Someone explain to me the benefits of eletronic shifting

il_principe

They're working on electronic, but would you trust Italian electronics...



I love the idea of electronic shifting, but I'm not paying that sort of cash to guinea pig something! Lets wait and see what SRAM and Campag come up with first...

If I get a fat insurance payout from my accident in 18 months or so then I *might* consider electronic.

Rich158

I'm in the same boat, if I can get something with electronic shifting when I get a big fat cheque great, until then they can keep it.

How's the shoulder by the way IP, back to normal yet?

patchy

pst88 wrote:

I guess one advantage would be that you could have one set of shifters on the aero extensions of a TT bike and ANOTHER set on the base bars allowing you to shift from both positions? I don't know if the groupset supports multiple shifters but it might be cool. Not that I have a TT bike or could ever afford di2.

Wireless shifting would be great until your phone rings or you switch on an LED light and the interference causes your chain to drop!

I don't know if you get multiple shifters, but apparently there's certainly more flexibility in terms of where you can position shifters on aero bars - that's the main reason HTC have chucked it on all their TT bikes this year.

Roastie

From what I've read, the biggest benefit of Di2 is the trimming that Rich mentioned, and the fact that it times the shift to hit the shift gates rather than just pushing the chain across randomly and hoping for the best. This *can* sometimes result in slightly slower shifts than manual (tho' 9 times out of 10 Di2 is faster) but crucially it gives 100% reliable shifting under full power - which is pretty cool indeed. Especially when shifting the front rings.

Perhaps irrelevant for us mere mortals, but still pretty darned cool.

il_principe

Rich158 wrote:

I'm in the same boat, if I can get something with electronic shifting when I get a big fat cheque great, until then they can keep it.

How's the shoulder by the way IP, back to normal yet?

Structurally it's strong and healing well thanks. Keeps getting infected though which is annoying and unpleasant! Going to have surgery again in Sept/Oct to whip the metalwork out as the doc reckons it disagrees with me. So sososososososo pleased to be back in the saddle.

Rich158

Il Principe wrote:

Rich158 wrote:

I'm in the same boat, if I can get something with electronic shifting when I get a big fat cheque great, until then they can keep it.

How's the shoulder by the way IP, back to normal yet?

Structurally it's strong and healing well thanks. Keeps getting infected though which is annoying and unpleasant! Going to have surgery again in Sept/Oct to whip the metalwork out as the doc reckons it disagrees with me. So sososososososo pleased to be back in the saddle.

That doesn't sound like fun, and another operation :shock: I just hope you get a mighty payout, well at least a Dogma sized one

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

They're working on electronic, but would you trust Italian electronics...

That is wrongly-true but what if they worked with say Focus. Much like Lambo and Audi.

Then you would have a beautiful looking groupset that is more accurate than an atomic-clock and more efficient than nuclear fission.

If the Caribbean did an Electronic groupset it would be late.... oh let the stereotypes fly.

On topic.

So what about the battery of Di2 and surely with more electronical/moving parts more could go wrong, harder to service?

Also the weight of the battery box surely has to disrupt the bikes handling. Do you think there will be bikes that will house that within the frame - is that even possible without affecting the strength of the frame. Oh I'm rambling...

UndercoverElephant

Il Principe wrote:

Going to have surgery again in Sept/Oct to whip the metalwork out as the doc reckons it disagrees with me.

Titanium? Doesn't agree with you?

I think the sky's starting to crumble...

will3

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also the weight of the battery box surely has to disrupt the bikes handling.

the battery is small. The handling difference would be about the same as having a phone in you jersey pocket

DonDaddyD wrote:

Do you think there will be bikes that will house that within the frame - is that even possible without affecting the strength of the frame. Oh I'm rambling...

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.c ... -9480.html
looks like they're not trying yet, but most frames seem to put it here

DonDaddyD

What is that box thing? The battery or the brain? That is not small.

will3

That;s the battery afaik.
68g

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/shi ... y-ec019072


I'm somewhat dissapointed that you didn't call me a name in the last post. You're slipping.

redddraggon

Di2 is the best groupset.

