Body Weight Training
Elushion
Posts: 115
Is doing body weight exercises (Ie. Exercise's that can be done at home with no special equipment) any help for cycling? If so what are these exercises?
"It was eleven more than necessary."
-Jacques Anquetil (after winning a race by twelve
seconds."
-Jacques Anquetil (after winning a race by twelve
seconds."
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Are you talking about stretching etc. or barbells and dumbbells? In either case it's all good stuff. Anything that makes you stronger is GOOD.0
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dennisn wrote:Are you talking about stretching etc. or barbells and dumbbells? In either case it's all good stuff. Anything that makes you stronger is GOOD.
Not entirely correct.
You can go to the gym and put on loads of muscle, squat 600 pounds, etc - but it won't make you a better cyclist. In fact, it can make you a WORSE cyclist. You can add lots of muscle which will make you a heavier rider and pure lifting strength does not translate into aerobic fitness - which (I believe) is ore important for cycling than pure strength.
But hey - the magazines will tell you that gym work is important. But only if you're a jellyfish with no muscle anywhere
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You'd have to be doing 2-3 days of weights at really high % of your maximum to bulk up to the point where the gains in power start working against you.
Also, you're not looking for gains in aerobic fitness anyway but gains in power - more force on the pedals.
If you're at all worried about bulking up then just stick to core stability stuff, i.e. lower back and abdomen. That will have an almost immediate effect on how well you can apply power through to the pedals, particularly in seated climbing, and also reduce the risk of a bad back. Plus you'll suck your gut in meaning you can get more aero.
Easiest ones with no equipment are:-
-Sit ups - just do shallow ones, you don't need to get far off the floor
-Leg raises, just lie on your back and raise yur feet 6 inches off the floor, thn hold for a few seconds
-'The Plank' - face down, sort of like a press up, but on your elbows, keep your entire body in a straight line and see how long you can hold it for. When it stats to hurt, focus on your stomach not your back to give you better posture.
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Power <> force (<> means does not equal).G-Wiz wrote:You'd have to be doing 2-3 days of weights at really high % of your maximum to bulk up to the point where the gains in power start working against you.
Also, you're not looking for gains in aerobic fitness anyway but gains in power - more force on the pedals.
One can apply an awful lot of force without doing any work (e.g. push hard against a brick wall), and since power is the rate of doing work, then it should be pretty clear that force and power are not the same thing.
Power (watts) = force (Newtons) x speed (m/s) otherwise known as the rate of doing work, i.e. joules/second.
However it would be fallacious to think that the force part of that equation is what limits our cycling ability. Most people are already capable of generating maximal pedal forces nearly an order of magnitude higher than we exert on the pedals when riding. Increasing our maximal force generation ability does not lead to more sustainable power.
It might lead to an increase in very short duration sprint power (<5 seconds) but that depends on a few things as well.
We are however very much aerobically limited in the power we can sustainably produce, i.e. the (very) sub-maximal forces we can repeatedly perform over longer durations.
Aerobic fitness IS one's sustainable power (best expressed as watts per kg of body mass).
There is very little science or evidence to back up this assertion. But that's old ground, covered here before.G-Wiz wrote:If you're at all worried about bulking up then just stick to core stability stuff, i.e. lower back and abdomen. That will have an almost immediate effect on how well you can apply power through to the pedals, particularly in seated climbing, and also reduce the risk of a bad back. Plus you'll suck your gut in meaning you can get more aero.0 -
Same old, same old from Alexsimmons.
Just because he doesn't do it he'll knock it (ie off bike core stability work).
There's very little scientific evidence for many of his assertions.
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My goodness, where have you been? Back to rewrite history again?jacster wrote:Same old, same old from Alexsimmons.
Just because he doesn't do it he'll knock it (ie off bike core stability work).
There's very little scientific evidence for many of his assertions.
As you no doubt have chosen to forget what I have already posted on the topic before, I have done such work.
Actually there is plenty of scientific evidence for most of my assertions. That's why I assert them.
You however have made claims that have no basis in science, only in belief, and the only evidence presented in support actually showed the opposite.0 -
One of alexsimmons' pearls - you have enough core strength to ride a bike powerfully if you can stand up for longer than you need to bike.
He's never produced any scientific evidence for this..yet he stands behind a wall of 'scientific evidence' as he continually knocks down the posts of other forum users.
For some reason he finds it impossible to contain himself when he spots what he believes to be an 'error'.
Rather than simply answering the OP's questions he delights in trying to be a fountain of knowledge...much of which is based on nothing. 0 -
Do squats I know Chris Hoy does and he aint too bad (although he uses weights)0
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jacster wrote:One of alexsimmons' pearls - you have enough core strength to ride a bike powerfully if you can stand up for longer than you need to bike.
