Tour of Oman Stage 4 ***SPOILER***

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

(Of course Cervelo may have intended to ride there anyway - they've done it before. And if you go for a pee with 50k to go then you're just asking for trouble).

Nail -> Head

But it does prove my point from before the season started that other teams can make it very difficult for you to win, even if they're not winning themselves. You need friends or you're fooked

Tusher

Still, at least he's learned that in the future, he'll just have to relieve himself without stopping.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

How else are they going to beat this Champion other than underhand tactics!

I don't know. Get a minor cross wind?

.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

You need friends or you're fooked

aye

greeny12

It does seem that Sky are getting some hard lessons in the rules of the jungle, doesn't it?

You'd think it would be Garmin or Katusha making life difficult for them, but at the moment the big beef seems to be with Cervelo, and Hammond in particular (note he was in top six finishers again, suggesting he was among those doing the 'driving')....

Going to make the classics a bit more spicy, especially if Sky get the chance for some payback against somebody like Hushovd or Haussler in a race they fancy. I could see them helping Cav, for example.

greeny12

greeny12 wrote:

It does seem that Sky are getting some hard lessons in the rules of the jungle, doesn't it?

You'd think it would be Garmin or Katusha making life difficult for them, but at the moment the big beef seems to be with Cervelo, and Hammond in particular (note he was in top six finishers again, suggesting he was among those doing the 'driving')....

Going to make the classics a bit more spicy, especially if Sky get the chance for some payback against somebody like Hushovd or Haussler in a race they fancy. I could see them helping Cav, for example.

Edit: And indeed it was Hammond at the head of affairs:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/oman-pe ... aggression

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned????

andyp

Hammond has been saying on Twitter that he's been misquoted. Stephen Farrand has responded saying he doesn't think he has, presumably as he did the interview and subsequent CN story.

thamacdaddy

I would have lived to have seen the reaction had this been sky putting the hammer down on cervelo roles reversed, can't believe I am Reading that most here who stand for fair play and all that are saying it's fair game. Guess the same can be said for cav closing the door on hushvod in the sprints then, oh no I remember the condemnation here for that.

Arveson etc on Twitter seem to be saying they can't believe what the others did today.

Also can we stop blabbing on about they have a lot to learn, they are not all neo pro's an it's a bit cringe i reckon. As backstedt commented on tour of Qatar last week yes sometimes there is a bit of gelling to get it perfect but as professionals you know how to ride in a team and execute standard tactics. Let's be even about this sky had their man in yellow and today while on a natural cervelo cause a break, can hardly call that fair or niave really. Credit due they ain't done too bad here and I am sure there is little bad blood, that's just media talk.

And to me that Hammond quote if true should be getting a right going over her. Only days ago he was apparently whinning that sky have up leaders and dis not chase the break and now they are doing too much on the front and not taking it slow enough.

Kléber

Reading Hammond's quotes on cyclingnews, it sounds reasonable, it was not as if everyone was slacking and Cervelo waited until EBH had stopped and then suddenly dynamited the race. It was a big mistake of EBH to stop and an even bigger mistake from Sky to allow him: you don't stop for a break with 30 miles to go.

Anyway, it's a mistake but it's not the end of the world, it would be a shame if teams and fans alike start turning on eachother.


Races longer than 4 minutes show Brailsford's on a learning curve!!!!!!

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Anyway, it's a mistake but it's not the end of the world, it would be a shame if teams and fans alike start turning on eachother.

But when fans look at how Sky were behaving and said "they're going to have problems", why can't the management of the team see and accept this?

How hard can it be to know that if you're leading the race overall, it's your teams duty to keep breaks in check? After all, that's why teams don't like holding the leaders jersey too early in a grand tour. It's not like any of these things are new.

Kléber

iainf72 wrote:

But when fans look at how Sky were behaving and said "they're going to have problems", why can't the management of the team see and accept this?

Because it would call into question the entire business model and ethical base of the team. It's easier just to say "you're jealous" rather than admit you trod on a lot of toes in the grab to sign Wiggins and Swift.

There have been several other instances too, I know one large Belgian team is just waiting to serve them a cold dish, their DS was annoyed by their anti-doping rhetoric which he took, rightly or wrongly, as a slur on his outfit. Pro cycling is a small world.

LangerDan

mididoctors wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

How else are they going to beat this Champion other than underhand tactics!

I don't know. Get a minor cross wind?

.

Father Vaughters is probably looking at spending his £2 million on a row of these, to be installed at a variety of points on the roadside:

stefrees

Kléber wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

But when fans look at how Sky were behaving and said "they're going to have problems", why can't the management of the team see and accept this?

Because it would call into question the entire business model and ethical base of the team. It's easier just to say "you're jealous" rather than admit you trod on a lot of toes in the grab to sign Wiggins and Swift.

There have been several other instances too, I know one large Belgian team is just waiting to serve them a cold dish, their DS was annoyed by their anti-doping rhetoric which he took, rightly or wrongly, as a slur on his outfit. Pro cycling is a small world.

thats just childish.

