Someone explain to me the benefits of eletronic shifting
DonDaddyD
Posts: 12,689
Shimano Di2, is it worth the hype?
When I cycle I press my shifter and in less seconds than I can count my chain shifts position. So, what does electronic shifting do that is better?
(I can see in years to come a generation gap between old chaps wanting the traditional shifting system and the young'uns who want everything digital and a digital display showing what gear they're on.... Think Mechanical/Automatic and Digital quartz watch).
When I cycle I press my shifter and in less seconds than I can count my chain shifts position. So, what does electronic shifting do that is better?
(I can see in years to come a generation gap between old chaps wanting the traditional shifting system and the young'uns who want everything digital and a digital display showing what gear they're on.... Think Mechanical/Automatic and Digital quartz watch).
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
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I suppose more reliable/less adjustment and maintenance.
And in the far future, lighter weight, perhaps.0 -
It will give you a psychological difference that will let you go 20 minutes faster on your way to work.
You should get it so that you can scalp gurls.0 -
Doubt anywhere could give answer because if you'd use Di2 for a commuter you've more money than sense.
More precise shifting is one.
Google and read the in-depth reviews there are loads or post the question Road section as there has been a lot of debate. Weight Weenies have some good threads on this subject.0 -
Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.0
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That sounds great, it will cut my commute to 2-3 minutes which is faster than I could go by car and I'll be averaging about 180mph, in that case where do I sign?will3 wrote:It will give you a psychological difference that will let you go 20 minutes faster on your way to work.
SimonCurrently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
It's probably just market segmentation, and the need to produce new products each year.
A few evolutions of this might produce something interesting, but at the moment its surely just a flashy frontend on to what is still a cable being strained or loosened in order to change gears. The rest of the components remain the same.
I suspect the weight point is being made to try and justify it. Wait for version 3 or 40 -
will3 wrote:It will give you a psychological difference that will let you go 20 minutes faster on your way to work.
You should get it so that you can scalp gurls.
Today I stayed behind a truck because I couldn't trust myself to achieve a speed fast enough to overtake the Truck. I couldn't trust myself because my ankle has been a little sore so I decided not to risk it.
Stuck behind the truck I was unfortunately held up in traffic and by traffic lights. I was 15mins later than usual to work.
If I was on top form I would have overtaken the truck, ridden faster and its likely been more prepared to filter, get to the front of the ASL and chase the lights that I know have long wait periods. On the Kharma all hell would have broken loose. Circumstances on my commute dictate the duration of the journey yes, but my ability on the bike dictates my interaction with these circumstances and ultimately that is the deciding factor in how they affect my journey time.
YES on a straight road there is probably seconds maybe mins in difference between the Kharma and my SCR. However, commuting is difference and it is my ability/confidence to overcome the time consuming varibles that I was talking about.
So let it go. You end of a very large bell.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Gazzaputt wrote:Doubt anywhere could give answer because if you'd use Di2 for a commuter you've more money than sense.
More precise shifting is one.
Wasn't talking about commuting I was just talking about the groupset in general.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:will3 wrote:It will give you a psychological difference that will let you go 20 minutes faster on your way to work.
You should get it so that you can scalp gurls.
Today I stayed behind a truck because I couldn't trust myself to achieve a speed fast enough to overtake the Truck. I couldn't trust myself because my ankle has been a little sore so I decided not to risk it.
Stuck behind the truck I was unfortunately held up in traffic and by traffic lights. I was 15mins later than usual to work.
If I was on top form I would have overtaken the truck, ridden faster and its likely been more prepared to filter, get to the front of the ASL and chase the lights that I know have long wait periods. On the Kharma all hell would have broken loose. Circumstances on my commute dictate the duration of the journey yes, but my ability on the bike dictates my interaction with these circumstances and ultimately that is the deciding factor in how they affect my journey time.
YES on a straight road there is probably seconds maybe mins in difference between the Kharma and my SCR. However, commuting is difference and it is my ability/confidence to overcome the time consuming varibles that I was talking about.
So let it go. You end of a very large bell.
Exactly. The electronic stuff would give you more confidence so, as you've pointed out you'll go faster.0 -
It's not about speed. When you change gear now you move the end of the cable at the changer and the other end will move a corresponding distance at pretty much the same time.
Di2 is development - we move on, we do things differently, sometime just to see if it gives a benefit. It was years before the TdF allowed dérailleur gears, but they do now. Progress, or retrograde step? Di2 and all variations might die a death; it might become the norm on top end bikes and then filter down as the default. Who knows?
We can all stand still and decide that everything we have is quite good enough thanks, or we can try new things out and see what happens. I know where I'd rather be.0 -
CiB wrote:It's not about speed. When you change gear now you move the end of the cable at the changer and the other end will move a corresponding distance at pretty much the same time.
Di2 is development - we move on, we do things differently, sometime just to see if it gives a benefit. It was years before the TdF allowed dérailleur gears, but they do now. Progress, or retrograde step? Di2 and all variations might die a death; it might become the norm on top end bikes and then filter down as the default. Who knows?
