Hog Hill Winter Series

gattocattivo

I see from the Hillingdon thread that a few people have been doing the Hog Hill races and it might as well have its own thread.

I'm thinking of doing the 4th cat race this weekend, if we don't have a load of ice. I haven't raced for three months or ridden that much recently due to illness / the weather, so this could be pretty brutal. I did a couple of them in Jan/Feb last season and got dropped by the third or fourth time up the 'berg, so just hanging onto the back of the bunch till the end would be satisfying enough for me.

Edit: actually, I'm not going to bother this week - went out this morning and it was pretty icy, the forecast tonight is for some snow, so I don't fancy it

rjeffroy

Did the E123 today, a couple of icy patches but they were coned off so no danger.
Didn't get in the break but managed to stay with the main group. Might have been in with a chance to pick up some points but punctured with 2 laps to go...

RoadieBob

I did the cat 4 race yesterday, as rjeffroy says the circuit was pretty much fine to ride. I prefer Hog Hill to Hillingdon - the more challenging circuit makes for more interesting racing. At Hillingdon the combination of no climbs, no challenging corners and lots of wind means that any breaks seem pretty doomed.

incog24

Are the 3rds still staying away in the E123? I heard they managed it for the first couple of races?

rjeffroy

Are the 3rds still staying away in the E123? I heard they managed it for the first couple of races?

It varies according to who turns up and how they handicap it. 1st couple of races the 3rds stayed away. Other races have seen:

1) 3 4th cats get 15 seconds, E123s start together. 4ths caught after 1 lap
2) 3rds start with 20 seconds, whole race together after 3 laps.

terongi

I've only raced at Hog Hill once.

the race went anti-clockwise (the full course), but I noticed that there are distance markers for the course to go round the other way as well.

Do the races tend to go in one direction rather than the other?

Has anyone raced clockwise? What is it like compared with the anticlockwise course?

gattocattivo

I've done five road races there and a couple of time trials. All of the road races were anti-clockwise (so coming up the main hill just before the finish line), but the time trials were clockwise.

I can't see there being any racing this weekend with the snow at the moment.

terongi

gattocattivo wrote:

I've done five road races there and a couple of time trials. All of the road races were anti-clockwise (so coming up the main hill just before the finish line), but the time trials were clockwise.

Why would they switch for time trials?

Is it because descending the main hill in a bunch is too dangerous, but OK for a solo TT rider?

gattocattivo

I'm not really sure, because you've got the other hill as well (let's call the hill by the finish line the 'Berg and the other one Hill B so it's clear what I'm talking about).

In terms of descending, Hill B is pretty fast and straight. A lot of riders free wheel for a large chunk of it. As I'm usually desperately hanging on, I normally try and work my up the field here so I keep pedalling until I'm doing at least 35mph before free wheeling. So you come to the bottom at a high speed and bend to the right - it's flat now so you can keep the speed up, but then there's a really tight right hand bend through nearly 180 degrees, so that's quite tricky and potentially dangerous.

Descending the 'Berg isn't actually any faster or more dangerous as far as I can tell (but I haven't done this in a bunch, only solo). It's swings and roundabouts: the actual descent is a bit trickier in that you've got a left bend near the top (at the steepest part) and then a right bend at the bottom, but after the descent you've got a nice long straight section without the nightmare of a switchback bend.

I think maybe the reason the time trial goes clockwise is that Hill B is a bit easier to climb than the Berg (it seems to me): they both gain about the same height, but the Berg seems to ramp up more towards the end. And if you're trying to attract time triailists you probably don't want to make the course too hilly (although having said that, if you're trying to avoid hills you wouldn't enter an event at Hog Hill anyway).

Also, I think one of the reasons that the road races go anti-clockwise is that the hill comes right before the finish line so it's probably easier for the judges to work out the finishing positions than it would be if they had a mass sprint coming in the opposite direction.

In my opinion the most dangerous section (going anti-clockwise) is just after the start when you've got the tight left, then a short descent, and then another sharp left. When you're on your own you can take this quite fast by going down the outside on the right and then clipping the apex on the left (and you just about manage to stay on the track back over on the right hand side). When you've got riders all around you you can't really do this as you'd take someone out on one side or the other, plus you're worried about the people around you misjudging the bend as well.