This whole thing is pretty damn pathetic, and I dont think Sky are the only ones in the wrong here. Theyll learn their lesson I'm sure, but quite a lot of other teams are acting pathetically. I notice a few comments from Liquigas seem to me that theyre the only team embarassed by the whole situation.

pontarlier_pete

stefrees wrote:

thats just childish.

This whole thing is pretty damn pathetic, and I dont think Sky are the only ones in the wrong here. Theyll learn their lesson I'm sure, but quite a lot of other teams are acting pathetically. I notice a few comments from Liquigas seem to me that theyre the only team embarassed by the whole situation.

It seems to me both Sky and other teams are equally at fault. Why can't things be discussed between DS's behind closed doors, or electronically misted glass, instead of the petty "You started it" on the road stuff. Still, it all adds to the show.

I always think of pro-footballers as basically just old primary school children. It's starting to look like cycling is quite similar... but maybe more 6th-formers than primary school.

squired

Personally I don't agree with the whole thing where it is your responsibility to lead the chase if you have the jersey. If you want to win the race you should be chasing. In this race Roger Hammond seemed to think they were chasing at a time when they shouldn't have been. Like a bunch of children...

Of course one could argue that Sky's tactics are working perfectly. On the day they lose the leaders jersey hardly anyone is talking about the new leader. All the articles are still about Sky. Thus objective achieved - they are still getting plenty of press.

iainf72

squired wrote:

Personally I don't agree with the whole thing where it is your responsibility to lead the chase if you have the jersey.

It's usually the done thing, no? With great jerseys comes great responsibility.

frenchfighter

greeny12 wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/oman-peloton-makes-team-sky-pay-for-their-aggression

Interesting. The story is never clear until all sides are heard. Hammering in the feed zone is totally unacceptable.

They need to earn their place in the peloton before they try and swing their weight around. Such an arrogant attitude of them that they should be right up there having respect just because they have a big budget.

fungus_the_muffin_man

I only started taking an interest in cycling and racing last year. And I find all this pretty boggling! Unwritten rules, not being allowed to attack when the leader's having a wee, teams working not for their own teams but for other teams. It's like a form of the masons but on 2 wheels. It certainately makes cycling exciting. I just have to try and work it all out now :?

can someone do me an idiots guide please

pedro118118

Seems to me this has been blown out of all proportion, just because Sky have such a high media profile. I'm sure these situations arise all the time - they are just not worthy of reporting unless there's an 'angle'. Clearly the 'angle' here is that the peleton 'hates' Sky, so it gets done to death.

The fundemental issue really is that EBH shouldn't have stopped so late into the race, but I'm sure he'll learn from that.

There's only two teams who have a genuine basis for a 'grudge' - Katusha and Garmin. If anything, Columbia and Saxo-Bank's roster was more heavily plundered, but they seem pretty pragmatic.

Still.............we all love a bit of needle to spice up the race, don't we? Hell - inter-team needle was the only thing that spiced up last year's Tour - without that it would've been yawn-inducing.

Kléber

pedro118118 wrote:

we all love a bit of needle to spice up the race, don't we?

Personally I don't like this. It's soap-opera stuff, predictable and never-ending. I'd much rather we discuss proper tactics and form rather than the endless politics.

The Prodigy

All this tit-for-tat rubbish is boring. Lets hope it is put to bed before the season proper starts. Its just getting in the way of the racing.

pedro118118

Well - each to their own.

There's always going to be friends and foes in the peleton - always has been - and the relationship/conflict between certain riders and teams is intriguing. Clearly, unreasonable pettiness is not good, but genuine rivalry is what elite sport is all about isn't it?

mididoctors

pedro118118 wrote:

Seems to me this has been blown out of all proportion, just because Sky have such a high media profile. I'm sure these situations arise all the time - they are just not worthy of reporting unless there's an 'angle'. Clearly the 'angle' here is that the peloton 'hates' Sky, so it gets done to death.

The fundemental issue really is that EBH shouldn't have stopped so late into the race, but I'm sure he'll learn from that.

There's only two teams who have a genuine basis for a 'grudge' - Katusha and Garmin. If anything, Columbia and Saxo-Bank's roster was more heavily plundered, but they seem pretty pragmatic.

