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Fred Whitton Entry changed - its a Lottery!

AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
Not that I'd be entering anyway but I know many will be....not long found out that the entry system has changed bigtime....long gone are the days where handed in entries on the first day proved a definate entry....local lads will now have the same chance as everyone else?

http://www.fredwhittonchallenge.org.uk/enter.html
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  • Yeah I saw that too (even though I'm not doing it this time round either) - think it's probably the best way to go about dealing with entries to heavily over-subscribed events. Although you can still get a guaranteed entry...for £250!
  • Or, if you're that desperate, just ride the route on the day and pay nothing. Means you can't / shouldn't take food etc at the feed stops, and don't end up in the results page. BFD.
  • amaferangaamaferanga Posts: 6,789
    AndyRubio wrote:
    Or, if you're that desperate, just ride the route on the day and pay nothing. Means you can't / shouldn't take food etc at the feed stops, and don't end up in the results page. BFD.

    I think that's bad form. There's a limit on the number of riders for safety reasons. You have to think about the consequences if hundreds of other cyclists decided to do the same....

    If you're desperate to ride the route and you don't get an entry then do it on one of the 364 days of the year that the FWC isn't on.
    More problems but still living....
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    amaferanga wrote:
    AndyRubio wrote:
    Or, if you're that desperate, just ride the route on the day and pay nothing. Means you can't / shouldn't take food etc at the feed stops, and don't end up in the results page. BFD.

    I think that's bad form. There's a limit on the number of riders for safety reasons. You have to think about the consequences if hundreds of other cyclists decided to do the same....

    If you're desperate to ride the route and you don't get an entry then do it on one of the 364 days of the year that the FWC isn't on.

    They are public roads...
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    Yes they are public roads, but the ride is a private event. You are riding on the day to be part of the atmosphere and buzz created by the organisers and other riders. If that isn't the case then ride it another day. If it is the case, you should abide by the wishes of the organisers, and stay away if you don't have an entry.
    Anything over the approved numbers could cause the organisers real hassle. As far as the public is concerned, if you are riding the route with other riders, you are part of the event!
  • nickwill wrote:
    Yes they are public roads, but the ride is a private event. You are riding on the day to be part of the atmosphere and buzz created by the organisers and other riders. If that isn't the case then ride it another day. If it is the case, you should abide by the wishes of the organisers, and stay away if you don't have an entry.
    Anything over the approved numbers could cause the organisers real hassle. As far as the public is concerned, if you are riding the route with other riders, you are part of the event!

    Yes and no... all sportives have a yield... meaning not all the entrants show up on the day. Depending on the event and the weather the yield can be as low as 50%. I assume for a pricey and very popular one like the FWC, on a good sunny day the yield is probably between 80 and 90%.
    That still leaves around 100 empty spaces... which in principle can be "filled" by non payers without exceeding the limits imposed by Health and Safety regulations.

    To be honest the problem has never materialised and it's only in our minds... if an event is so succesful that entering it becomes a lottery, then organisers can expect a few "fee dodgers" to show up on the day. As long as you don't deprive other riders of their paid for refreshments, there is no reason to point a "j'accuse" finger.
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    But the organisers tend to build in an expected number of 'no shows' into their calculations.
    Thus an event might allow 1000 entries, but only expect 800.
    In the end I think it's down to 'good manners'.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    nickwill wrote:
    Yes they are public roads, but the ride is a private event. You are riding on the day to be part of the atmosphere and buzz created by the organisers and other riders. If that isn't the case then ride it another day. If it is the case, you should abide by the wishes of the organisers, and stay away if you don't have an entry.
    Anything over the approved numbers could cause the organisers real hassle. As far as the public is concerned, if you are riding the route with other riders, you are part of the event!

    Yes and no... all sportives have a yield... meaning not all the entrants show up on the day. Depending on the event and the weather the yield can be as low as 50%. I assume for a pricey and very popular one like the FWC, on a good sunny day the yield is probably between 80 and 90%.
    That still leaves around 100 empty spaces... which in principle can be "filled" by non payers without exceeding the limits imposed by Health and Safety regulations.

    To be honest the problem has never materialised and it's only in our minds... if an event is so succesful that entering it becomes a lottery, then organisers can expect a few "fee dodgers" to show up on the day. As long as you don't deprive other riders of their paid for refreshments, there is no reason to point a "j'accuse" finger.

    Disagree...and had this same arguement many times....basically selfish behaviour....and thats it full stop. Legal as it is, its simply using an event for your own purposes...whether you eat at the feeds or not...you are still using the events unique atmosphere....but it is true that a good few will do this...afterall a good % of people are selfish and care nothing of anything apart from themsleves?

    If people are that desperate why not get a definate entry by raising £250 for the charity....I raised £500 for the 2007 FWC and it wasnt a huge effort? but then again thats unselfish behaviour :roll:
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    RICHYBOYcp wrote:
    nickwill wrote:
    Yes they are public roads, but the ride is a private event. You are riding on the day to be part of the atmosphere and buzz created by the organisers and other riders. If that isn't the case then ride it another day. If it is the case, you should abide by the wishes of the organisers, and stay away if you don't have an entry.
    Anything over the approved numbers could cause the organisers real hassle. As far as the public is concerned, if you are riding the route with other riders, you are part of the event!

