Apparently, we might have gone too far!

MadammeMarie

According to some ex Top Gear presenter, at least. Tune in on Monday 22nd February to find out more about how evil we are!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00r0tbd

-spider-

MadammeMarie wrote:

According to some ex Top Gear presenter, at least. Tune in on Monday 22nd February to find out more about how evil we are!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00r0tbd

You'll need to let me know how this goes - it appears that the programme is for London only. Or perhaps it is only London cyclists that cause him problems

bails87

"1-in-5 cyclists riding roughshod over the law". And what proportion of drivers have ever broken the speed limit, and so also ridden (driven?) roughshod over the law? :roll:

richk

bails87 wrote:

"1-in-5 cyclists riding roughshod over the law". And what proportion of drivers have ever broken the speed limit, and so also ridden (driven?) roughshod over the law? :roll:

Beat me to it.

I read somewhere recently that something like 82% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit. (wish I kept the link)...

[Edit] Here's one report of it... http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/123217
[/Edit]

spen666

RichK wrote:

bails87 wrote:

"1-in-5 cyclists riding roughshod over the law". And what proportion of drivers have ever broken the speed limit, and so also ridden (driven?) roughshod over the law? :roll:

Beat me to it.

I read somewhere recently that something like 82% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit. (wish I kept the link)...

[Edit] Here's one report of it... http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/123217
[/Edit]

And of the remaining 18%, 17.9% of them tell lies

pedylan

Quote

"With one in five cyclists riding roughshod over the laws of the road"

Shoddy journalism - unsupported "fact", undefinable "roughshod" and sweeping generalisation. And who exactly is Adrian Simpson?

If Simpson ever was on Top Gear he'll have learnt to be inaccurate, sensational, controversial and loud. And therefore completely unhelpful to informed journalism or debate. Do let us know if that's wrong when it finally goes to air.

Jez mon

RichK wrote:

bails87 wrote:

"1-in-5 cyclists riding roughshod over the law". And what proportion of drivers have ever broken the speed limit, and so also ridden (driven?) roughshod over the law? :roll:

Beat me to it.

I read somewhere recently that something like 82% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit. (wish I kept the link)...

[Edit] Here's one report of it... http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/123217
[/Edit]

TBH, I'm one of those 82% I don't do it purposefully though, sometimes speed signs are put in the stupidist of places and some speed limits are actually nonsensical...

pedylan

Jez mon wrote:

RichK wrote:

bails87 wrote:

"1-in-5 cyclists riding roughshod over the law". And what proportion of drivers have ever broken the speed limit, and so also ridden (driven?) roughshod over the law? :roll:

Beat me to it.

I read somewhere recently that something like 82% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit. (wish I kept the link)...

[Edit] Here's one report of it... http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/123217
[/Edit]

TBH, I'm one of those 82% I don't do it purposefully though, sometimes speed signs are put in the stupidist of places and some speed limits are actually nonsensical...

Clarkson's second commandment. The first commandment being Thou shalt not get in my way.

But yes, I don't often do 70 on a mway. 30mph is though the absolute max in twns and villages.

lochindaal

Without trying to start a scrap I think as cyclists we sometimes bring this upon ourselves by jumping red lights, etc :twisted:

I'm just back from a ride and another bike in front went through every red light. It wasn't busy and he made no extra time on me when I stopped for each one. I'm sure he did loose a tiny amount of respect from drivers for other cyclists though.

I would imagine in London just by the large numbers of cyclists and drivers this is far worse.

I'm sure lots of people will now come and tell me how it is much safer to jump red lights, blah, blah, blah, but as long as these things happen non cyclists will get pis*ed off.

Le Commentateur

I recently rode back out of central London during evening commute for the first time for about 6 or 7 years. First thing I noticed was the obvious increase in 2 wheeled riders since when I used to do the daily ride in/out of town. The second was the sheer number of non-stopping RLJers. And the third was that many people didn't seem willing to sit behind someone else going at a reasonable speed but took any opportunity to overtake -- not unlike impatient car drivers in that respect.

Heckler1974

Seen by myself at Cambridge Circus in the West End a few years ago, a certain mop headed soon to be London Mayor whizzing through a red light on his bike and turning left.

