How would you change the structure of racing in the UK?

nolf

Following on from the slightly diverted Unionjack sknisuit thread.

Well?

The current system isn't perfect, what would you guys do to improve it?

Maybe bikeradar could get on board with this, I'd be interested to see some experienced people and see what they consider to be the good bits and bad bits. An investigative article on what could be changed (realistically) would be very interesting.

It'd be a courageous article, but I bet a heck of a lot of people would read it.

This thread tho- if you were going to full on overhauil the whole system- what would you do?

Personally I'd unite BC and CTT in a new organisation, and make an effort to get costs as low as possible, whilst empowering local clubs more to do as they see fit, within a loose regulatory framework.

Theres got to be a few opinions on this...

gazrichards

I agree that bc and ctt as 1 organisation would be better.
maybe just promote TTs via BC and leave the ctt as they are (a backward, miserable bunch of beardy fast time chasers!) points to be awarded for TTs too (in a similar vain to RRs) to get us away from dual carriageway, time chasing and reward the top positions.

Chip \'oyler

gazrichards wrote:

I agree that bc and ctt as 1 organisation would be better.
maybe just promote TTs via BC and leave the ctt as they are (a backward, miserable bunch of beardy fast time chasers!) points to be awarded for TTs too (in a similar vain to RRs) to get us away from dual carriageway, time chasing and reward the top positions.

My thoughts exactly. Although your description of the CTT is a bit of a sweeping generalisation

John.T

gazrichards wrote:

I agree that bc and ctt as 1 organisation would be better.
maybe just promote TTs via BC and leave the ctt as they are (a backward, miserable bunch of beardy fast time chasers!) points to be awarded for TTs too (in a similar vain to RRs) to get us away from dual carriageway, time chasing and reward the top positions.

And watch cost and bureacracy soar for TTs. It would never go the other way. No need to ride on DCs either. Plenty of good events on normal roads. All my favorite TT events are SPOCOs (sporting course events).
BC need to sort the cost and complexity of their licence system. Since returning to racing this has put me off bothering with them. Thank goodness there are LVRC and TLI.
As for the CTT description, I will admit to the beard but nothing else.

SBezza

John.T wrote:

gazrichards wrote:

I agree that bc and ctt as 1 organisation would be better.
maybe just promote TTs via BC and leave the ctt as they are (a backward, miserable bunch of beardy fast time chasers!) points to be awarded for TTs too (in a similar vain to RRs) to get us away from dual carriageway, time chasing and reward the top positions.

And watch cost and bureacracy soar for TTs. It would never go the other way. No need to ride on DCs either. Plenty of good events on normal roads. All my favorite TT events are SPOCOs (sporting course events).
BC need to sort the cost and complexity of their licence system. Since returning to racing this has put me off bothering with them. Thank goodness there are LVRC and TLI.
As for the CTT description, I will admit to the beard but nothing else.

+1

Sod paying BC entry fees, I will stick with the CTT entry fees.

sub55

gazrichards wrote:

I agree that bc and ctt as 1 organisation would be better.
maybe just promote TTs via BC and leave the ctt as they are (a backward, miserable bunch of beardy fast time chasers!) points to be awarded for TTs too (in a similar vain to RRs) to get us away from dual carriageway, time chasing and reward the top positions.

:evil: :evil:
god help us

gazrichards

why would BC involvment mean increased fees?

sub55

RR= membership + licence+ £20 entire

TT = £7.50

gazrichards

the licence and BC membership (which includes insurance for when you get spanked by a car!) is £68 for a year (silver membership)
road races cost between £12 and £16 usually. crits usually less (£9/10 or as little as a fiver sometimes)

the trouble is that for most folk TTing isnt racing, its a mission to get a pb meaning travelling the length of the land to find a down hill course.
make it category based like a road race and everyone races for a position. No more stupid standard distances (which are a product of TTings historic backwardness from the halcion days when racing on the public highway was banned), no more chasing times, no more 5 am starts and no more "horray, I knocked 2 seconds of my personal best but I came 110th out of 120!"

most road racers think testers are weird and most testers are just in it for the cakes!