He's never produced any scientific evidence for this..yet he stands behind a wall of 'scientific evidence' as he continually knocks down the posts of other forum users.
For some reason he finds it impossible to contain himself when he spots what he believes to be an 'error'.
Rather than simply answering the OP's questions he delights in trying to be a fountain of knowledge...much of which is based on nothing.
Alex Simmons provides a LOT of useful information on here. If you disagree with him then why not put across your view instead of the personal attacks?More problems but still living....0 -
As a sprint cyclist, that's to be expected.Homer J wrote:Do squats I know Chris Hoy does and he aint too bad (although he uses weights)0 -
Body weight exercises (chins, press ups etc) done a few times a week for a few minutes are unlikely to hinder your cycling and might contribute to a stronger upper body/core which might help with minor aches and pains when riding for longer periods - especially if you MTB a lot. They might help with your general sense of wellbeing -But they wont help ride youre bike further or faster from the aerobic point of view.0
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Good question.amaferanga wrote:jacster wrote:One of alexsimmons' pearls - you have enough core strength to ride a bike powerfully if you can stand up for longer than you need to bike.
He's never produced any scientific evidence for this..yet he stands behind a wall of 'scientific evidence' as he continually knocks down the posts of other forum users.
For some reason he finds it impossible to contain himself when he spots what he believes to be an 'error'.
Rather than simply answering the OP's questions he delights in trying to be a fountain of knowledge...much of which is based on nothing.
Alex Simmons provides a LOT of useful information on here. If you disagree with him then why not put across your view instead of the personal attacks?
It is my observation that jacster's tendency is to resort to ad hominem and numerous other logical fallacies in "debate", rather than actually use sounds reasoning with a basis in exercise physiology, and/or any evidence of efficacy for whatever it is s/he is promulgating.0 -
My point about Alexsimmons is that he would rather deconstruct another user's post than actually answer the OP.
He's a coach, I believe, and I find it staggering that he would spend so much time doing this rather than offering informative answers.
Although, yes, he does offer up a lot of advice too.
But my first dealing with him was when he decided to deconstruct what I was saying, so I'm merely pointing out my observations about this particular 'coach'.
In response to the OP I have been undertaking a core strengthening programme, which consists of twisting lunge, superman, flying stand, side lunge, stability ball prone cobra and squats.
My core strength - tested by my coach - has improved massively. I can now hold a powerful TT position for the duration of a 100mile TT. My ability to keep good form on long climbs has improved no end. And I put this down to the above programme.
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Jacster, why this fascination with core and strength work then?
Do you think that doing core/strength work has helped make you a better ride and improved your results in races?0 -
jacster wrote:My point about Alexsimmons is that he would rather deconstruct another user's post than actually answer the OP.
He's a coach, I believe, and I find it staggering that he would spend so much time doing this rather than offering informative answers.
Although, yes, he does offer up a lot of advice too.
But my first dealing with him was when he decided to deconstruct what I was saying, so I'm merely pointing out my observations about this particular 'coach'.
In response to the OP I have been undertaking a core strengthening programme, which consists of twisting lunge, superman, flying stand, side lunge, stability ball prone cobra and squats.
My core strength - tested by my coach - has improved massively. I can now hold a powerful TT position for the duration of a 100mile TT. My ability to keep good form on long climbs has improved no end. And I put this down to the above programme.
I hate time delay in internet, you've started to answer my question I see, before I even asked it. :?
This one jumps out at me '...powerful TT position for the duration of a 100mile TT...'
You think you were able to do that BECAUSE of the extra core work you do. I'd argue that if you rode your bike enough, you'd be able to do that without doing any extra core work.0 -
Chrisw12,
I agree that riding your bike - provided it's done with purpose and a plan - is going to reap results.
But like most (I suspect) training time is pretty limited. Three rides a week is all that I can manage. Slotting in 10-20 mins of core work is possible, though.
That's one of the reasons I'm an advocate..because based on that limited training I've won a TT and posted the second-quickest time in a sportive.
In the real world we can't all train five hours a day, six-seven days a week.0 -
How were the statements I made in this thread incorrect or not helpful in the context of the information sought?jacster wrote:My point about Alexsimmons is that he would rather deconstruct another user's post than actually answer the OP.
Or do you think it is better that an incorrect source of information be left to stand without some scrutiny or at least some validation or understanding of context?
Perhaps you think it is better to perpetuate training myths?
What would people prefer?