Did I abuse him? No but my colleague shouted 'F*kin Tory w*nker!'

bails87

lochindaal wrote:

Without trying to start a scrap I think as cyclists we sometimes bring this upon ourselves by jumping red lights, etc

I get pissed off when joyriders steal cars and drunk drivers run people over, but I doubt many drivers (myself included) are saying "come on guys, we bring it on ourselves"

MadammeMarie

bails87 wrote:

lochindaal wrote:

Without trying to start a scrap I think as cyclists we sometimes bring this upon ourselves by jumping red lights, etc

I get pissed off when joyriders steal cars and drunk drivers run people over, but I doubt many drivers (myself included) are saying "come on guys, we bring it on ourselves"

+1

Jez mon

pedylan wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

RichK wrote:

bails87 wrote:

"1-in-5 cyclists riding roughshod over the law". And what proportion of drivers have ever broken the speed limit, and so also ridden (driven?) roughshod over the law? :roll:

Beat me to it.

I read somewhere recently that something like 82% of drivers admit to exceeding the speed limit. (wish I kept the link)...

[Edit] Here's one report of it... http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/123217
[/Edit]

TBH, I'm one of those 82% I don't do it purposefully though, sometimes speed signs are put in the stupidist of places and some speed limits are actually nonsensical...

Clarkson's second commandment. The first commandment being Thou shalt not get in my way.

But yes, I don't often do 70 on a mway. 30mph is though the absolute max in twns and villages.

TBH, I do drive to the speed limits, I'm just saying, in certain places the speed limits can be too low, and in keeping to them (like I generally do) you will just annoy the motorist. Of course, in the vast majority of cases, the speed limits are completely sensible.

I would say many of the other 18% are ether unaware that they are guilty of speeding from time to time, or were lying.

At least generally I pay attention and know when I'm starting to go too fast (and correct it!)

About the show goes, having had the misfortune to see Matthew Wright's show, the Wright Stuff, I can't imagine it being at all good, it'll be the TV equivalent of the daily mail article which got posted here a few days ago.

deptfordmarmoset

-spider- wrote:

MadammeMarie wrote:

According to some ex Top Gear presenter, at least. Tune in on Monday 22nd February to find out more about how evil we are!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00r0tbd

You'll need to let me know how this goes - it appears that the programme is for London only. Or perhaps it is only London cyclists that cause him problems

-spider-, it looks like all the Inside Out programmes are available on iPlayer from shortly after the broadcast. this is the current list: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search/?q=inside%20out

So you will be able to watch Inside Out from the outside in...

rake

i get mad when people cut roads up on a bike with no lights in front of my car. some pedestrians cross slowly round here to wind up car drivers. idiots do allsorts of stupid things i dont undertand why thats attributed to how theyre conveying themselves along.

desweller

rake wrote:

i get mad when people cut roads up on a bike with no lights in front of my car. some pedestrians cross slowly round here to wind up car drivers. idiots do allsorts of stupid things i dont undertand why thats attributed to how theyre conveying themselves along.

Drivers have to pass tests in order to qualify for a licence. Now, although most of us will have experienced some sort of incident as a result of poor driving, the fact is that, without these tests, the standard of driving in the UK would be far poorer.

As you say, some people are just idiots, but that can be mitigated somewhat with training. That training is compulsory for cars; it isn't for bikes. Therefore you will have a wider spread of capability of cyclists than you will for car drivers. So it can be argued that the former mode of conveyance has a generally lower standard of road skills than the latter.

NB If you've ever driven anywhere that does not require a test then you'll know how chaotic it can be. Driving on the wrong side of the road, random u-turns in the middle of a six-lane carriageway, driving the wrong way up a motorway slip road cos there isn't an off-ramp, just an on-ramp... It all gets a bit mental! So you should know that the standard of driving in the UK is actually quite good!

secretsqirrel

bails87 wrote:

lochindaal wrote:

Without trying to start a scrap I think as cyclists we sometimes bring this upon ourselves by jumping red lights, etc

I get pissed off when joyriders steal cars and drunk drivers run people over, but I doubt many drivers (myself included) are saying "come on guys, we bring it on ourselves"

+2 point well made.

To add............

On my daily commute I see drivers (accelerating) through RLs, all the time.
When cyclists do it, it is iritating, and they endanger themselves. A motorist endangers everyone.

downfader

DesWeller wrote:

rake wrote:

i get mad when people cut roads up on a bike with no lights in front of my car. some pedestrians cross slowly round here to wind up car drivers. idiots do allsorts of stupid things i dont undertand why thats attributed to how theyre conveying themselves along.

Drivers have to pass tests in order to qualify for a licence. Now, although most of us will have experienced some sort of incident as a result of poor driving, the fact is that, without these tests, the standard of driving in the UK would be far poorer.

As you say, some people are just idiots, but that can be mitigated somewhat with training. That training is compulsory for cars; it isn't for bikes. Therefore you will have a wider spread of capability of cyclists than you will for car drivers. So it can be argued that the former mode of conveyance has a generally lower standard of road skills than the latter.

