hi viz science

wyadvd

has anyone of scientific bent come accross any proper papers investigating the incidence of accidents amoungst cyclists wearing fluoro yellow jackets as against black ones during the day. And i dont mean a copy and paste from sheldon brown or cyclecraft!

Im lusting after the showers pass softshell in black btw

downfader

As far as I'm aware there is little other than a tallying up of data from accidents. No real research as such on hiviz, reflectives or even bright colours.

I say buy what you like, just be aware that decent lights help, as do bright gloves, etc at night when indicating.

prj45

I saw a scooter rider wearing a hi viz tabbard the other day. On the back it said:

"I'm wearing this to cover sombody else's arse".

Which about sums up my attitude to hi viz.

PBo

There was quite a heated debate on this previously,

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12662311

and I looked for some research

But rather than just spout my own opinion, I thought I'd see if there's any research.

Actually, not a lot exists - but there are 2 main pieces of research I could find looking at motorcycle safety which address hi-viz (the 2nd which is quite recent didn't cite any other research, so I'm not "forgetting" some anti hi-viz report.

Hurt report - major US study in the 70s on motorcyle safety. (EDIT: actually1981)
http://isddc.dot.gov/OLPFiles/NHTSA/013695.pdf
University of Aukland published in BMJ
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857

Basically both conclude that Hi Viz is effective.

Now - you can point out all sorts of issues with the research if you like - motorbikes, not bicycles, lack of distinction between reflective/flouro, whatever. You can bang on about reflective only working over a limited angle etc. or at certain times of day. You can say that having lights on is more effective (probably no-one disagreeing with you) But research shows IN GENERAL, hi-viz reduces accidents or their seriousness.

one thing to note - i think people had different ideas of what hi-viz means, some just meaning bright colours, others also meaning reflectiveness....

always_tyred

Isn't this all just wishful thinking?

Do ambulances come in black? What about police cars or fire engines?

Tonymufc

Always Tyred wrote:

Isn't this all just wishful thinking?

Do ambulances come in black? What about police cars or fire engines?

Some ambulances come in black. But you definately don't want to be in the back of those ones.

rjsterry

Have you tried RoSPA? It sounds like the sort of thing hey migh investigate.

jedster

Isn't this all just wishful thinking?

Of course it is. People, understandably, don't like the way hi-viz looks and would prefer not to wear it. It is more comfortable to say "it doesn't work" than "it works a bit but I'll take my chances and not wear it".

Disclosure - I mostly don't wear it. And I think I'm a bit less safe as a result. This winter I have been wearing a hi-viz tabbard thing a bit more. It is one with flashing LEDs as well as reflectives and hi-viz yellow. If you're going to do something...

lost_in_thought

jedster wrote:

Isn't this all just wishful thinking?

Of course it is. People, understandably, don't like the way hi-viz looks and would prefer not to wear it. It is more comfortable to say "it doesn't work" than "it works a bit but I'll take my chances and not wear it".

Disclosure - I mostly don't wear it. And I think I'm a bit less safe as a result. This winter I have been wearing a hi-viz tabbard thing a bit more. It is one with flashing LEDs as well as reflectives and hi-viz yellow. If you're going to do something...

+1

Not the flashy tabard bit though. Although I do now have a hi-viz orange jacket that I quite like.

always_tyred

Tonymufc wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Isn't this all just wishful thinking?

Do ambulances come in black? What about police cars or fire engines?

Some ambulances come in black. But you definately don't want to be in the back of those ones.

You don't have to look THAT horrific in high vis....



(and its so cheap, too..... :? )[/img]

antfly

It looks horrific.

always_tyred

antfly wrote:

It looks horrific.

Wear black then. I'm afraid you probably look horrific anyway, though.

EDIT - that's supposed to be a joke by the way. Its all comparative. Its better than something made by Altura or Respro.

antfly

I do wear black, I am the Man in Black, although I have a red jacket too.
I think I look pretty darn good in my gear, thanks.

downfader

Wasnt there also a German study too on building sites that found a "saturation point" in hiviz where when everyone wears flouro yellow how nobody takes any more notice, but those that actually need it if its limited to them it works.

As a side note, got in a conversation a while back at work and this matey pipes up how all builders and workmen wear it. He said you could probably get away with some kind of subversive activity if you wear it, as people would glance and go "ahh workman" and just carry on by. :?

Clever Pun

Always Tyred wrote:

Isn't this all just wishful thinking?

Do ambulances come in black? What about police cars or fire engines?

Everyone see's the A-team van easy enough... Black and Red ...yes

Clever Pun

antfly wrote:

I do wear black, I am the man in black although I have a red jacket too.
I think I look pretty darn good in my gear, thanks.

this I have reflective strips (scotchlite?) on the jacket/my bag etc I believe the contrast of these makes the effect no less 'hi-vis' than the silly tabards (for example)

antfly

And in the same vein my black jacket has a very narrow reflective line on the arms and the back and front of the shoulders which stand out nicely against the black.

rjsterry

I too go for black with lashings of scotchlite at night (Night Vision head to toe - I must light up like a CHristmas tree but never see it myself), but have a Pearl Izumi flouro gillet for gloomy day use. Definitely not a tabard as is pretty snug fit, and does keep the wind off as well. Picked it up at that massive Evans clearance sale down at Gatwick the other year so an absolute bargain.

Really not worried about looking like a freak - I'm a man in tights for half the year for goodness sake.

always_tyred

downfader wrote:

Wasnt there also a German study too on building sites that found a "saturation point" in hiviz where when everyone wears flouro yellow how nobody takes any more notice, but those that actually need it if its limited to them it works.