Pocket Rocket

gattocattivo wrote:

In my opinion the most dangerous section (going anti-clockwise) is just after the start when you've got the tight left, then a short descent, and then another sharp left. When you're on your own you can take this quite fast by going down the outside on the right and then clipping the apex on the left (and you just about manage to stay on the track back over on the right hand side). When you've got riders all around you you can't really do this as you'd take someone out on one side or the other, plus you're worried about the people around you misjudging the bend as well.

That's my favourite corner and where I tend to undertake people who have overtaken me on the hill, they brake, I don't and just wizz round
Conservation of energy is the key to racing at Hog Hill

rjeffroy

I did a race last year where the bottom section was closed off because of ice. We ran clockwise, so descended the 'Berg, sharp U turn at the bottom then straight back up Hill B. U Turn was a bit dicey because there was some mud that had run off the landscaping.

Like doing hill intervals...

Dess1e

Raced both direction in the Summer LVRC races. No easier the other direction, but can be more tactical as it isn't just who can climb the berg the quickest.

Pocket Rocket

Never ridden clockwise, although i'd like to. Ridden a couple of the Thursday summer races and a couple of Saturday events all on the full circuit. Do they reserve clockwise for the slightley maturer rider Des?

Dess1e

Pocket Rocket wrote:

Never ridden clockwise, although i'd like to. Ridden a couple of the Thursday summer races and a couple of Saturday events all on the full circuit. Do they reserve clockwise for the slightley maturer rider Des?

You could ask your new team mates, as most are older than me

I'm sure they've used it clockwise for some BC events, but they probably feel its a bit risky with 3/4ths

gattocattivo

Just out of interest - what kind of gear do people use for getting up the Berg?

I find it's perfectly possible to get up it on the big ring (maybe 53x21 or 23), but if I try to do this every lap then it soon takes its toll. So I normally try to grind about halfway up in the big ring (maybe 53x19) and then flip it into the small ring as it gets steeper just before the bend to the right. Most of the people around me seem to be putting it into the small ring right at the bottom, and I've tried this as well. Everything's fine for one lap, but hurts in the end. I'm hoping someone has the magical combination that means you never notice the climb

Pocket Rocket

gattocattivo wrote:

Just out of interest - what kind of gear do people use for getting up the Berg?

I find it's perfectly possible to get up it on the big ring (maybe 53x21 or 23), but if I try to do this every lap then it soon takes its toll. So I normally try to grind about halfway up in the big ring (maybe 53x19) and then flip it into the small ring as it gets steeper just before the bend to the right. Most of the people around me seem to be putting it into the small ring right at the bottom, and I've tried this as well. Everything's fine for one lap, but hurts in the end. I'm hoping someone has the magical combination that means you never notice the climb

39 every time! including the finish, using 19-23 mainly, slightly bigger for a faster ascent.
I change down before the climb as to avoid too much changing on the 'meat' of the hill, when the hammer is down.
You're right about not big ringing it every lap, you'd soon knacker yourself out!
You don't really want to be grinding up the first bit, as you tend to get attacks and changes of pace just after, and that's when you need the smaller gears to accelerate!

gattocattivo

I finally got around to my first race of the season this morning, doing the 4th cat one. Quite a few surprises: we were going clockwise for a change; there were puddles and a coned-off section to contend with; and the pace was actually quite gentle (or so it seemed to me - normally I feel like I'm going to die, today I felt fine). I was able to sit in the bunch quite comfortably for the first 45 minutes and then the sign went up for five laps to go. Just as the pace lifted, two riders in front of me overshot the bend at the top of the descent and I found myself following them off the road and onto the icy grass. Fortunately none of us actually crashed, but by the time we'd got back onto the road the bunch was about 20 seconds ahead of us. I thought we might be able to work together to chase back on, but the other two disappeared behind me while the bunch just got further away. I finished on my own, probably a minute after the winner. Frustrating, but I'm looking forward to the next one.

gattocattivo

Back in action again today in the 4th cat race. I stuck with the bunch nearly all the way today: got dropped with three laps to go, but worked with another rider and eventually chased our way back on about two minutes later. Then I got dropped again with about a lap and a half to go. I was close enough to see what was left of the bunch sprinting up the hill as I approached the bottom of it. I had a kind of sprint against a fellow straggler, but both of my legs were starting to cramp up by then.