SBezza

TTing is racing and most TTers I know see it that way, you don't need to chase PB's, although that is what alot of us do. I also race for position, because my local courses I know I am unlikely to do a PB on, but I will travel occasionally to attempt one.

You can race for points if you want to plenty of series that only award points (still be the top people winning though), or you can race for a prize, be it cash or trophies/medals. If you don't like standard distance events, enter non standard distances events instead.

Thing is BC are happy to see their Premier events go down the pan, and not matter how much money they have got from the tax payer, they will not help organisors. I wouldn't want TTing to go the same way.

CTT set the rules and it is the local clubs that run them (very successfully), CTT get a fixed fee from each entry, which is probably less then a BC levy.

CX races tend to be £12 for BC members and £15 for non members, luckily these are every few weeks, if I was doing 2 TT's in a weekend and have to pay £24+ for the privilege, I would be a bit peeved, especially if they were over each within 30 mins.

John.T

the licence and BC membership (which includes insurance for when you get spanked by a car!) is £68 for a year (silver membership)

I doubt it does. It will give you third party indemnity for if you clout the car. You have just the same in a CTT event which has just cost you your club membership and about £7.
LVRC and TLI give you the same for about £16 membership / licence (it is not an extra) and £6 to £10 entry fee. BC seems to me to be a rip off.

nolf

Presumably you guys are happy with everything the way it is then?

I want to get some genuine ideas here!
As people have mentioned in other threads, if you can't come up with a solutiion, don't criticise those who try.

How could you make that system work?

I'm not talking about subjecting ctt to BC but creating a new organisation, whose focus was cotting cost as much as possible.

Any views?

How could you make a new organisation work????

John.T

I have no problem with CTT. Some of the rules are a bit ancient but they are there for a reason most of which only become obvious when you have been around for some time. Some could do with updating but the answer is easy. Get yourself on a district committee, get the changes past them and then the national one. If enough of you cared then you would soon outnumber the old stagers most of whom are just looking for new blood to take over. But it is not coming so they stay.
As for BC. If they charged me £30 for membership, licence and insurance and improved their take on vets racing then I would join them. The catagory system is complicated but it always will be as there are too many factors to deal with. Their attitude to vets racing stinks. You are on the scrap heap at 40 unless you can keep up with the youngsters.
Don't forget that both organisations have national govening body status which means they are recognised by Parliament as such thus they must have a national framework for everything done in their name. For instance all open TTs must state on the forms that the event is run on behalf of CTT by whatever club is running it and it is under CTT rules. You can not just kick this out without a major overhaul and I do mean major. It all has legal implications.
I do agree that all the national cycling organisations should get together more and agree on common strategies for dealing with the probems of staging races, policing etc, but BC seem to be moving away from supporting grass roots events and can not even make sure the big ones take place. If anyone needs to get their act together it is the costliest lot.

barrybridges

I think that cycling is in a very sorry state of affairs and I've got plenty of suggestions - some good, some bad (no doubt!).

My perspective on this is as a younger rider (well, 27 is hardly young?) and as someone who joined cycling via TTs as a 'juvenile'. I rode through the junior ranks to senior level but then dropped out of the sport before rejoining last year.

Focus on young people

By far the biggest issue for me is in the image of the sport. More needs to be done to attract young people to racing, which for me should mean a complete relaxation of all the rules (as discussed previously). You can wear what you want, ride what you want. None of this rubbish about sponsors logos etc.

For clubs, I would encourage them to forge relationships with local schools as this doesn't seem to happen at present. Maybe create mini-leagues for young riders, too? I went through school and there was never a cycling club - and no-one from the local club ever contacted the local schools to advertise the sport at all.

Forms and paperwork

I think there's too much bureaucracy at present, which creates a barrier to entry. The BCF website is a really ill-thought out mess that isn't clear. Gold, silver, bronze memberships? Why not just ONE membership?

If you want to RR, then Surrey League is a great example of where a good organisation is let down by rules. Newcomers are advised to a) join a club (fee = £20 per year?), then join the league (fee = £30 per year?) and then they either need BC membership on a day or annual basis (fee = £40 per year?) and then they need to pay entry for their first race (fee = £10 per year). So, you could be asked to pay £100 before you even get to the start line.

