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One for the fitness/training guru types.

DanEvsDanEvs Posts: 640
Ok so I'm relatively fit and do a fair amount of training between the mtb and road but I'm slowly finding myself looking at more road races/crits and TT's instead of the mtb enduro's I was doing last year.

I've recently started riding with a bloody fit lad who's regularly doing tens in the low 20's and I'm getting a sound thrashing on the hills and any windy flat sections as you'd expect. The problem is that I'm a much faster and stronger rider on my mtb than I am on the roadie to the point where I can pace him at max effort up the hills if I'm on my mtb and he's on his roadie! As soon as I'm on my roadie (which is a great fit and very comfortable, not to mention much more aero) he's wiping the floor with me! :?

After a ride last night with us both on road bikes and tonight with me on the mtb we're both convinced I'm significantly stronger on the hills and my average speed over a 35mile road route is near enough the same! :?

Very confused and looking for an explanation and way forward please folks. :D

Posts

  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    What tyres on you road bike?

    Brakes rubbing on road bike? :?
  • DanEvsDanEvs Posts: 640
    chrisw12 wrote:
    What tyres on you road bike?

    Brakes rubbing on road bike? :?

    Pro3 Race and the brakes are well clear. Stiff wheelset means no rubbing under power either.

    Mtb is 3kgs heavier and the tyres are 2.1 Schwalbe Nobby Nics. I'm wondering if the wider bars/bar ends are helping me but then I'm not particularly broad across my shoulders.

    I'm definitely in a more upright position on the mtb.
  • Get a heart rate monitor setup and go out with him on each bike recording your heart rates and you will be able to see the difference im sure.
    You will then be able to use the information and see things more clearly.i think
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    DanEvs wrote:
    chrisw12 wrote:
    What tyres on you road bike?

    Brakes rubbing on road bike? :?

    Pro3 Race and the brakes are well clear. Stiff wheelset means no rubbing under power either.

    Mtb is 3kgs heavier and the tyres are 2.1 Schwalbe Nobby Nics. I'm wondering if the wider bars/bar ends are helping me but then I'm not particularly broad across my shoulders.

    I'm definitely in a more upright position on the mtb.
    :? :?

    So you are saying that you are slower on your road bike than you are on your mtb (using a friend as a comparison)?

    If so, that's just strange!
  • DanEvsDanEvs Posts: 640
    Yes it's definitely strange...

    Here's the data from my Garmin for the ride on the roadie then the mtb.

    Last night on the roadie there was quite a headwind but not as bad as tonight on the mtb where the wind was really swirling about and on the nose quite a lot (so much so that we cut the ride slightly short tonight).

    Roadie
    Roadie.jpg

    Mtb
    MTB.jpg

    Note that even after the previous days ride my pace was still only marginally better on the roadie even though I was coming off a recovery day and we had much less wind.

    I also spent less time in HR zone four on the mtb and more in zone three so there's obviously something in my theory that I'm faster/more efficient on the nobblies. :shock:

    :?
  • Difference in gearing? Are you mashing a bigger gear on the road bike, then spinning on the smaller gear on the MTB? Or even the other way round?
    "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"

    PTP Runner Up 2015
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    Different gearing and so cadence might be the answer, but given that we all agreed that cadence was a red herring on the other thread :roll: I don't think that gives an answer. In fact the lack of top gearing on a mtb could make things worse on a rolling course.

    Basically, your mtb was only 1mph slower than your road bike on a similar sort of ride? I don't know if that's significant or not (1 mph :o ) my gut feeling is that MY mtb rides are more than 1mph slower than similar road bike rides.

    Might be worth finding a long hill near your home and ride it with the two different bikes and see what happens. Not exactly scientific but it might allow you to put a figure on it.

    Out of interest, what is your tip of saddle to end of stem measurement on both bikes?
    Also what is the saddle to bar drop on both bikes? Are the y the same on both bikes?
  • DanEvsDanEvs Posts: 640
    chrisw12 wrote:
    Out of interest, what is your tip of saddle to end of stem measurement on both bikes?
    Also what is the saddle to bar drop on both bikes? Are the y the same on both bikes?

    Off out to ride the Dyfi forest now so I'll take some measurements this evening and see what you think.

    The more I think about it the more I think its gotta be position/setup related. Everyone else is significantly faster on their roadie's than mtb's, if I can make the same gains on my road bike I should see a massive improvement in races TT's etc.
  • tlw1tlw1 Posts: 18,355
    does the road bike feel ok when you are riding it?
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    Are the photos in your sig line your current bikes and set up?