As a side note, got in a conversation a while back at work and this matey pipes up how all builders and workmen wear it. He said you could probably get away with some kind of subversive activity if you wear it, as people would glance and go "ahh workman" and just carry on by. :?

Ahh, but that still doesn't mean that people wearing dark clothes are any MORE visible. It just means that wearing high vis doesn't do you any good.

Best advice at that point would be to dress as a circus clown, with a flashing nose.

downfader

Always Tyred wrote:

downfader wrote:

Wasnt there also a German study too on building sites that found a "saturation point" in hiviz where when everyone wears flouro yellow how nobody takes any more notice, but those that actually need it if its limited to them it works.

As a side note, got in a conversation a while back at work and this matey pipes up how all builders and workmen wear it. He said you could probably get away with some kind of subversive activity if you wear it, as people would glance and go "ahh workman" and just carry on by. :?

Ahh, but that still doesn't mean that people wearing dark clothes are any MORE visible. It just means that wearing high vis doesn't do you any good.

Best advice at that point would be to dress as a circus clown, with a flashing nose.

I know. And I said as much on another forum (clown wise)

tailwindhome

I think there is a huge gap in the market for a darker coloured gilet or jacket but with the same coverage of reflective stripes as the 'workmans tabard'

Maybe there is such a product but I can't find one at a reasonable price

jimmypippa

Not quite what you were thinking about:

but...

Hmm :?

http://www.dashingtweeds.co.uk/dt/tailoredoutfits/tailored-outfits-sub1/

always_tyred

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

I think there is a huge gap in the market for a darker coloured gilet or jacket but with the same coverage of reflective stripes as the 'workmans tabard'

Maybe there is such a product but I can't find one at a reasonable price

There are plenty of dark garments festooned with reflective fabirc on the market.

What use is reflective in dull overcast conditions when half the drivers have no light on and the other half have side lights on?

You still need the colour.

Fireblade96

At the end of the Silly Commuters' Offroad Snow Ride the other month, we were all slogging up a hill, on road, in the gathering dusk. Some had lights, some hadn't. I was lagging pretty much behind :-(

Looking up the hill, only one cyclist was really visible from a distance - the one with a (at least partially) hi-viz jacket.

All the "I've got loads of reflectives" only works when you're in the headlights / under the streetlights. At dusk and even in the gloomy daytime we have at the minute, something hi-viz will dramatically enhance your visibility to half-asleep, on-the-mobile, distracted car drivers.

I don't like wearing hi-viz. When I cycled to work in civvies I realised that I was clad head to toe in black, so I threw on a builder-style tabard over the top. Looks cack but is easily removable on arrival for the restoration of the stealth look.

Now, I'm on the lookout for a non-yellow, relatively hi-viz, sleek-fitting jacket that I won't be embarrassed to wear into town. Any suggestions ?

antfly

Some people would suit one of these.


This isn`t yellow.

sarajoy

Nothing to stop you getting a top your don't mind wearing but equally don't mind sewing/ironing - and making your own: http://www.beseenonabike.co.uk/acatalog ... tapes.html

Fireblade96

Anyone got one of these ? If so, how bright is it ?


(I know, I should go to the bike shop. I'm busy so I'm asking the hive mind for advice on clothing. It's a bit like your Mum choosing your clothes....)

rjsterry

sarajoy wrote:

Nothing to stop you getting a top your don't mind wearing but equally don't mind sewing/ironing - and making your own: http://www.beseenonabike.co.uk/acatalog ... tapes.html

What with this and your braces suggestions, I think you should set up a cycle clothing cottage industry. Maybe you make some Such Bicycles branded kit for Roastie.

tailwindhome

Always Tyred wrote:

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

I think there is a huge gap in the market for a darker coloured gilet or jacket but with the same coverage of reflective stripes as the 'workmans tabard'

Maybe there is such a product but I can't find one at a reasonable price

There are plenty of dark garments festooned with reflective fabirc on the market.

What use is reflective in dull overcast conditions when half the drivers have no light on and the other half have side lights on?

You still need the colour.

I haven't seen any. Or at least not as festooned as I would like

Surely the colour is irrelevant in the pitch black of unlit roads. However I take your point about drivers lights.

jimmypippa

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

WheezyMcChubby wrote:

I think there is a huge gap in the market for a darker coloured gilet or jacket but with the same coverage of reflective stripes as the 'workmans tabard'

Maybe there is such a product but I can't find one at a reasonable price

There are plenty of dark garments festooned with reflective fabirc on the market.

What use is reflective in dull overcast conditions when half the drivers have no light on and the other half have side lights on?

You still need the colour.

I haven't seen any. Or at least not as festooned as I would like

Surely the colour is irrelevant in the pitch black of unlit roads. However I take your point about drivers lights.

I don't know about when you commute, but I do spend a significant part of the year commuting in twilight when people *should* use lights, but numpties (in motor vehicles, and on bikes) don't. In these situations, bright bike lights, and dayglow colours work well. reflectives don't.

In bright sunlight, I would contend that one is still more easily visible in dayglow than other colours.

In the *pitch* dark, scotchlite and lights work best (assuming that cars have their lights on). There is an additional benefit of relfectives in that if a car has their lights on full beam, then the reflectives can be so bright that they sometimes to dip their lights to avoid dazzling themselves.

tailwindhome

JimmyPippa

I don't disagree with anything you have written in your last post, however I still want a darker (Red or Black) gilet with loads of reflectives stripes.

I also will be buying these, when the are reduced in the spring and stash them away for next year.