We can all stand still and decide that everything we have is quite good enough thanks, or we can try new things out and see what happens. I know where I'd rather be.
Nicely put. It is true that Electronic DA might turn out to be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist but like you say "we move on". Not too many people want to drive around in a 1920 Ford. Newer cars work just a bit better. Progress is rarely made in huge leaps and bounds. It's all about improving what you've got.0 -
I'm lost, it's just improvement, or fixing a problem that never existed.
So what does Di2 do differently or better? what problem is it attempting to fix?
Is it just that electronic servo's move the cable instead of mechanical shifter pulling at the cable?Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Sorry, I thought this was a forum to discuss and get the personal opinions of people as well as factual information.
That end of the bell just seems to get larger and larger.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
I know what you mean - how many times have I asked people a question on which I'd like all kinds of feedback, fact and opinion only to be sent here
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DonDaddyD wrote:Sorry, I thought this was a forum to discuss and get the personal opinions of people as well as factual information.
That end of the bell just seems to get larger and larger.
my apologies, I thought you wanted someone to tell you the benefits of electronic shifting, what's that first hit on google? why it's an article explaining the benefits of electronic shifting from Bikeradar.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/s ... ride-18283
Turns out you were actually asking a bunch of people who probably have no expericene of the product what they thought of it. Silly me.0 -
I feel a poll coming on "what percentage of DDD's posts end in acrimony?"
- 2023 Vielo V+1
- 2022 Canyon Aeroad CFR
- 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
- Strava
- On the Strand
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'prick'will3 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Sorry, I thought this was a forum to discuss and get the personal opinions of people as well as factual information.
That end of the bell just seems to get larger and larger.
my apologies, I thought you wanted someone to tell you the benefits of electronic shifting, what's that first hit on google? why it's an article explaining the benefits of electronic shifting from Bikeradar.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/s ... ride-18283
Turns out you were actually asking a bunch of people who probably have no expericene of the product what they thought of it. Silly me.
Will, do youself a favour and move on to another discussion. You obviously don't have anything constructive to add.
I was actually trying to have a sensible discussion, which has been hijacked by you. Yes bikeradar has an article on the subject, I wanted both or either fact and personal opinion mostly from people I talk to here on a regular basis and those whose thoughts I respect, if not always agree with.
You don't know who has and who hasn't tried Dura Ace Di2. You don't know who owns it and who doesn't. That is just an assumption on your part, an arrogant one.
In the end there is nothing wrong with asking a question and a person shouldn't be made to feel afraid to ask a question
Last time I checked this was a discussion forum.
That end of the bell is just obscene now.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
I personally believe that Di2 is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and will vanish until one of the magazines in 2020 does a feature on 'bike tech that didn't catch on'.
as was said....no matter whether it stays or goes, we will move on. it will be interesting to spectate the development of electronically assised bicycle technology.Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
It's an improvement, like the 6 speed box on my road car is better than the 4 speeder on the Land Rover*, like synchromesh is better than a crash box in most cases. Just scan reading that article throws up a few benefits - auto trimming, the ability to place the shifters anywhere, servos not springs so more precise control, the lack of cables running from one end of the bike to the other. There's a few benefits to start with.DonDaddyD wrote:I'm lost, it's just improvement, or fixing a problem that never existed.
So what does Di2 do differently or better? what problem is it attempting to fix?
Is it just that electronic servo's move the cable instead of mechanical shifter pulling at the cable?
Who knows where it could go - internal gears that never need looking after as they're protected from road gunge, infinitely variable ratios, matching of ratio to cadence... The possibilities of offering this sort of thing opens up once we make the move from fixed mechanicals to electrical control. Just because the benefit isn't immediately obvious doesn't mean we shouldn't go there to have a look.
*It was a 2 wheel drive version without the High / Low range option, before anyone claims it had 8.
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CiB wrote:
It's an improvement, like the 6 speed box on my road car is better than the 4 speeder on the Land Rover*, like synchromesh is better than a crash box in most cases. Just scan reading that article throws up a few benefits - auto trimming, the ability to place the shifters anywhere, servos not springs so more precise control, the lack of cables running from one end of the bike to the other. There's a few benefits to start with.DonDaddyD wrote:I'm lost, it's just improvement, or fixing a problem that never existed.
So what does Di2 do differently or better? what problem is it attempting to fix?
Is it just that electronic servo's move the cable instead of mechanical shifter pulling at the cable?
Who knows where it could go - internal gears that never need looking after as they're protected from road gunge, infinitely variable ratios, matching of ratio to cadence... The possibilities of offering this sort of thing opens up once we make the move from fixed mechanicals to electrical control. Just because the benefit isn't immediately obvious doesn't mean we shouldn't go there to have a look.
*It was a 2 wheel drive version without the High / Low range option, before anyone claims it had 8.
