Building endurance

phreak

I've read a few times on here and other places that if you can do 80% of a rides distance in training then you'll manage the ride on the day.

Now I don't doubt that, but I'd like to do a bit more than just complete rides, and tend to suffer terribly after 60-70km or so, which happens to be my typical long ride at the weekends.

So do I need to up those longer rides or is it more an issue of pacing and re-fuelling en route?

freehub

Last year I did lots of long rides, like 120+ miles every saturday, but only at home, here in Manchester what I did was a hilly 68 miles every week, usually a tue/wed, and kept doing this, these 68 mile rides are what IMO enabled me to take on the longer rides and do them without much bother.

Refuelling could be a problem, I find it difficult to get it right to the point I'm going to take a bottle of honey on a ride and just sip at it but very regular to see if it helps.

What sort of rides do you normally do and what sort of distance is these longer rides?

Bronzie

phreak wrote:

do I need to up those longer rides?

It certainly won't do you any harm to do a longer ride every 3rd week or something like that if you'd struggle to do longer rides every weekend (due to other commitments for example). Bottom line is though, the more you ride, the more you can ride.

phreak

freehub wrote:

What sort of rides do you normally do and what sort of distance is these longer rides?

I'm doing turbo work in the week, which tends to consist of a couple of 1hr tempo sessions + a hill climbing session. I commute to work now and then, which is around 15 miles in total.

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

redddraggon

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

phreak

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

This is what I'm wondering, if it is more a case of not eating enough. I did the 80 mile Surrey Rumble yesterday and around the 50 mile mark was really tough, but then the final 15 or so I seemed to find a second wind. I didn't eat anything up to the first checkpoint, 28 miles in, so am wondering if that contributed.

fungus_the_muffin_man

phreak wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

This is what I'm wondering, if it is more a case of not eating enough. I did the 80 mile Surrey Rumble yesterday and around the 50 mile mark was really tough, but then the final 15 or so I seemed to find a second wind. I didn't eat anything up to the first checkpoint, 28 miles in, so am wondering if that contributed.

I did my longest ever ride yesterday - 75 miles. This year I had only ridden 2 x 50 milers 3 x 30 milers and my 12 mile round commute 2 -3 days a week where the weather was ok to ride. So my prep was far from perfect.

I have good friends who are well experienced roadies. after chatting to them I had 750 ml of my usual zipvit drink on the way to the sportive plus a porridge brekkie and hour before riding. At the ride I carried with me 2x 750ml drinks. I then had during the course of the ride 2 normal gels, 2 small dr lam style rice cakes. (2 pieces of malt loaf, 1 banana, 1 brioche at the cake stop) and 1 gel with caffeine to get me through the last 15 miles.

They told me to eat every 30 - 45 minutes into the ride and it certainately worked for me

amaferanga

Common mistake is not to start eating/drinking early enough.

But if the problem is just food/fluid intake its easily solved. So easily solved that it shouldn't really be a problem....

phreak

I've got the Cheshire Cat at the end of this month so shall give eating more a go and see how that works out.

inseine

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

I'm surprised that you find this a short ride yet you're dying after 60k. Either you're going REALLY hard or you're lacking a bit of fitness. I usually have one bottle of energy drink and another of water if it's warm and a small cereal bar or nothing on rides or 100k.

softlad

eat your solid food within the first 30-50% of your ride (while you still have the spare energy to digest it) and save your gels etc for the remainder...

I find that eating little and often is far better than stuffing down an energy bar/maltloaf/whatever every 45 mins...

TomF

inseine wrote:

I'm surprised that you find this a short ride yet you're dying after 60k. Either you're going REALLY hard or you're lacking a bit of fitness. I usually have one bottle of energy drink and another of water if it's warm and a small cereal bar or nothing on rides or 100k.

I can remember when most rides had me leaving the house with plenty to eat and eating it. Now, I am evidently fitter and stronger, as all I would consume for a 100km ride (unless it was very hilly and run off at a hard pace throughout) is the energy drink in one 750ml bottle.