Why not just one fee to enter the race. Why do you have to be a member of a club? Why do you need to be a member of BC? Can't individiual organisations carry the insurance required?

Geography and time

There's not much that can be done about this, but even in the South East it's difficult to find an appropriate race to enter the sport. Let's say I'm a newcomer - 4th cat - for example. Well, there are only a handful of 'go ride' events (and they take place very early in the year) and from there only a handful of 4th Cat events each month.

What's more, RR circuits are spaced quite a distance apart (esp if 4th Cat) - and most young people rely on mum or dad to get from race to race. I'm based near Bromley - what races are near me? Crystal Palace, Goodwood, Sandwich, Dunsfold...all a long way away.

Most TTs take place at ungodly hours of the day...which aren't conducive to participation.

Structure

All of this forgets the split between CTT and BC - so if you want to race both, there's twice the level of paperwork. Why not one organisation? What other sports require you to be a member of different organisations to participate in different disciplines of the sport? There isn't an association for breaststroke, front crawl and backstroke?

Also - and this is a controversial suggestion - why is there such devolution in terms of organising events? In running, for example, you often have several promoters responsible for several events each season - and these are endorsed/supported by the governing body. Witness the 'Human Race' events to see how it works well. If the onus was on CTT to organise a few TT themselves the mindset could be changed from 'we're all volunteers' to 'we run these events professionally'. I fail to see how these events could be run at a loss - unless few people register? Why not make it a business rather than a voluntary organisation - and then place an onus on that organisation to run more events?

Rant over. In summary:

One organisation for RR and TT
Reduce the number of different memberships needed. One fee to enter a race.
More beginners events - throughout the year
Clubs to be forced to reach out to schools and encourage younger participation
Later start times for events
Create a more 'business-like' focus to running events - rather than devolve everything to club level, CTT/BC to run events themselves too.

Tom Butcher

I'm not in favour of a single organisation. For a start I think BC are too pro compulsory helmet use and BC TTs would undoubtedly require helmets - I realise that others think that is a good thing.

On the whole though I just think having multiple organisations for different types of event - including TLI and LVRC for road racing - gives people a bit more choice. If you don't like BC events then race/organise under a different banner. It just allows a bit more space for dissenting voices.

As for devolution organising races - well if you've ever organised one you'll realise that the only way to run a road race to budget is rely on volunteers. This is why the club system is so important - without clubs to provide the marshalls, catering etc there would be very few road races or TTs. There is no way that a central organisation could run races without heavy subsidy. Running events are totally different - you can easily get 500 plus runners in one race - road races are 80 maximum so the entry fees don't go as far. Even then many running races rely on volunteers and clubs and it's relatively few that are organised by paid staff.

alan_sherman

I see a commercial organisation taking over the running of events.

Why?
Well most new people into cycling seem to think that a club membership is like a gym membership - they expect to be given everything but don't 'give back' to the sport in terms of marshalling, organising an event etc.

As a result the infrastrucure of cycling is dying. Clubs have histoically put on races and time trials, however the commisaires, organisers and time keepers are getting old, retireing or just stopping because they put their own time into organising an event for some idiot to take part and swear at the locals when the cyclist doesn't give way at a junction and then shout and scream at the organiser!

Also with the rise of triathlons and sportives where there is a commercial company organising the participants are getting used to levels of service that volunteers struggel to do.
Inevitably costs will rise - but maybe there will be fewer events, with bigger fields. I suspect a move to closed circuits more and more too as getting permission to race on the road is harder and teh organiser has more control on a closed circuit.

John.T

The govenment put the mockers on any involvement with children. My old club used to do a lot of work with them but no-one was prepared to go through all the checks that were brought in for working with kids so it all just died. Even having under 16s on a club run is a grey area unless a parent is there.
'Ride what you want and wear what you want'. You can do this in club events and semi open ones. By the time a novice is ready for open events he will have a decent bike and suitable clothing. As TT is a club orientated sport why should he not ride in his clubs colours. Better than Astana for instance. Regarding the use of sponsors logos, clubs receive money or help from these sponsors. Why should the CTT not also get some benefit from this also. They provide the framework that the sport runs on and the cash has to come from somewhere. Increased levy anyone.