Nods head in acceptance of wise sage like wisdom....Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
The dream will be to get it wireless so you get button shifting similar to F1 and high end cars. No cables no wires. My impression is Shimano couldn't get wireless shifting perfect so whizzed out a wired version to go against 11 speed. Perfect transmission of wigglies to behind the pedals is a problem as problems with wireless cadence sensors often proves. I'm not sure if it's the interference problems that Mavics Zapp system suffered with. it's designed for top end racing machines and OTT for mere mortals.Neil
Help I'm Being Oppressed0 -
will3 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Sorry, I thought this was a forum to discuss and get the personal opinions of people as well as factual information.
That end of the bell just seems to get larger and larger.
my apologies, I thought you wanted someone to tell you the benefits of electronic shifting, what's that first hit on google? why it's an article explaining the benefits of electronic shifting from Bikeradar.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/s ... ride-18283
Turns out you were actually asking a bunch of people who probably have no expericene of the product what they thought of it. Silly me.
Get a life FFS! :roll:0 -
Ok the one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Di2 trims itself. On most gear shifts it's beneficial for the deraileur to move slightly too far in order a facilitate the shift and then settle back in position. I've certainly found this to be the case with both DA and Ultegra SL, having to move the lever almost to the point of having a double shift. Di2 has sensors that do this automatically for you, as well as adjusting the trim of the front mech to ensure you never get chain rub. This ensures that the chain is in the optimum position at all times and no more jumping gears due to dodgy shifts or sticky cables. The technology may be an massive advance on the cable system we have at persent, but the ultimate result is just more refined gear changes, but at a huge cost. If the technology starts to trickle down and become cheaper, then so much the better but I doubt that will ever happen.
I've not ridden Di2 yet but I'd love to give it a go.pain is temporary, the glory of beating your mates to the top of the hill lasts forever.....................
Revised FCN - 20 -
I guess one advantage would be that you could have one set of shifters on the aero extensions of a TT bike and ANOTHER set on the base bars allowing you to shift from both positions? I don't know if the groupset supports multiple shifters but it might be cool. Not that I have a TT bike or could ever afford di2.
Wireless shifting would be great until your phone rings or you switch on an LED light and the interference causes your chain to drop!Bianchi Via Nirone Veloce/Centaur 20100 -
Rich158 wrote:If the technology starts to trickle down and become cheaper, then so much the better but I doubt that will ever happen.
Interesting you say that, I remember when PS2 (Playstation 2 Greg :roll: ) was originally released and a girl said that it wouldn'e reduce in price that much, ever, because it had a DVD player with it. She couldn't comprehend it being sold at less than £200-£300 because it was so advanced (for the time) and DVD's and the players were so new/expensive.
A year later it dropped in price by £100.
Di2 and the way the bike market is going I can't see the same happening. I can see an Ultegra Di2 but this would likely be used to ramp the price of the groupsets up.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
<polite cough...>Rich158 wrote:Ok the one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Di2 trims itself. <snip>
I've not ridden Di2 yet but I'd love to give it a go.
I agree though - I'd love to give it a blast and see what it offers. I can't imagine Shimano doing a whole pile of R&D that ends up with a bit of tat that they insist on releasing to public disdain. More likely that it's rather good, with further possibilities.CiB wrote:...Just scan reading that article throws up a few benefits - auto trimming, the ability to place the shifters anywhere, servos not springs so more precise control, the lack of cables running from one end of the bike to the other. There's a few benefits to start with.
Here's to F1 style hyper speed gear shifts done in an elctro-mechanical black box, instead of using a spring loaded parallelogram to derail a chain and hope that it lands on the next cog properly without eating the spokes.0 -
Rich158 wrote:Ok the one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that Di2 trims itself. On most gear shifts it's beneficial for the deraileur to move slightly too far in order a facilitate the shift and then settle back in position. I've certainly found this to be the case with both DA and Ultegra SL, having to move the lever almost to the point of having a double shift. Di2 has sensors that do this automatically for you, as well as adjusting the trim of the front mech to ensure you never get chain rub. This ensures that the chain is in the optimum position at all times and no more jumping gears due to dodgy shifts or sticky cables. The technology may be an massive advance on the cable system we have at persent, but the ultimate result is just more refined gear changes, but at a huge cost. If the technology starts to trickle down and become cheaper, then so much the better but I doubt that will ever happen.
I've not ridden Di2 yet but I'd love to give it a go.
Meh, just buy Campag.
- 2023 Vielo V+1
- 2022 Canyon Aeroad CFR
- 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
- Strava
- On the Strand
- Crown Stables
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Auto-trimming is cool and suggests to my small knowledge less maintenance needed to set the gears up right every 6months or so (or less)Il Principe wrote:
Meh, just buy Campag.
Good point, what's Campag's next step?Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Auto-trimming is cool and suggests to my small knowledge less maintenance needed to set the gears up right every 6months or so (or less)Il Principe wrote:
Meh, just buy Campag.
Good point, what's Campag's next step?
It'll be electronic shifting, but they'll claim it's better and more stylish than the big S
On the other hand it may just be 12 speed, you can never have enough gears, it keeps the chav's happy when they ask how many gears your bikes gotpain is temporary, the glory of beating your mates to the top of the hill lasts forever.....................
Revised FCN - 20