On a recent 140 mile ride, I did stop for lunch (it was an audax) but otherwise consumed nothing but energy drink.

There is a transition somewhere from the body needing to have lots of readily available fuel and increasing the distance before needing to take on food. It takes a while, and plenty of riding to get there.

For the OP, those tempo rides on the turbo really ought to help, so long as you are doing them at tempo pace and not battering yourself for an hour. Equally, time spent in the saddle on longer rides will also do you good. By longer rides, I mean at least 100km.

There's some good advice up there on this thread about fuelling and having longer ride every few weeks. You need to graduially work up to where you want to be.

Pokerface

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

Or you can go home after 10 miles. Like you did yesterday. 8)


Were you OK?

fastercyclist

I did a 68 mile ride today with camelbak+1.75 litre capacity in bottles. One thing I do suggest for longer rides is buying cereal like Jordan's country crisp. You then fill up a food bag with about 150g of it, put it in your jersey and forget about it. That's your "bonk" food in case you misjudge the 'norma' food you take with you. Then when you get back you can just eat it post workout. A lot of carbs in it. It is worth carrying a hefty emergency set of food because sometimes your food needs can vary a lot. I can do 40 miles without eating anything - other days I feel like death by 30 and I've actually bonked at 40. Don't risk it always carry emergency

I found my pulse rate dropped a lot at the end of last year when I was doing long rides but has kept increasing since I've stopped doing it so it must have a big impact doing long rides - even though I was banging out fast 25 milers all the way through January-March.

I found today that I went out and rode that I could just do it. The longest ride I've ridden since January was 55 miles on Saturday and 2 x 40 mile rides in January. So it can be hard to say whether you need to built up to it - but I've done these distances before. I would just take it slowly or do something akin to a 360 degree route around your home town then you can cut it short and head home if you can't handle your planned distance - that's my usual tactic when pushing to new distance records.

redddraggon

Pokerface wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

Or you can go home after 10 miles. Like you did yesterday. 8)


Were you OK?

My rear mech was screwed, my bike was squeaking, never ate enough before I left home, and once you add in my current poor fitness I was frazzled once the gradients were 10+%. Once I stopped, drank and fuelled up, I was fine and got 60 miles in for the day.

When the gradient was over 10%, and my heart rate just wasn't going over 165bpm, I knew there was something up and it was time to call it a day.

Pokerface

redddraggon wrote:

My rear mech was screwed, my bike was squeaking, never ate enough before I left home, and once you add in my current poor fitness I was frazzled once the gradients were 10+%. Once I stopped, drank and fuelled up, I was fine and got 60 miles in for the day.

When the gradient was over 10%, and my heart rate just wasn't going over 165bpm, I knew there was something up and it was time to call it a day.

To be honest I would gladly have turned around myself at that point. I had no idea the route would be as hilly as it was. Ended up doing 80 miles that day - and was pretty tired, but glad I stuck it out in the end.


These are the days that pay off in the long run.

freehub

Where did Dan come to think I went too fast and tired you out James?

Gav888

At this time of year I find drinking more than 300ml an hour requires several pit stops for a piss on my typical 3 or 4 hour ride.....

sampras38

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

Perhaps a daft question, but if you think it's a fueling issue, why don't you take more fuel? You're basically saying you start to die around 37 miles.

If you ride on a full tank you should really have enough energy for 1.5 to 2 hours.

sampras38

phreak wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

This is what I'm wondering, if it is more a case of not eating enough. I did the 80 mile Surrey Rumble yesterday and around the 50 mile mark was really tough, but then the final 15 or so I seemed to find a second wind. I didn't eat anything up to the first checkpoint, 28 miles in, so am wondering if that contributed.

A lot can depend on how well you've been eating the day or 2 before as well. If you've kept your glycogen levels topped up, then had a good breakfast the morning of the ride you should be fine. hydration is also often overlooked and you should really prep yourself the day before too with lots of water. Not just on the day of the ride.

