What improvement is realistic?

TheDrunkMonk

This may even be for the beginners page...

I'm a tubby commuter (sometimes) and I've done a few short Sportives, but this year I want to do the Tour of Wessex at least 2 days, if not 3.

My friend has very kindly sold me his i-magic turbo trainer very cheaply, so I've now got some stats to tell me I'm no Merkx.

I can only just maintain 180 watts for an hour now. (call this the start) how much improvement could I expect with some good structured training in 6 months, or is that what I'm dealt, and I just have to get my weight down to make the most of my power?

Bronzie

Impossible to say without doing some lab testing I think but I seem to remember Alex posting that an average VO2 max for a relatively fit club cyclist is around 55ml/kg/min which depending on genetic efficiency (which you are stuck with) and some other factors that you can improve to an extent gives FTP in the range of 2.5W/kg - 3.9W/kg.

Also bear in mind that it's not unusual to have a lower FTP on an indoor trainer than out on the road plus I'm not sure how accurate the I-Magic's power output is likely to be (+/- 10%?).

This thread has a bit more about the relationship between VO2 max and FTP:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12633254

ut_och_cykla

Getting your weight down will help - if you dont lose the will/energy to train at the same time - do it slowly ½ kilogram a week is enough over six months = 12kgs!. Changes in diet might also help you feel livelier!
Power improvements depend very much on where you are now on the fitness scale, how focused you can be about doing tough training and what your genetic limitations are. Yo're not starting from scratch but you perhasp dont have a good exercise background so take it step by step adn listen to your body. You might find a coach would be a help. good luck!

Alex_Simmons/RST

TheDrunkMonk wrote:

I can only just maintain 180 watts for an hour now. (call this the start) how much improvement could I expect with some good structured training in 6 months, or is that what I'm dealt, and I just have to get my weight down to make the most of my power?

Anywhere from 5% to 50% is realistic. How much depends on a lot of things.

Here's my progress in 20-min power (average and normalised) from June 2008 to Jan 2009:



That's a 60% increase in average power (180W to 289W) and a 68% increase in Normalised Power (182W to 306W).

In the 10 months since then I have increased to AP a further 11% to 322W and NP 6% to 325W.

So, like I said, it depends on lots of things - there you see a 60+% improvement in ~ 6 months, but "only" a 5-10% improvement in the next 10 months.

themightyw

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

TheDrunkMonk wrote:

I can only just maintain 180 watts for an hour now. (call this the start) how much improvement could I expect with some good structured training in 6 months, or is that what I'm dealt, and I just have to get my weight down to make the most of my power?

Anywhere from 5% to 50% is realistic. How much depends on a lot of things.

Here's my progress in 20-min power (average and normalised) from June 2008 to Jan 2009:

I'm really interested in this thread, as I'm also a tubby enthusiast with a new iMagic. My power output, from a brief hour or two on the iMagic, seems to be about 150w also. Because much of the discussion in here is between people who already have a decent understanding of their FTP, and have already been training, I'd really love some pointers about what kind of workout is most suited to a novice who has yet to do the basics.

What I was intending to do over the next few months, is:

- Focus on losing weight (about half a stone) in 6 months
- Monday-Thursday alternate between 90 minute 'tours' on varied terrain on the turbo / 1 hr interval work (though I was going to start off with 30 mins of interval work as it's exhausting).
- Sat / Sun - 1 hour 'TT style' cycle at max comfortable speed.

I'll be supplimenting this with occasional runs and swims.

Does that seem a reasonable starting point to increase base cycle fitness?

Gav888

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

TheDrunkMonk wrote:

I can only just maintain 180 watts for an hour now. (call this the start) how much improvement could I expect with some good structured training in 6 months, or is that what I'm dealt, and I just have to get my weight down to make the most of my power?

Anywhere from 5% to 50% is realistic. How much depends on a lot of things.

Here's my progress in 20-min power (average and normalised) from June 2008 to Jan 2009:



That's a 60% increase in average power (180W to 289W) and a 68% increase in Normalised Power (182W to 306W).

In the 10 months since then I have increased to AP a further 11% to 322W and NP 6% to 325W.