NB If you've ever driven anywhere that does not require a test then you'll know how chaotic it can be. Driving on the wrong side of the road, random u-turns in the middle of a six-lane carriageway, driving the wrong way up a motorway slip road cos there isn't an off-ramp, just an on-ramp... It all gets a bit mental! So you should know that the standard of driving in the UK is actually quite good!

I look at cars in the same way I look at the heavy machinery I use at work. Machinery needs training in order to be safely used, cycles are quite uncomplicated. :?

deptfordmarmoset

SecretSqirrel wrote:

bails87 wrote:

lochindaal wrote:

Without trying to start a scrap I think as cyclists we sometimes bring this upon ourselves by jumping red lights, etc

I get pissed off when joyriders steal cars and drunk drivers run people over, but I doubt many drivers (myself included) are saying "come on guys, we bring it on ourselves"

+2 point well made.

To add............

On my daily commute I see drivers (accelerating) through RLs, all the time.
When cyclists do it, it is iritating, and they endanger themselves. A motorist endangers everyone.

Taking this one step further, it often scares the shît out of me when I'm slowing because of an amber light and the vehicle behind puts the foot down to negotiate what is known locally as ''London green.'' I always think that it's a nutter behind me who's either lost control of his mind or his feet and I end up thinking ''this is where it ends.''

rake

DesWeller wrote:

rake wrote:

i get mad when people cut roads up on a bike with no lights in front of my car. some pedestrians cross slowly round here to wind up car drivers. idiots do allsorts of stupid things i dont undertand why thats attributed to how theyre conveying themselves along.

Drivers have to pass tests in order to qualify for a licence. Now, although most of us will have experienced some sort of incident as a result of poor driving, the fact is that, without these tests, the standard of driving in the UK would be far poorer.

As you say, some people are just idiots, but that can be mitigated somewhat with training. That training is compulsory for cars; it isn't for bikes. Therefore you will have a wider spread of capability of cyclists than you will for car drivers. So it can be argued that the former mode of conveyance has a generally lower standard of road skills than the latter.

NB If you've ever driven anywhere that does not require a test then you'll know how chaotic it can be. Driving on the wrong side of the road, random u-turns in the middle of a six-lane carriageway, driving the wrong way up a motorway slip road cos there isn't an off-ramp, just an on-ramp... It all gets a bit mental! So you should know that the standard of driving in the UK is actually quite good!

id be willing to do a test and did a proficiency test when i was at school. car drivers rip the rule buck up when they pass the test. i dont think testing would solve the attitude.i think its because they feel they can get away with it. the more mileage i do the more im concerned with being run over on a b road.

zanes

rake wrote:

id be willing to do a test and did a proficiency test when i was at school. car drivers rip the rule buck up when they pass the test. i dont think testing would solve the attitude.i think its because they feel they can get away with it. the more mileage i do the more im concerned with being run over on a b road.

Of course, it's totally wrong to make sweeping statements about cyclists, but perfectly fine to make them about drivers..... :roll:

rake

car or bike or walking it doesnt matter. do you still grip the wheel with both hands and shuffle it through?

desweller

downfader wrote:

I look at cars in the same way I look at the heavy machinery I use at work. Machinery needs training in order to be safely used, cycles are quite uncomplicated. :?

That's one of the daftest things I've read on this forum. Cars are vastly less complicated than bikes to operate. We are just accustomed to using bikes, but think about it - why have two ways of changing gear? Where's the rear view mirror? Why compromise control in order to let people know that you're changing direction? Why have two ways of applying brakes? There are good reasons for all of these, but none of them make bikes less complicated to use.

Anyway.

Operation of the vehicle forms only a small part of the driving test. The bulk of the test is aimed at teaching people how to handle situations on the road. This knowledge is not something that most people can work out for themselves in an acceptable timeframe (i.e. without actually driving thousands of miles), so we have a system in place that teaches them those skills in a short timeframe and under fairly controlled conditions and then checks to make sure the skills have been learned to an acceptable standard.

I'd have to say that those skills are equally necessary on a bike, wouldn't you?

Ands

DesWeller wrote:

Operation of the vehicle forms only a small part of the driving test. The bulk of the test is aimed at teaching people how to handle situations on the road. This knowledge is not something that most people can work out for themselves in an acceptable timeframe (i.e. without actually driving thousands of miles), so we have a system in place that teaches them those skills in a short timeframe and under fairly controlled conditions and then checks to make sure the skills have been learned to an acceptable standard.