TTs are at the times they are because of safety considerations due to traffic density.
Have you tried to get insurance for an event. The cost is prohibitive. Providing cheap insurance is one of the main reasons for running events under one of the main bodies.

Running more events and doing it 'professionaly' sounds good in theory but who is going to pay for all these professionals. Events make very little profit when run by free volunteers. There are only so many people who want to promote races and only so many available suitable courses.

I agree BC is a bit of a shambles from the average riders perspective but that is the 'professional' organisation with all the money.

Infamous

sub55 wrote:

RR= membership + licence+ £20 entire

TT = £7.50

I love how people don't mind spending thousands of pounds on a bike just to be competitive and then complain about the £10 entry fee. Perhaps it's a good thing to put more money into the sport.

I would like to see a points system within the CTT, no need to combine it with BC though.

alan_sherman

Addendum:

Thoughts on the cost structure might help us understand the likely costs of a commercially organised event:

Publicity
Insurance
Circuit hire / ownership
Commissaire (£30 per hour?)
marshals / sign on persons (approx 8? at £10 per hour)
Lead car / support car petrol / running costs
BC levies as British Cycling are the governing body for cycle sport in the UK..?
Online entry website costs (hosting, payment fees, bandwidth costs)
Photo finish / chip timing and accurate results
Prize fund or certificates / medals (does anyone really care about the money these days?)
Suporting cafe
Changing room / toilet hire costs (if not in curcuit)

What else have I missed

As a competitor I'd like to see better commissairing - warnings for people riding dangerously, proper policing of people cheating (yes the 4th cat idiots that jump into the passing E,1,2,3 races), clearer results, online entry up to the event and on the day (including time trials).

Actually Eastway used to be really good at all the above - a shame it has gone

gazrichards

good points made above by all I think
the reason I suggested combining the 2 bodies of ctt and bc (in my earlier post) is because that is what the uci (which is afte rall the world governing body for cycle sport) has done. There is not a body for RR and one for TT etc etc so we may as well go with uci format and be done with it.
now I know the uci is perhaps not perfect but they are the boss and the guidelines are there.

with regards to focusing on young people I think we need to bring racing to the masses. If we had more town centre crits, nocturnes or even fete races you are showing a huge audience what cycle racing is about. it could lead to closed roads for amateur racing, improved driver attitudes and more.

nearly every village or certainly town has some sort of fete/fair/festival etc and many have some sort of road closure in place. why is it not possible to put on a few races whilst this is going on. It is done in certain areas (oakley village in bucks do something similar every year)

magicrhodes

As an ex-MTB racer I'd ahve to say that the organising body of MTB racing needs to change. One of the big problems was that because people refused to join an organisation to log racers people could race at any level they wanted so the sport field was filled with Experts who wanted to win easy, the experts was filled with people who should have moved up. Fun was ruined by providing winners medals to the winners instead of a lottery type as it encouraged good sports rider to drop down as everyone else had.

On a general note having been to the Belvoir Triathlon, where the entry fee was far higher, I was amazed at the organisation which included timing mats etc

gazrichards

oh and also, lets be honest, if you are racing 2/3/4 cat races or local TTs do you really care about the prize?
why bother with a cash prize. a voucher donated from the local bike shop would be better or a trophy/winners jersey

I am a profesional athlete (but not in cycling) and have competed and won many events over the years. I have a loft full of trophies and medals that mean half as much as the fact that I won! I dont even have them in the house on show.

a £10 prize is a waste of time and almost a bit embarassing and demeaning to "win" when it cost £20 to race

barrybridges

Infamous wrote:

sub55 wrote:

RR= membership + licence+ £20 entire

TT = £7.50

I love how people don't mind spending thousands of pounds on a bike just to be competitive and then complain about the £10 entry fee. Perhaps it's a good thing to put more money into the sport.

I would like to see a points system within the CTT, no need to combine it with BC though.

Have you considered that maybe young people DO MIND spending thousands on a bike...money they may not have.

