2 x 20 Intervals

sampras38

I've been doing the 2 x 20 sessions quite a lot on the Turbo of late and really seem to get getting a lot out of them.

What sort of effort are you lot putting in on the 20 min part?

Would I be right to keep it just below my threshold...say around the 85% MHR?

SBezza

85% is more like tempo/sweetspot pace is it not, I would have thought 90% + would be the range you are looking at. I am sure some others may comment otherwise.

sampras38

SBezza wrote:

85% is more like tempo/sweetspot pace is it not, I would have thought 90% + would be the range you are looking at. I am sure some others may comment otherwise.

I've ridden some of them at 90% but it has tended to be the latter parts of the 2nd 20 minutes. I'm interested in hearing what others do.

DaSy

I ride at above 90%, at present 93% of FTP rather than MHR though, for both intervals with a 5 min rest. If I want to truly brutalise myself I will attempt 95%, which is this afternoons session....I can't wait.

I only do these once a week, and Tuesday is the day.

Gav888

Im only doing these once a week at the moment, well, I am when im not ill!! but I use LTHR and keep mine in high zone 4 or approx 95% of my LTHR, which is about 90% MHR I think....

sampras38

Cheers guys,

I've been mixing these up with the odd sufferfest session too, and occasional light hourly spin at around 75% of MHR, with 1, possibly 2 if i'm lucky, long rides at the weekend.

Sheptastic

Gav888 wrote:

Im only doing these once a week at the moment, well, I am when im not ill!! but I use LTHR and keep mine in high zone 4 or approx 95% of my LTHR, which is about 90% MHR I think....

bloody hell, man points for you!

shockedsoshocked

I try to hit 95% max HR, which is above my LTHR at last measurement (about 90% max HR). Horrible, horrible things (try 3x20s, they're even more enjoyable!)

chrisw12

Using power, anything over 100% of ftp. If I was using hr then it would be 25 mille tt average which should be near to 90% mhr.

I don't see the point of doing them too much under ftp.

Anonymous

I do mine right at or a tiny bit above FTP.

Seeing as you are supposed to be able to maintain FTP for an hour, 20 mins isn't soooo bad?!?

MatthewBulmer

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I try to hit 95% max HR.

Fair play to you. I bet you look forward to that session each week. :shock:

I aim for an average of 90% of max HR between the 2 sets.

amaferanga

Knowing your LTHR would to me seem to be quite important in determining the right HR for a 2 x 20 session.

sampras38

Had another go last night and for the bulk of the 2 x 20 mins I was in the 85-93% MHR

It was hard going but good...;-)

disgruntledgoat

I've been doing them at 90% MHR with 1 minute recovery between them. I'm not fussed if i'mup at 92% or down at 88% really, however. Coach Sam has also decided that after a few weeks of 2x20s, 3x15s are the way to go!

I have one VO2 workout per week when I push it up to 95% and beyond, and that's quite enough for me.

Edwin

That sounds about right. These sessions are supposed to increase FTP aren't they? So presumably you should be at least on your threshold level, preferably slightly above. I'm using power but usually hit 90-95% Max HR during a 2x20.
For anyone using WKO, I'm getting a TSS of 79 - 84 for these sessions. Obviously I realise this depends on how you've set FTP. I established mine by doing a one hour test when I was going quite well the other week, this week I'm really tired and struggling to hold my FTP level for a few minutes, let alone a whole hour!
Maybe it's a sign I need an easy week, sounds like a fair excuse anyway

DaSy

I don't think you have to exceed your threshold power to get the benefits of training at around that level.

Training at above FTP is going to be a tough workout on a 2 x 20, and so much harder to recover from and thus you will have to leave longer between workouts.

Anywhere from about 90% to 105% FTP, depending on where you are with your training schedule is about right I think.

Bhima

95% of FTP gives the most increase:



Good read: http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspotpartdeux.html

sampras38

Here's the Garmin data, which as you can see is very basic. Just HR and cadence.

Started with 10 min warm up - to 60%
20 Mins, 5 min rest, 20 mins, 5 min cool down

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/23845415

Gav888

Agree with above, for LTHR between 90% and 105% of your LTHR is where you need to be to raise your power or speed at threshold, but going a bit higher, say 110% will also do it, but you wont be able to do it for as long, plus it will take longer to recover from. Your getting into vo2max training then.

As above, sweet spot training could be worth looking to...

amaferanga

sampras38 wrote:

Here's the Garmin data, which as you can see is very basic. Just HR and cadence.