Personally, I think if it encourages people to think about what they are about to say or claim before doing so, rather than simply regurgitate something their mate said or they read in a magazine, then that's a good thing. Be skeptical, do some research. Might learn something. I know I do.0 -
LA works out with weights, he aint too bad. Don't know the equivilent would be for body weight excersises0
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Every pro cyclist probably works out with weights. But for VERY short periods of the year (usually the winter) and do very specific exercises.
Mostly they do it for magazine articles or books they are pushing!
Chris Hoy does LOTS of gym work - because it is beneficial to sprinting. Bradley Wiggins does very little gym work because it doesn't help his type of riding.
Again - if you have the musculature of a jellyfish, then you will benefit from some gym work. If you've already got a strong core - work on improving your aerobic fitness as this is what will make you a better/faster/stronger rider.0 -
Homer J wrote:LA works out with weights, he aint too bad. Don't know the equivilent would be for body weight excersises
I agree. I don't see where the idea that weight training is HARMFUL to cycling has any merit at all. It's exercise, it makes you stronger. I'll grant you that if your goal is to look like Arnold, then your cycling will probably suffer, but only because you'll be too tired to ride
after spending all that time under a barbell. We're not talking bodybuilding here. We're
talking about guys who ride, and possibly race, bikes, doing some weight training to break
up the monotony a bit and get a little stronger in the overall body. This is not about developing 20 inch arms.0 -
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Homer J wrote:
EDIT: I can lift 12kg more than Hoy. With one leg. 8)0 -
There are some really good sites out there on body weight exercises - some (or more) of it is extremely impressive.
As far as I can tell (have only tried a few 'moves') using body weight only promotes strength whilst staying fairly lean, so unlikely to be much of a negative. Also they seem to be high repitition, so comparatively good for endurance - compared to smashing 6 reps of the highest weight you can lift.0 -
i do bodyweight exercises (pullups, dips, pushups, sit ups) a couple of times a week.
Nowt to do with improving my cycling, more that i don't want to be a flabby, skinny little runt with the physical strength of a 12 year old girl.
I've seen plenty of very good cyclists who fit this mould unfortunately and it's just lame, seeing as though we ponce about in f*cking lycra we owe it to ourseves to make up for this by being able to at least be able to shift our own bodyweight around.
If a grown man can't do at least 3x30 pushups, 3x30 situps and 10 dead hang pullups then they need to get their act together0 -
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826297
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313261
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10378917
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/118203270 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826297
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313261
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10378917
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11820327
"The present data suggest that increased leg strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained, female cyclists."
But I'm not a woman! (Although I ride like one).
I need to improve my short sprint times. Flying 200m and Kilo. I need to improve FTP also for RR and TT. I have to compete on BOTH the track and road.
Will weights help with the sprint events?0 -
It depends.Pokerface wrote:I need to improve my short sprint times. Flying 200m and Kilo. I need to improve FTP also for RR and TT. I have to compete on BOTH the track and road.
Will weights help with the sprint events?
The primary physiological limiting issue for sprinting usually isn't strength*, it's the speed of muscle contraction, as well as the ability to sustain that sort of high power/pedal speed effort for durations approaching 20 seconds.
The rate we turn pedals on a bike means that the muscles almost never get the chance to apply maximal forces (force application opportunity lasts <150millisec at 130rpm, whereas muscles require ~ 500ms to generate maximal force), so if the muscles are too slow to fire, it won't matter squat (pun intended) how strong you are.
IOW, the best training for sprinting, is sprinting (because that is activating the muscles at the muscle contraction speeds required).
Now in your case, there may well be a strength related force limiting issue when sprinting (and especially for standing starts) due to your leg and so investigating your maximal pedal force-pedal speed relationship from a quadrant analysis of power meter data from sprints and starts might provide some clues as to what areas of development are appropriate for you. I know that is an issue I may need to address for myself if I end up going the kilo/team sprint route.
* as a guide, for sprinters at the very elite level (Olympic match sprint), if they are sqautting ~ 2x body mass or perhaps a little more, then they are strong enough, and furrther strength development, while possible, isn't likely to be required. So it's more about maintenance. Focus should be on developing the speed/rate at which force can be applied. As an example, I was more than capable of squatting 2.5x body mass and significantly more than someone like Ryan Bayley, but he could put nearly 3 seconds into me in a flying 200. There are lots of strong, but slow "sprinters" like me.0 -
There is very little science or evidence to back up this assertion. But that's old ground, covered here before.
There's certainly not much to refute it either, but I know what had the biggest effect on me getting up Winterfold in the saddle without my back feeling like someone had kicked me with their best carbon soled Sidi's.
I'm currently trying to pull together my own programme for the rest of the year based on The Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe Friel. There's a fairly simple set of weights and stretching exercises in there that are a decent start if you don't have the benefits of someone like Alex's wisdom to call on 0
