclusion.Twitter: @RichN950 -
gabriel959 wrote:
I suppose people should be judged on current performance not what they did 5 years ago. At this rate, Ullrich could be demanding to be on the Tour just because he was in the Top 10 for much part of the past decade.
Ullrich wasn't on the podium at last year's Tour though, was he?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Not sure your last contention is true - BMC is another team that ought to struggle for a wild card as they've done nothing very much either, neither have Cervelo been as full on as they were in the early season last year.
And if performance doesn't matter, why bother with any other races? Let's just reduce the season to the Tour 'the only race that matters'.
As for England, why not try something new? Why not let outstanding young players come through? Otherwise your team or your sport surely faces stagnation?0 -
micron wrote:Not sure your last contention is true - BMC is another team that ought to struggle for a wild card as they've done nothing very much either, neither have Cervelo been as full on as they were in the early season last year.
You didn't watch Paris-Nice or T-A then? Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Watched them both and thought Liquigas were outstanding. Seriously didn't see anything from either of the teams above to merit selection at this stage in the season - after all we none of us can predict how well (or not) any of these teams will be performing come July 0
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micron wrote:Not sure your last contention is true - BMC is another team that ought to struggle for a wild card as they've done nothing very much either, neither have Cervelo been as full on as they were in the early season last year.
And if performance doesn't matter, why bother with any other races? Let's just reduce the season to the Tour 'the only race that matters'.
As for England, why not try something new? Why not let outstanding young players come through? Otherwise your team or your sport surely faces stagnation?
If it came down to the last Wild Card pick for Paris Roubaix between Lotto and Liquigas (ignoring the nationalities) who would you pick?
The one who had two riders in the top 5 last year and have a cobbles pedigree, but not a win to their name this season, or the team with loads of wins so far, an exciting young talent and absolutely no-one who's ever done well in the race.
(I've also just realised that Charlie Adam is Scottish - but the intention of the point remains)Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:micron wrote:I guess it comes down to whether you think a team living on past glories should get an invite over teams that might ignite the race because they have something to prove? Personally I think there's a couple of the pre-selected teams that ASO would love not to have to invite. It would be nice to see the selection donw on results rather than reputation - the latter is surely subject to the law of diminishing returns
At the end of the day, the real challenger to Contador will come from the ranks of the young guns not the has beens
But some of their glories are not that far in the past. LA and Kloden were 3rd and 6th last year. Leipheimer was 3rd in 2007 and 2nd in the Vuelta in 2008.
By your standards, the England football team should drop Steven Gerrard because he's not been on top form for a few months and replace him with Charlie Adam because he was the Championship Player of the Month for January.
If it was Sastre or Menchov leading RS, instead of Armstrong, then no one would think twice about their inclusion.
Fair point, except Charlie Adam isn't English :P0 -
Ahem..
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3499/ ... lness.aspx?
Anyone taking bets on LA pulling out of the Criterium International?Scottish and British...and a bit French0 -
Some interesting arguments put forward and I can understand both point sof view, to be honest. I'm sure the Shack will get an invite on the basis of past peformance and the stage race pedigree of their rider roster. That said, I've been completely underwhelmed by the performances of RadioShack to date - I think all their best riders are well past their sell-by-dates and are not going to get any better.
My ongoing gripe is with riders/teams, who distill their entire seasons down to 3 weeks in July. We all appreciate that the TdF is massive and overshadows every other bike race, but teams/riders really should have to earn their selection by performing at a high level throughout the season.
What about a tennis-style system where teams/riders are obliged to earn 'ranking' points in other events to secure qualification, like in the Grand Slams? This would focus the mind, instead of the big ProTour teams sitting back in the smug knowledge that qualification is a formality.
This would still provide for wild cards etc...0