About halfway through the race there was a crash in the middle of the bunch (taking down a couple of riders) going up the steepest part of the hill. I suppose if you're going to have a crash that's about the safest place for it.

gattocattivo

Nobody else posting on this thread any more?

Not a very satisfying race today in the 4th cats. The field was much smaller (23, down from 40 the week before), partly because of the weather (it was windy and cold, snowing when I was warming up, and hailstones in the middle of the race), and partly because there were none of the vast crowd of Beds Roads CC riders that have been there the other times.

I was feeling alright at first and led up the climb for the first two laps, but the bunch was split to pieces on the fifth lap and I went off the back. There was a leading group of about 7, and a chasing group of maybe 4 or 5, and a whole series of individual riders. I was hoping we could get a third group together, but everyone I caught got left behind or quit (apart from a Southend rider who kept dropping me on the Alpine bit who I had to spend two minutes of every lap chasing down).

I got a puncture and had to quit with 5 laps to go, but by this time the leaders were more than two minutes ahead of me and even the second group had disappeared out of sight, so it's not like I was going to do anything.

jibberjim

gattocattivo wrote:

Nobody else posting on this thread any more?

I'm interestedly reading your reports! Unfortunately I've not managed to get over to Hog Hill for any of the races, Hillingdon is just easier, even if the circuit doesn't suit me.

gattocattivo wrote:

I got a puncture and had to quit with 5 laps to go, but by this time the leaders were more than two minutes ahead of me and even the second group had disappeared out of sight, so it's not like I was going to do anything.

Small fields make for tougher races. If you watch the womens races they often shatter into pieces with the front group getting smaller, and smaller and smaller, then you always have the problems of different abilities. Although I hear the bad weather at Hog Hill had the womens race neutralize itself for the first half to make it less boring riding around alone in the crap weather!

gattocattivo

jibberjim wrote:

Small fields make for tougher races.

Yeah, seems that way. Last week there were more than 25 of us still at the front after 50 minutes, this week there were only about 7 in contention after just 15 minutes.

Edit: just seen the official results, and everyone apart from the leading 7 got lapped!

racingcondor

I thought there were a few more riders, I'm surprised it was only 23.

Was there a reason for the split? I was very happy to glance back and see it and even happier when it stuck but I'd be interested to know if there was a reason or if it was just a lapse of concentration from a couple of riders and we were gone (I'm the Dulwich rider).

Jibberjim, I'd recommend Hog Hill as well. Hillingdon is crowded and since there is no way to split the pack your chances of taking points are all dependant on you position approaching the final corner (or at least, that's my excuse!). Hog Hill gives you a chance to try a few things out, the hill always breaks up the pack so you avoid mass sprints and even individual break aways can work as the Cambridge rider proved on Saturday, he broke about 250m from the foot of the hill with one lap to go and no one had the legs to give chase.

Si C

gattocattivo wrote:

Back in action again today in the 4th cat race. I stuck with the bunch nearly all the way today: got dropped with three laps to go, but worked with another rider and eventually chased our way back on about two minutes later. Then I got dropped again with about a lap and a half to go. I was close enough to see what was left of the bunch sprinting up the hill as I approached the bottom of it. I had a kind of sprint against a fellow straggler, but both of my legs were starting to cramp up by then.

About halfway through the race there was a crash in the middle of the bunch (taking down a couple of riders) going up the steepest part of the hill. I suppose if you're going to have a crash that's about the safest place for it.

That crash happened right next to me...nothing like the sound of crunching carbon fibre to get the HR up a few beats more.

That was a good race. Seems the Bedford lads and Dulwich Paragon riders featured heavily in the top 10.

oldwelshman

Racing in winter is bad enough, but racing on carbon bikes also? Nuts.

Pocket Rocket

You could say the same about racing on carbon bikes in the summer, and most people do.

oldwelshman

Not really as less chance of ice patches and slippery bit as it is supposed to be drier in the summer, in theory
Also you will find the standard of riders gets better in the warmer weather, a lot of newish/inexperienced riders who race in winter are trying to get easy points OMO of course

Si C

oldwelshman wrote:

Not really as less chance of ice patches and slippery bit as it is supposed to be drier in the summer, in theory
Also you will find the standard of riders gets better in the warmer weather, a lot of newish/inexperienced riders who race in winter are trying to get easy points OMO of course

I think your right to some extent. To be honest the points mean nothing to me at the moment, I just want to get some practice and experience early season and hopefully run a bit better later in the year.