Shimano were churning out rubbish for years, and then come out with such an excellent bit of kit.

itboffin

Very disappointing, I scanned through all 3 pages and not one gauntlet :roll:

DonDaddyD

itboffin

DonDaddyD wrote:

Anyway what time you leaving your office tonight?, we're practically neighbours :roll:

DonDaddyD

Just after 6pm.

oscarbudgie

DonDaddyD wrote:

So what about the battery of Di2 and surely with more electronical/moving parts more could go wrong, harder to service?

There's the rub - its easy to visualise a day when the only person who can fix your gears is a guy with a laptop and a diagnostics program.....

desweller

As I see it, the main advantage at present is for TTers, as they can place shift buttons on the bars much more easily and use more than one set of shift buttons (I think - I may be wrong).

I can see a future where electronic shifters are made compatible with a wide range of equipment, so your Shimano Sora electronic brifter (should it ever percolate that far down) could be used to drive an Alfine or Nexus hub for example. That would be sweet.

EDIT: I appear to have skipped the second page when reading the thread... :oops:

jonginge

oscarbudgie wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

So what about the battery of Di2 and surely with more electronical/moving parts more could go wrong, harder to service?

There's the rub - its easy to visualise a day when the only person who can fix your gears is a guy with a laptop and a diagnostics program.....

Nah, there's an iphone app for that...

Wooliferkins

Il Principe wrote:

They're working on electronic, but would you trust Italian electronics...



I love the idea of electronic shifting, but I'm not paying that sort of cash to guinea pig something! Lets wait and see what SRAM and Campag come up with first...

If I get a fat insurance payout from my accident in 18 months or so then I *might* consider electronic.

I got the impression at Eurobike the year before last that both Campg and Shimano were hunting the wireless option. They've both been trialling electronic shifting in the peleton for years. Battery life is sorted just the wireless to sort. I guess it's a balance between the power of the transmitter and the number of other systems close by in the peleton.

TommyEss

Rich158 wrote:

Ok the one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Di2 trims itself. On most gear shifts it's beneficial for the deraileur to move slightly too far in order a facilitate the shift and then settle back in position. I've certainly found this to be the case with both DA and Ultegra SL, having to move the lever almost to the point of having a double shift. Di2 has sensors that do this automatically for you, as well as adjusting the trim of the front mech to ensure you never get chain rub. This ensures that the chain is in the optimum position at all times and no more jumping gears due to dodgy shifts or sticky cables. The technology may be an massive advance on the cable system we have at persent, but the ultimate result is just more refined gear changes, but at a huge cost. If the technology starts to trickle down and become cheaper, then so much the better but I doubt that will ever happen.

I've not ridden Di2 yet but I'd love to give it a go.

Well done Rich - was waiting to see this mentioned.

The trimming is probably the best feature - you're right, the shift per se is not significantly faster than a well set-up cable, but the auto-trim is very neat.

pst88 wrote:
I guess one advantage would be that you could have one set of shifters on the aero extensions of a TT bike and ANOTHER set on the base bars allowing you to shift from both positions? I don't know if the groupset supports multiple shifters but it might be cool. Not that I have a TT bike or could ever afford di2.

Wireless shifting would be great until your phone rings or you switch on an LED light and the interference causes your chain to drop!

Yes, you can have multiple shifters - they have the main STIs, and then some little buttons, which most teams have veritably sprinkled all over the TT bikes.

Wiggins' bike had the regular STIs on the base bars, buttons at the end of the aero extensions, and if I remember correctly, they put another set of the buttons on or near the stem/headset area.

These are the little buggers...

And the regular STIs hoods modified now to take a lower profile TT brake lever (when it first came out they had the full on STI integrated brake and gear shift lever here....

AndyManc

Has someone already said 'cable's stretch, motors don't' ...... hmmmmm?

I'll get me coat :roll:

.

TommyEss

Also - comments re. batteries and getting serviced by a guy with a laptop...

I visited the Shimano tent at the World Championships, whilst the junior race was getting a bit boring, and had a play with their test rig.

The shift is really nice - it's a cute little whir - admittedly though you probably wouldn't hear this whilst riding.

The auto-trim was very subtle - and worked very quickly.

The battery isn't really very big - and it's not that heavy really - about the same as a mobile phone maybe? Some manufacturers are even designing frames to take the battery internally - it'll take a while to trickle down to "normal" bikes - but then so will DI2 - most of us here will probably never ride Dura Ace as it is...