I remember one of my early junior TTs where I rode my Trek 470 (which was all I could afford) and somehow ended up as the minute-man for a well-known SE tester. Rather than be polite and supporting me, he was just really rude and kept asking why I'd 'left my best bike at home'.

barrybridges

alan sherman wrote:

Addendum:

Thoughts on the cost structure might help us understand the likely costs of a commercially organised event:

Publicity
Insurance
Circuit hire / ownership
Commissaire (£30 per hour?)
marshals / sign on persons (approx 8? at £10 per hour)
Lead car / support car petrol / running costs
BC levies as British Cycling are the governing body for cycle sport in the UK..?
Online entry website costs (hosting, payment fees, bandwidth costs)
Photo finish / chip timing and accurate results
Prize fund or certificates / medals (does anyone really care about the money these days?)
Suporting cafe
Changing room / toilet hire costs (if not in curcuit)
(

Publicity - minimal. An entry in Cycling Weekly and a listing in the handbook.
Insurance - the main cost. But how much IS insurance? Does anyone know?
Commissaire (£30pph) - why is there a paid commissaire if others are volunteers?
BC Levies - surely these are quid pro quo? E.g. they are paid in return for insurance? Otherwise, why do they need to be paid?
Online entry website costs - minimal. All can be executed for less than £30 total.
Photo finish/chip timing - none of the events I've ridden have chip timing. Photo finish usually is a guy at the finish line with a camera!
Prizes = who needs prizes (as someone else says)
Supporting cafe = again, surely these are barter deals (increased trade?)
Changing room - are these needed?

barrybridges

John.T wrote:

The govenment put the mockers on any involvement with children. My old club used to do a lot of work with them but no-one was prepared to go through all the checks that were brought in for working with kids so it all just died. Even having under 16s on a club run is a grey area unless a parent is there.

I'm sorry, but I don't accept that. The company I work for sits on the Home Office Child Protection group and I have lots of experience in issues relating to young people - and this argument is used time and time again.

You're not 'working with children' in as much as I'm working with children if I played football with my next door neighbour's kid. There is no need for the paranoia that surrounds this. In any event, perhaps only one or two people need to work with children (perhaps the paramedic) and an enhanced CRB check costs £60 quid - and that will cover them across ALL events.

You're not coaching children, you're inviting them to race. If they require supervision, that's where the relationship between club and school works well (schools have CRB-checked supervisors).

The issue of having an under 16 on a club run is nonsense! How many parents have sued cycling clubs because a member of the club assisted them having had an accident on a clubrun? None that I've heard of...

There is a fine line between myth and reality but it's easy to back out of encouraging children to cycle because of 'elf and safety'. It's not there. Other sports seem to do ok...

Tom Butcher

I think it's a bit of both - if you want to lay on training and coaching for kids there are a number of hoops you need to jump through. In my experience the funding etc is there and BC do help quite a lot in this but you do need the people willing to put their time in - realistically you need a couple of people willing to give up a couple of weekends each to go on coaching courses plus they need to do (I think) 10 hours practical and keep a coaching log to get the coaching qualification - that's assuming they can go straight to level 2 which I think requires some experience. Then you need a child protection officer. Not sure what else if anything.

nolf

barrybridges wrote:

alan sherman wrote:

Addendum:

Thoughts on the cost structure might help us understand the likely costs of a commercially organised event:

Publicity
Insurance
Circuit hire / ownership
Commissaire (£30 per hour?)
marshals / sign on persons (approx 8? at £10 per hour)
Lead car / support car petrol / running costs
BC levies as British Cycling are the governing body for cycle sport in the UK..?
Online entry website costs (hosting, payment fees, bandwidth costs)
Photo finish / chip timing and accurate results
Prize fund or certificates / medals (does anyone really care about the money these days?)
Suporting cafe
Changing room / toilet hire costs (if not in curcuit)
(

Publicity - minimal. An entry in Cycling Weekly and a listing in the handbook.
Insurance - the main cost. But how much IS insurance? Does anyone know?
Commissaire (£30pph) - why is there a paid commissaire if others are volunteers?
BC Levies - surely these are quid pro quo? E.g. they are paid in return for insurance? Otherwise, why do they need to be paid?
Online entry website costs - minimal. All can be executed for less than £30 total.
Photo finish/chip timing - none of the events I've ridden have chip timing. Photo finish usually is a guy at the finish line with a camera!
Prizes = who needs prizes (as someone else says)
Supporting cafe = again, surely these are barter deals (increased trade?)
Changing room - are these needed?