One of my buddies got promoted from 2 of the earlier races with smaller fields. His first cat 3 race lasted 3 laps...couldn't live with the increase in pace, and has come away from it somewhat demoralised.

Pocket Rocket

Si C wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Not really as less chance of ice patches and slippery bit as it is supposed to be drier in the summer, in theory
Also you will find the standard of riders gets better in the warmer weather, a lot of newish/inexperienced riders who race in winter are trying to get easy points OMO of course

I think your right to some extent. To be honest the points mean nothing to me at the moment, I just want to get some practice and experience early season and hopefully run a bit better later in the year.

One of my buddies got promoted from 2 of the earlier races with smaller fields. His first cat 3 race lasted 3 laps...couldn't live with the increase in pace, and has come away from it somewhat demoralised.

I think that your buddy may possibly have to look at improving his technical bunch riding ability, much more so than fitness levels, as if he was promoted from the 4th race, he must be OK.
Simple things like making sure you are close enough to the rider in front to get the full draughting (slipstream) effect and riding on the best slide if there is a crosswind, you'd be surpirsed how much energy you can save per lap, and it all adds up!

Si C

The fact that they ran the cat 3 in the opposite direction may have thrown him

oldwelshman

Si C wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Not really as less chance of ice patches and slippery bit as it is supposed to be drier in the summer, in theory
Also you will find the standard of riders gets better in the warmer weather, a lot of newish/inexperienced riders who race in winter are trying to get easy points OMO of course

I think your right to some extent. To be honest the points mean nothing to me at the moment, I just want to get some practice and experience early season and hopefully run a bit better later in the year.

One of my buddies got promoted from 2 of the earlier races with smaller fields. His first cat 3 race lasted 3 laps...couldn't live with the increase in pace, and has come away from it somewhat demoralised.

This is one of the problems with going up the catagories too easily.
I don't worry I will race a 3/4 2,3,4 or E,1,2,3. I just look to get better and more competative.
If you get higher license this time of year it can have 2 problems.
1) You may get higher category then really struggle to stay in the higher cat race from the beginning, and it can get worse as the more experienced riders start racing.
2) You cannot maintain your optimum racing form all year round. Ifd you race now you would probabl;y need a break in a couple of months.

I prefer to wait until the weather a bit warmer and the training is a bit more enjoyable and not a chore.
Then I will be fit enough to race by about May and competative by June and flying by July

celbianchi

oldwelshman wrote:

Si C wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Not really as less chance of ice patches and slippery bit as it is supposed to be drier in the summer, in theory
Also you will find the standard of riders gets better in the warmer weather, a lot of newish/inexperienced riders who race in winter are trying to get easy points OMO of course

I think your right to some extent. To be honest the points mean nothing to me at the moment, I just want to get some practice and experience early season and hopefully run a bit better later in the year.

One of my buddies got promoted from 2 of the earlier races with smaller fields. His first cat 3 race lasted 3 laps...couldn't live with the increase in pace, and has come away from it somewhat demoralised.

This is one of the problems with going up the catagories too easily.
I don't worry I will race a 3/4 2,3,4 or E,1,2,3. I just look to get better and more competative.
If you get higher license this time of year it can have 2 problems.
1) You may get higher category then really struggle to stay in the higher cat race from the beginning, and it can get worse as the more experienced riders start racing.
2) You cannot maintain your optimum racing form all year round. Ifd you race now you would probabl;y need a break in a couple of months.

I prefer to wait until the weather a bit warmer and the training is a bit more enjoyable and not a chore.
Then I will be fit enough to race by about May and competative by June and flying by July

Sage advice oldwelshman - chasing points in winter if you're just starting out is pretty foolish. I guess with some of these races down south one could move from 4th to 2nd on the back of a few winter rides. Then when the hurt is put on in a e/1/2/3 in May, they'll see they haven't got it.
Theres the first BC race of the season this Saturday up here in the NE. Mad. Most people seem mad keen in Feb and early March then pack in in July. Fools.