I'd have to say that those skills are equally necessary on a bike, wouldn't you?

For all the merits of the driving test, there is very little training in the realm of driver attitude or behaviour, or even consequence.

Most of the incidents I encounter with motorists are nothing to do with control of a vehicle or situation, and everything to do with attitude.

desweller

Ands wrote:

Most of the incidents I encounter with motorists are nothing to do with control of a vehicle or situation, and everything to do with attitude.

OK, so it's not perfect. Very little is. The point I was trying to make is that road cyclists are not required to learn any basic skills before being allowed to take to the road - and that can't be right or even logically justifiable.

desweller

rake wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

id be willing to do a test and did a proficiency test when i was at school. car drivers rip the rule buck up when they pass the test. i dont think testing would solve the attitude.i think its because they feel they can get away with it. the more mileage i do the more im concerned with being run over on a b road.

Well, I'm a driver and I didn't rip up the rule book. And in my experience of both driving and cycling the vast majority of drivers are courteous, patient and careful around cyclists. I get maybe one or two incidents a month (500 to 600 miles) when I'm riding. I think that's pretty good - but then I'm able to put UK driving into an international context; I have an idea of what the mean global standard is.

zanes

rake wrote:

car or bike or walking it doesnt matter. do you still grip the wheel with both hands and shuffle it through?

No. Obviously this is the same as "ripp(ing) the rule buck (sic) up" :roll:

You're making the classic mistake cyclists and drivers are two mutually exclusive groups.

downfader

DesWeller wrote:

downfader wrote:

I look at cars in the same way I look at the heavy machinery I use at work. Machinery needs training in order to be safely used, cycles are quite uncomplicated. :?

That's one of the daftest things I've read on this forum. Cars are vastly less complicated than bikes to operate. We are just accustomed to using bikes, but think about it - why have two ways of changing gear? Where's the rear view mirror? Why compromise control in order to let people know that you're changing direction? Why have two ways of applying brakes? There are good reasons for all of these, but none of them make bikes less complicated to use.

Anyway.

Operation of the vehicle forms only a small part of the driving test. The bulk of the test is aimed at teaching people how to handle situations on the road. This knowledge is not something that most people can work out for themselves in an acceptable timeframe (i.e. without actually driving thousands of miles), so we have a system in place that teaches them those skills in a short timeframe and under fairly controlled conditions and then checks to make sure the skills have been learned to an acceptable standard.

I'd have to say that those skills are equally necessary on a bike, wouldn't you?

I disagree still.

In a car you have three pedals to negotiate, a steering wheel, set of indicators, limited view due to vehicle pillar strengthening, the outside world is inaudible due to thick glass and engine noise and bolstered side panels in the doors, yes the gears are simply, but its not often up-down, its a Y config in most cars and engaging the clutch, its extremely heavy for the job in hand and needs a fair amount of control to bring it to an emergency stop safely (either tech or driver skill or both)

Where as I can hop on any bike and just ride. I dont need gears, or even brakes to a degree if I were to ride fixie. That to me says uncomplicated.

So I still disagree. A car is heavy machinery and should be treated with respect as such

EDIT: I'll amend this by adding that I have always thought that the Highway Copde should be taught in schools from a young age. The thing is, and people seem to forget this, is that pedestrians should also understand it and know its rules. It will help them also. I dont see people whinging about a Green Cross Code test before people are aloud out on their own.

desweller

downfader

So if you think the Highway Code should be taught in schools, you're saying that training is a necessity. I think we're actually in violent agreement here.

I ride as I drive, taking primary in lanes at turnings, negotiating roundabouts as a car would etc. etc. It would be an act of substantial arrogance for me to ride on the road if I hadn't the knowledge I gained while learning to drive. It would be chaos, not just for me but for road users around me as I would undoubtedly be a totally unpredictable quantity on the road.

downfader

DesWeller wrote:

downfader

So if you think the Highway Code should be taught in schools, you're saying that training is a necessity. I think we're actually in violent agreement here.

I ride as I drive, taking primary in lanes at turnings, negotiating roundabouts as a car would etc. etc. It would be an act of substantial arrogance for me to ride on the road if I hadn't the knowledge I gained while learning to drive. It would be chaos, not just for me but for road users around me as I would undoubtedly be a totally unpredictable quantity on the road.

Yep, I was diagreeing on the mechanics of the vehicles. Although I'm not conviced that a driving style test and training will work for cyclists when many of those bad cyclists have done a driving test (and probably drive as they ride).

Again I think this is an issue with effective Policing and them having the resources and time to crack down on the losers who ride like plebian missles through people, etc.