Started with 10 min warm up - to 60%
20 Mins, 5 min rest, 20 mins, 5 min cool down

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/23845415

If you post data like this then you should expect arsey comments, so here goes from me....

- You should use the lap button for your 2x20's so you can effectively compare the two 20min efforts and exclude the warm-up/rest from week-on-week comparisons

- I'm no expert, but I know that warming up at <60% MHR doesn't really prepare you for the 20min effort at >85% MHR which seems to be reflected in the time it takes your HR to rise. You should maybe try some higher intensity efforts during your warm-up.

- Also, your HR and cadence are all over the place during the 20min efforts - why don't you hold a steady pace?


Here's one of mine for comparison and the opportunity to return the arsey comments

sampras38

amaferanga wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

Here's the Garmin data, which as you can see is very basic. Just HR and cadence.

Started with 10 min warm up - to 60%
20 Mins, 5 min rest, 20 mins, 5 min cool down

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/23845415

If you post data like this then you should expect arsey comments, so here goes from me....

- You should use the lap button for your 2x20's so you can effectively compare the two 20min efforts and exclude the warm-up/rest from week-on-week comparisons

- I'm no expert, but I know that warming up at <60% MHR doesn't really prepare you for the 20min effort at >85% MHR which seems to be reflected in the time it takes your HR to rise. You should maybe try some higher intensity efforts during your warm-up.

- Also, your HR and cadence are all over the place during the 20min efforts - why don't you hold a steady pace?


Here's one of mine for comparison and the opportunity to return the arsey comments

Hey, I appreciate you taking the time to respond but you don't have to come across as know-it-all in the process. I'm sure there's plenty of subjects I could teach you a thing or 2..;-)

I'm new to this 2 x 20 malarky so give us a break.

Poulsy

I thought he was being fairly constructive...

Tom Butcher

My HR profile looks pretty similar to Amafarenga's but I couldn't tell you what percentage of MHR that is as I haven't done a test. Did see 186 some years ago out of the saddle up a steep hill but flat out up a longer hill on a chaingang only gets me to low 170s so I'm guessing somewhere in the region of 180. Amaferanga - be interested to know your max?

Say if my HR reaches 160 at the end of the intervals (it tends to rise slowly but steadily) is that the HR to read off as the effort I'm putting in as a percentage of MHR rather than the average given I'm keeping the power constant so I know I'm not actually making it harder over the 20 ?

I've yet to buy a fan for turbo training and even doing them at night in an unheated garage in winter I feel that at least part of the difficulty of them is overheating - at the time I don't feel I could go any harder but afterwards my legs don't feel like they've been completely wrecked. I realise the idea isn't to complete wreck your legs but during the 20s it does feel like the kind of effort that would leave me more fatigued than it actually does.

On cadence does it matter if we keep a steady cadence ? I sometimes break it up a bit if I'm suffering majorly by doing a bit at a lower cadence in a bigger gear - so long as I keep the power measurement on the turbo fairly constant I can't see why that should necessarily be a problem.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Tom Butcher wrote:

I've yet to buy a fan for turbo training and even doing them at night in an unheated garage in winter I feel that at least part of the difficulty of them is overheating

IME, a big powerful fan makes a sizeable difference to one's ability to generate power.

Tom Butcher wrote:

On cadence does it matter if we keep a steady cadence ?

Doesn't matter much, do 'em anyway you feel like.

sampras38

Poulsy wrote:

I thought he was being fairly constructive...

It was more the first sentence tbh..

rabk

Any suggestion on how long a recovery there should be between the 2 intervals - 5 mins perhaps? :?:

DaSy

I use 5 minutes, but I don't think there is a hard and fast rule. I've heard between 5 and 10 minutes.

rabk

Just about to start using these intervals again and had previously recovered for 10 mins which in hindsight I think is too long - will try 5 and see how I get on

ut_och_cykla

I do

8 mins warm
20
7 active rest
20
5 cool down. No special reason for 7 except it fits nicely in an hour.

Slimbods

For me:


10 mins warm up (find something 30 mins long to watch on iplayer)
20 mins hard
5 mins lighter gear (first 30 min show ended on iplayer set up 2nd 30 min show...)
20 mins hard
5 mins rest

sampras38

Slimbods wrote:

For me:


10 mins warm up (find something 30 mins long to watch on iplayer)
20 mins hard
5 mins lighter gear (first 30 min show ended on iplayer set up 2nd 30 min show...)
20 mins hard
5 mins rest

+1