Some people eat loads but forget to hydrate adequatly enough and that could sometimes be the deciding factor and might explain why you're feeling it badly at the 50 mile mark.

That is as long as you are well used to doing these sorts of distances.

I've been doing a lot of study on this of late.

sampras38

softlad wrote:

eat your solid food within the first 30-50% of your ride (while you still have the spare energy to digest it) and save your gels etc for the remainder...

I find that eating little and often is far better than stuffing down an energy bar/maltloaf/whatever every 45 mins...

+1

I only tend to use gels if i'm absolutely desperate at the end of sportives, and even then very rarely. I'll sip drink every 15 mins or so and eat every 30 mins. 1 bar will be consumed every hour, or the equivalent amount of food.

redddraggon

sampras38 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

Perhaps a daft question, but if you think it's a fueling issue, why don't you take more fuel? You're basically saying you start to die around 37 miles.

If you ride on a full tank you should really have enough energy for 1.5 to 2 hours.

I do carry plenty of food. It's just I'm not confident eating in the middle of the group whacking along at ~20mph, over bendy poorly surfaced roads, especially when I'm not confident of the bike handling skills of the other riders.

On my own and in small groups I trust I generally do OK with fuelling and drinking. It's just when I'm in big groups with people I don't know.

sampras38

redddraggon wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

phreak wrote:

Then I'll try to do a longer ride at the weekend, which tends to be around 60-70km.

To be honest I'd consider 60-70Km a short ride, I'd normally aim for that sort of distance as the minimum when I (personally) go out. I also find I start to die after 60kms, but I think my issues is a fuelling and hydrating issue.

Perhaps a daft question, but if you think it's a fueling issue, why don't you take more fuel? You're basically saying you start to die around 37 miles.

If you ride on a full tank you should really have enough energy for 1.5 to 2 hours.

I do carry plenty of food. It's just I'm not confident eating in the middle of the group whacking along at ~20mph, over bendy poorly surfaced roads, especially when I'm not confident of the bike handling skills of the other riders.

On my own and in small groups I trust I generally do OK with fuelling and drinking. It's just when I'm in big groups with people I don't know.

Ahh, fair enough. Maybe you'd find it easier to get your carbs from a drink then. At least it'll be easier to digest.

Crapaud

+1 to what Sampras said re. fueling up the day or two before. It makes a huge difference (for me at least).

Despite my longest ride this year of 37 km, an extra helping of pasta the night before and 4 weetabix in the morning, I managed 100 km on 2 bananas and one bottle of High 5. I knew it was going to be tough towards the end so deliberately made it a spinning day, didn't push very hard, and finished feeling pretty good.

The 80% / 2/3rds rule: I've often found this misleading. It does work, but it doesn't mean that you'll finish feeling great, just that you'll finish. Eg. I can do 100 km, but I'm not capable, ATM, of 125/130 km. Now that I've reached my target of 100 I'll do this distance once a week until I'm finishing comfortably. Only then will I increase the distance. My target, ultimately, is to finish 200 km comfortably.

sampras38

Crapaud wrote:

+1 to what Sampras said re. fueling up the day or two before. It makes a huge difference (for me at least).

Despite my longest ride this year of 37 km, an extra helping of pasta the night before and 4 weetabix in the morning, I managed 100 km on 2 bananas and one bottle of High 5. I knew it was going to be tough towards the end so deliberately made it a spinning day, didn't push very hard, and finished feeling pretty good.

The 80% / 2/3rds rule: I've often found this misleading. It does work, but it doesn't mean that you'll finish feeling great, just that you'll finish. Eg. I can do 100 km, but I'm not capable, ATM, of 125/130 km. Now that I've reached my target of 100 I'll do this distance once a week until I'm finishing comfortably. Only then will I increase the distance. My target, ultimately, is to finish 200 km comfortably.

cheers..;-)

This is why when training for endurance events it's always a good idea to fuel yourself up a good 3 or 4 days before the event itself. You can't just wake up in the morning, eat a huge breakfast and expect to perform at your best.