Still.............we all love a bit of needle to spice up the race, don't we? Hell - inter-team needle was the only thing that spiced up last year's Tour - without that it would've been yawn-inducing.

telekom vs Banesto 1997

all year feud stemming from olano being attacked while on a natural break

IIRC udo bolts win at the dauphine (or midi?) the result of a attack orchestrated by Riis (then a rider) on Olano of Banesto


payback in the tour when Banesto help pantani split the peleton on a rolling transition stage dumping Riis off his podium spot

hockinsk

So essentially:

1. Sky were on front chasing the break at 7.00 minutes
2. They chased through the Feed zone at 98km remaining (not unheard of to do this, but who do you believe?)
2. By the last intermediate sprint at 121km the gap was down to 2.40 with 66km remaining (pretty normal then for a sprint stage - i.e. let the break get 7-8 minutes, then start chasing down to about 2 minutes with 50km remaining where other sprint teams contribute to the chase for their sprinters)
3. EBH now takes a piss (66km remaining). Sky are controlling the race all day, so pretty normal behaviour I would say. i.e. Boonen/QuickStep has done this plenty of times in last 50km of race, especially if his team are in control of the race anyway like Sky.
4. Sky are on the front chasing so would naturally ease off while race leader had a piss, then re-group and carry on chasing.
5. Riders hit crosswind while EBH is pissing and I guess one team mate to pace him back to peleton.
6. Several teams now blow up the race.
7. 40 riders against a chasing Sky who have been on the front all day will always gain time.
8. Sky looses race.

Really, Sky should have got one rider into the group of 40, but didn't and I guess didn't have anyone else high up GC to make it work anyway?

DaveyL

iainf72 wrote:

squired wrote:

Personally I don't agree with the whole thing where it is your responsibility to lead the chase if you have the jersey.

It's usually the done thing, no? With great jerseys comes great responsibility.

Lionel doesn't think so:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... loton.html

"Whose responsibility is it to chase a breakaway?
Team Sky were criticised by others for allowing a break in the Tour of Qatar to get too much of a lead, before trying to rope in help when it was starting to look dangerous. Who does the chasing is a tactical matter, not one of convention. Some teams would do well to remember that the race leader's team is not obliged to defend that lead. Perhaps Team Sky didn't want to slog on the front for three hours every day in February? Perhaps they had another tactical reason not to chase and if they did, that's up to them. Nothing was stopping one of the other teams chasing if they wanted to bring it back together."

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

Lionel doesn't think so:

I follow him on twitter - He's some kind of wierd darts fan, isn't he?

Just kidding Lionel.

Even if you don't "chase" usually the leading team rides on the front during the stage and controls things a bit.

DaveyL

More dramatic breaking news: some people think it's no big deal and don't have a problem with Sky! What a shocker!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/debate- ... _headlines

Boonen: "It was a race thing, it happens"

Tom Boonen (Quick Step) was one of the riders who took advantage of the attack but he insisted that he and the other riders who made the front echelon had not broken any unwritten rules.

"I don't think anybody did anything wrong, it was a race thing, it happens. It could have happened to anybody," he told Cyclingnews.

"I was near the front when it happened and Team Sky was pulling pretty hard. Then Boasson Hagen went for a pee but they kept pulling pretty hard."

"Boasson Hagen got back in the group, he wasn't behind, but the problem was that Cervelo passed to the left (forming an echelon) because Sky were pulling with just two guys and not the whole team. Everybody just saw it and 'Vroooom!', 30 guys went and the group split up."

Boonen suggested that the attack happened because Team Sky failed to let the rest of the peloton know what was happening.

"If the team had slowed down when he (Boasson Hagen) stopped, making it obvious that it was a pee stop, I don't think there would have been a problem and everybody would have stopped with him," he said.

"There wasn't so much wind that you couldn't take a pee. But if your team keeps riding at 48km/h and everybody has seen you suffering and you don't make the point that your leader has stopped, the race goes on and sometimes you lose the jersey."

Farrar: " You can't expect the whole peloton to stop"

Garmin-Transitions' Tyler Farrar was also in the front group that gained 1:05 on Boasson Hagen and shared his thoughts on what happened.

"The way I look at it is this. For me it wasn't that the peloton attacked while he (Edvald Boasson Hagen) was standing on the side of the road. He stopped 10km before the crosswinds really picked up but his team kept riding tempo on the front," Farrar told Cyclingnews.

"It's a pity for Boasson Hagen to lose the race that way because he's very strong. It was just unfortunate the way it played out, but to a certain extent, that's bike racing. I wouldn't have expected them to wait for me if I'd been in that situation."

Farrar insisted that there is no animosity towards Team Sky in the peloton.

"I don't feel it. I actually have a lot of friends in that team," he said.

"This isn't a race decided by big margins and there are only a few opportunities to gain time and so guys wanted to gain time by splitting the field in the wind. No one was surprised when the crosswind came, we all knew it was coming a long time before."

"That's part of racing and there's only a few moments of racing when things can break up. In those situations, you can't expect the whole peloton to stop when you want them to."

Kléber

Brailsford still has lots to learn. I suppose his track background meant he didn't have to deal with crosswinds and feed zones!!!!!!!

DaveyL

Brailsford did race as a pro in France for 4 years. Maybe it was calm all that time...

ballspondroad

I've been wondering why EBH stopped, rather than going on the move, and it seems he might have been being considerate - 'There wasn't so much wind that you couldn't take a pee', says Mr Boonen. So perhaps EBH disagreed and was just sparing the other chaps a shower - see he's a nice boy and his mum would be proud !