So, like I said, it depends on lots of things - there you see a 60+% improvement in ~ 6 months, but "only" a 5-10% improvement in the next 10 months.

What training are you doing to get those sort of gains!! 2 x 20 threshold intervals throughout all training periods, ie base, build etc?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Gav888 wrote:

What training are you doing to get those sort of gains!! 2 x 20 threshold intervals throughout all training periods, ie base, build etc?

What, and give away all our secrets?

I can tell what it didn't include:
- weight/strength training
- core "strength" training
- "strength endurance" low cadence hill work
- one legged pedalling
- long slow rides
- many group rides

I ride my bike with reasonably consistent frequency. Workload is progressively increased in a sustainable manner. It includes steady rides (not slow, nothing under IF 0.7), solid endurance training, heavy tempo, threshold development, sprint efforts, short harder intervals, road, track, ergo. An occasional race even. Test efforts like 16km TTs and MAP tests.

Here's the performance manager chart for that same period also showing daily ride stress scores. The line to note is the blue one indicating how my chronic (long term) training loads were increasing.



CTL went from zero to 60 TSS/day or a ramp rate of 2 TSS/day per week on average. That's actually a pretty low ramp rate. You can see two periods where training was backed off. The long one was due to injury, the second a family matter that required me to travel away.

For those that want an explanation of the above chart, see this post:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2006/10/ ... chart.html

Pokerface

Alex - how do you rate the training plan in Allen and Coggan's 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter'?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Pokerface wrote:

Alex - how do you rate the training plan in Allen and Coggan's 'Training and Racing with a Power Meter'?

I've never used it, can't say.

It would be there as an example of a plan but whether that plan is suitable for any given individual is the key question. For most, quite possibly not.

Pokerface

Do you feel you can offer suitable training plans to someone you've never met? (This isn't a dig - but an honest question).

Alex_Simmons/RST

Pokerface wrote:

Do you feel you can offer suitable training plans to someone you've never met? (This isn't a dig - but an honest question).

Yes, provided you get answers to the right questions.

nmcgann

Be careful inferring much from Alex's own improvement though - he was/is recovering from a very serious injury and the levels he has reached now are pretty much somewhere he has been before his accident.

It's pretty amazing progress, but I doubt that sheer level of improvement would be seen by any other non-beginner cyclist.

Alex_Simmons/RST

nmcgann wrote:

Be careful inferring much from Alex's own improvement though - he was/is recovering from a very serious injury and the levels he has reached now are pretty much somewhere he has been before his accident.

It's pretty amazing progress, but I doubt that sheer level of improvement would be seen by any other non-beginner cyclist.

Which is exactly why I also provided information showing 5-10% improvement in the following 10 months. i.e. a far slower rate of improvement.

IOW I was backing up my original statement that the rate of progress could quite feasibly be 5-50% depending on many factors. And I have seen other riders show similar strong gains, while others gain at the lower end of the spectrum.

Bronzie

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

nmcgann wrote:

Be careful inferring much from Alex's own improvement though - he was/is recovering from a very serious injury and the levels he has reached now are pretty much somewhere he has been before his accident.

It's pretty amazing progress, but I doubt that sheer level of improvement would be seen by any other non-beginner cyclist.

Which is exactly why I also provided information showing 5-10% improvement in the following 10 months. i.e. a far slower rate of improvement.

IOW I was backing up my original statement that the rate of progress could quite feasibly be 5-50% depending on many factors. And I have seen other riders show similar strong gains, while others gain at the lower end of the spectrum.

That said, I would expect a "tubby (sometimes) commuter" who has ridden "a few short sportives" could make some pretty decent gains given a structured training programme and the willpower to carry out the necessary training.

Bronzie

themightyw wrote:

what kind of workout is most suited to a novice who has yet to do the basics.

Do the basics first!

As Alex has already posted, a good progressive training plan starting with gradually increasing intensity and duration of Level 2 > 3 > 4 rides will see you make major gains at least to start with.

Getting the absolute maximum out of yourself is of course never going to be easy or quick - think long term with regard to season upon season improvement.