When I tried to organise a road races for universities of the North, on the nationals circuit in Yorkshire, I was given a quote from an insurance company for around £350-£400 for the event as a whole (3rd party cover). With a maximum of 80 participants, so long as the BC criteria for marshalling and support was met. I was told that an insurer would be required, despite the event being run under the umbrella of BC.

We projected 60-70 entrants, which at £15 a head (paid for by each universities AU), would have given us plenty of money. With around £500-£700 left after insurance costs were covered. That would fairly easily cover marshalls, lead car and getting permission to cause delays on the roads.

Pretty much everything I did independantly, including finding an insurance company that would insure us. BC were singularly unhelpful in prividing a race handbook, or offering any advice whatsoever. Why aren't they actively encouraging people to set up races and making it as easy as possible?

The point about BC levies is an excellent one.
Why do individual events need to get their own insurance backing, when to race you have to be insured by the governing body?
Take away the dispraportionate insurance costs and you've got a heck of a lot of money to pay for everything, even if race fees were £10. And you could pay the volunteers.

That seems to me 1 way a central professional organisation should help. Clubs sort everything out, and getting a central body to liase with police and insurers. They would be experts in it (due to the sheer quantity they deal with) and it makes clubs a lot more willing when they just need to sort out little things!

So in summary-
BC insurance should cover events in general, saving organisers money.

Central organisation should try and simplify as much as possible for organisers.
Become profficient through constant work on them, speed up and professionalise legally required criteria, through the central agency.

Easier to set up races. Encourage people to get them started and make it easier for first time organisers.

Pross

Do people really think that going commercial will improve things? If you went down that route then the company would be looking to make a profit. They would also need to pay marshalls etc. (who would volunteer a few hours to help a company make money?). These things may be possible if you had huge fields on closed circuits but when restricted to 80 riders on the open road it just wouldn't add up unless entry fees were increased.

I haven't organised a race for about 15 years but when I did entries were about £7. We were lucky in that we usually managed to fill both races (120 riders in total). By time we'd paid to hire a venue as HQ, covered the costs of the commissaires / lead cars fuel and expenses, paid for some motorcycle marshalls and other associated costs we would end up with about £100 for the club's funds, most of which came from sales of cakes and tea after the race. The results were similar for TTs.

Is cycling really in that much trouble that we need to take radical measures? My own club has the majority of it's membership in the 12-16 category I think and we regularly have 20 riders of that age doing cyclo cross races. It's easy to find problems in any organisation - how many marathons or half marathons are there to take part in on the average weekend in this country? - and cycling is far from perfect but it has been hugely successful in recent years. OK there may be too much bureaucracy, BC membership can be a bit pricey and there are too many organisations trying to maintain their power but on the whole they do a good job. Without the work they have done over the years we probably wouldn't be legally able to race on the roads of this country.

nolf

Pross wrote:

Do people really think that going commercial will improve things? If you went down that route then the company would be looking to make a profit.

Is cycling really in that much trouble that we need to take radical measures?

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest commercialising events, I don't think that would necessarily help at all!

I was saying that savings made through different measures could be passed directly on to entry fees, running the event to break even.

If £15 entry leaves loads spare, then either leave it for the clubs, but better yet encourage cheaper entry fees, try and get £10 or less the norm (I'm a student and so having to fork out £300+ a year on entry fees is crippling!).

Sure cycling isn't crashing and burning, but it could be so much better!!!!

Pross

I know but someone else suggested it as the way forward. I don't know how the figures break down these days but it certainly used to be the case that there wasn't a lot left over. Unfortunately the TLI aren't active in my area and I'm not quite ready for the LVRC but there are still plenty of BC races on the open road around here possibly as the National Escort Group have been given full accreditation from South Wales police to give the same marshalling powers as the police do.

barrybridges

It seems a few people have seized on the elephant in the room.

WHAT does the money that organisers pay to BC go towards? As in, why is it paid? What does the organiser get in return?