    If they are, it doesn't look like there's anything radically different in the set up of all three bikes. You have a lot more drop on the Boardman which may account for slower than expected climbing times, but the aero advantage would cancel that out over long rides. It also looks like you've got your saddle pointed down a bit. Not sure what difference that would make though.

    Do you use the mtb mostly? I wonder with that different amount of drop if perhaps you're closing up your hip angle more than you are used to and are loosing power that way? As I said this COULD make for slower climbing but should be faster overall so still a bit :?
  • InfamousInfamous Posts: 1,158
    chrisw12 wrote:
    Different gearing and so cadence might be the answer, but given that we all agreed that cadence was a red herring on the other thread :roll:
    Just because "cadence is a red herring" (aren't catchphrases great?) doesn't mean it has no affect on speed. Otherwise we'd be able to ride at 20rpm or 150rpm at the same power for the same duration; we can't.

    I don't think cadence is the problem here though, I think Dan, as a MTBer, possibly hasn't adapted to the road bike position.
  • GavHGavH Posts: 998
    Could this be a setup issue whereby something 'small' like cleat position, crank arm length or suchlike is causing the OP to generate more force with each stroke on one bike over the other?
  • DanEvsDanEvs Posts: 640
    chrisw12 wrote:
    Are the photos in your sig line your current bikes and set up?

    If they are, it doesn't look like there's anything radically different in the set up of all three bikes. You have a lot more drop on the Boardman which may account for slower than expected climbing times, but the aero advantage would cancel that out over long rides. It also looks like you've got your saddle pointed down a bit. Not sure what difference that would make though.

    Do you use the mtb mostly? I wonder with that different amount of drop if perhaps you're closing up your hip angle more than you are used to and are loosing power that way? As I said this COULD make for slower climbing but should be faster overall so still a bit :?

    Bikes are as per pics in sig barring new saddles on the Boardman and the Giant (same saddle though).

    Cadence could come into it maybe and the crank arms are 2.5 mm shorter on my Boardman.

    I spent last season hammering the mtb and with only a little road riding thrown in, so I'm naturally more comfortable on it but the Boardman certainly isn't uncomfy. :?

    I think I'm going to do some more testing next week, do my usual 20 mile hilly route on them both and see what results I achieve. Might end up selling the Boardman and fitting slicks to my Giant at this rate. :D
  • bristolpetebristolpete Posts: 2,255
    Very interesting and I would say endemic of people who move to road machines and then find the gearing/drivetrains unforgiving. Reckon there are loads of permutations involved here but if you can ride an MTB like that then you surely should be superb on a road bike over time...?

    I did some hill training this morning and noticed a shadow on my back wheel. Looked back and saw a whippet on a full sus MTB letting me pull him up. Cheeky git...but fair play.
  • DanEvsDanEvs Posts: 640
    Very interesting and I would say endemic of people who move to road machines and then find the gearing/drivetrains unforgiving. Reckon there are loads of permutations involved here but if you can ride an MTB like that then you surely should be superb on a road bike over time...?

    I did some hill training this morning and noticed a shadow on my back wheel. Looked back and saw a whippet on a full sus MTB letting me pull him up. Cheeky git...but fair play.

    Maybe it is just a case of letting myself get used to the format.

    I've done that before, riding along day-dreaming on my Giant near Betws Y Coed when two lads on roadies came past and scared the censored out of me, a few seconds to compose myself and I chased hard to get on their wheel where I sat for the next two mins before they eased up (assuming they'd dropped me) and then it was my turn to come belting past. Think they were a little shocked. :D

    You'll find that the majority of fast mtb racers will spend large amounts of time training on the road anyway, riding off road all the time just ruins your bike/kit in double quick time. :(
  • chrisw12chrisw12 Posts: 1,246
    DanEvs wrote:
    Very interesting and I would say endemic of people who move to road machines and then find the gearing/drivetrains unforgiving. Reckon there are loads of permutations involved here but if you can ride an MTB like that then you surely should be superb on a road bike over time...?

    I did some hill training this morning and noticed a shadow on my back wheel. Looked back and saw a whippet on a full sus MTB letting me pull him up. Cheeky git...but fair play.

    Maybe it is just a case of letting myself get used to the format.

    :(

    Yes, I think that's the key lesson here. Give it some time to adapt.
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