As for how long the battery lasts - it's supposed to be about 600 miles when it's cold (when batteries struggle more) and upto 1500 miles in good conditions. The "safe" distance is about every 1000 miles you should charge - well that'd be me charging about 3/4 times a year...

As for recharging - well I don't know about you, but I end up charging my phone every night nowadays - so what's the difference charging your bike?!

As for the "having to get your bike fixed by a guy with a laptop"

Happens with pretty much all cars nowadays - well, at least a diagnostics program. Still need a guy in overalls to do the fiddly bits!!

lost_in_thought

I have to say I don't like the idea of having to recharge my bike, and failures in an electronic system would likely be trickier to remedy than in the current one.

As a result of that, for people like me I don't see the purpose of it. For pros, sure, but they have spare bikes and teams of mechanics etc etc.

But then I bet people had misgivings about derailleurs when they were first introduced, and I think progress is a Good Thing. May, as CiB said, be the first step towards an automatic gearbox for bikes... which would be cool...

AndyManc

I can't see them any harder to maintain than your standard gear system though a basic knowledge of electrical circuits and access to a multi meter would be an advantage.

One thing we don't want is maintenance taken away from your average biker .... though having said that, we may already be at that stage.

.

lost_in_thought

AndyManc wrote:

I can't see them any harder to maintain than your standard gear system though a basic knowledge of electrical circuits and access to a multi meter would be an advantage.

One thing we don't want is maintenance taken away from your average biker .... though having said that, we may already be at that stage.

.

I don't think your average biker has a basic knowledge of electrical circuits, nor access to a multi meter! I may not be an average biker, but I don't even know what a multi meter is...

Mechanical system = most problems are obvious and visible. Electrical system not so much!

I have to say, if this became widespread, which I am not sure that it will, I suspect it will move maintenance away from the cyclist apart from a few.

Why don't I think it will be widespread? Because the mass market won't go for it - additional expense for little gain. But then, saying that, hydraulic brakes on MTBs - did they take off? Or still only used by a few people?

TommyEss

For sure, the pro peloton is the place to see this, that and the bikes of the city wankers with more money than sense who figure cycling's the new golf...

And to that end, it's not really a "Commuting General Forum" topic - yet...

It has been discussed at length over in the pro race section, coupled with the anticipated Shimano Vs. Campag debate, and the odd mention that it's years since Campag won a Tour de France outright, and SRAM have had the last few anyway...

But there ya go...

Personally - I don't see charging my "bike" as a big deal - I have to take my water bottles into the house, why not grab the battery at the same time?! They recokn it's only 1 1/2 hrs to full charge anyway...

As for it spreading down the groupsets - don't see why not - Sora's not always been 9 speed, has it!? In 1995 the pros were still only on 8 speed...!

desweller

You only have to look at modern car ECUs to see how a well refined electronic system can beat a mechanical one, in both performance and reliability.

Electronics are cheaper to make and more reliable than mechanical systems in all but the most hostile environments. Look at how costly STIs are. Look at the number of people complaining of derailleur and shifter woes in the workshop section of this very forum. The current mechanical system is a pain to setup and prone to drifing out of tune.

Get rid of all those fiddly ratchets and springs and high-tension cables and you have a cheaper, stronger setup. Add in the potential of software and you also have more versatility - no more 'can I use my Shimano 9-sp shifter with my new 10-sp cassette'. Just change the software in the system.

il_principe

TommyEss wrote:

For sure, the pro peloton is the place to see this, that and the bikes of the city wankers with more money than sense who figure cycling's the new golf...

I get a bit narked by comments like this - stereotyping people for no good reason. Having a 'flash' bike doesn't necessarily make you a city w@nker (I don't work in the city fwiw ), it might just make you an enthusiast who prefers to save and spend their cash on bikes rather than a car, or holidays etc...

AndyManc

TommyEss wrote:

For sure, the pro peloton is the place to see this, that and the bikes of the city wankers with more money than sense who figure cycling's the new golf...
!

I think we will see it in the high street within a decade on a range of bikes, take a look at how carbon and bike computers have become affordable, they'll be churning out cheap systems in numbers .

A cheap 'throw-away' component, the same way all technology has gone.

.