    Yes and no... all sportives have a yield... meaning not all the entrants show up on the day. Depending on the event and the weather the yield can be as low as 50%. I assume for a pricey and very popular one like the FWC, on a good sunny day the yield is probably between 80 and 90%.
    That still leaves around 100 empty spaces... which in principle can be "filled" by non payers without exceeding the limits imposed by Health and Safety regulations.

    To be honest the problem has never materialised and it's only in our minds... if an event is so succesful that entering it becomes a lottery, then organisers can expect a few "fee dodgers" to show up on the day. As long as you don't deprive other riders of their paid for refreshments, there is no reason to point a "j'accuse" finger.

    Disagree...and had this same arguement many times....basically selfish behaviour....and thats it full stop. Legal as it is, its simply using an event for your own purposes...whether you eat at the feeds or not...you are still using the events unique atmosphere....but it is true that a good few will do this...afterall a good % of people are selfish and care nothing of anything apart from themsleves?

    If people are that desperate why not get a definate entry by raising £250 for the charity....I raised £500 for the 2007 FWC and it wasnt a huge effort? but then again thats unselfish behaviour :roll:

    But they are public roads...

    The roads aren't closed for the occasion...

    I personally wouldn't do it but I'm playing devil's advocate here, what is to stop someone riding the route on the same day? Nothing.

    Are people who own a classic car banned from driving from London to Brighton on the day of the London to Brighton run?
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    NapoleonD wrote:
    RICHYBOYcp wrote:
    nickwill wrote:
    Yes they are public roads, but the ride is a private event. You are riding on the day to be part of the atmosphere and buzz created by the organisers and other riders. If that isn't the case then ride it another day. If it is the case, you should abide by the wishes of the organisers, and stay away if you don't have an entry.
    Anything over the approved numbers could cause the organisers real hassle. As far as the public is concerned, if you are riding the route with other riders, you are part of the event!

    Yes and no... all sportives have a yield... meaning not all the entrants show up on the day. Depending on the event and the weather the yield can be as low as 50%. I assume for a pricey and very popular one like the FWC, on a good sunny day the yield is probably between 80 and 90%.
    That still leaves around 100 empty spaces... which in principle can be "filled" by non payers without exceeding the limits imposed by Health and Safety regulations.

    To be honest the problem has never materialised and it's only in our minds... if an event is so succesful that entering it becomes a lottery, then organisers can expect a few "fee dodgers" to show up on the day. As long as you don't deprive other riders of their paid for refreshments, there is no reason to point a "j'accuse" finger.

    Disagree...and had this same arguement many times....basically selfish behaviour....and thats it full stop. Legal as it is, its simply using an event for your own purposes...whether you eat at the feeds or not...you are still using the events unique atmosphere....but it is true that a good few will do this...afterall a good % of people are selfish and care nothing of anything apart from themsleves?

    If people are that desperate why not get a definate entry by raising £250 for the charity....I raised £500 for the 2007 FWC and it wasnt a huge effort? but then again thats unselfish behaviour :roll:

    But they are public roads...

    The roads aren't closed for the occasion...

    I personally wouldn't do it but I'm playing devil's advocate here, what is to stop someone riding the route on the same day? Nothing.

    Are people who own a classic car banned from driving from London to Brighton on the day of the London to Brighton run?

    There is nothing to stop anyone joining the ride, apart from good manners and consideration for others. Society is held together by the majority of people adhering voluntarily to a sense of decency and fair play!
  • SBezzaSBezza Posts: 2,173
    Thing is, by turning it into a lottery, the chances of free riders riding is increased. If say a few mates enter together, but only 1 or 2 get selected, do you really think that the other mates wouldn't bother riding as well.

    Also say more sportive organisers go down this route, then the chances of it happening more frequently and in greater numbers is highly likely. Better to have a first come basis in my eyes.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    nickwill wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    RICHYBOYcp wrote:
    nickwill wrote:
    Yes they are public roads, but the ride is a private event. You are riding on the day to be part of the atmosphere and buzz created by the organisers and other riders. If that isn't the case then ride it another day. If it is the case, you should abide by the wishes of the organisers, and stay away if you don't have an entry.
    Anything over the approved numbers could cause the organisers real hassle. As far as the public is concerned, if you are riding the route with other riders, you are part of the event!

    Yes and no... all sportives have a yield... meaning not all the entrants show up on the day. Depending on the event and the weather the yield can be as low as 50%. I assume for a pricey and very popular one like the FWC, on a good sunny day the yield is probably between 80 and 90%.
    That still leaves around 100 empty spaces... which in principle can be "filled" by non payers without exceeding the limits imposed by Health and Safety regulations.

    To be honest the problem has never materialised and it's only in our minds... if an event is so succesful that entering it becomes a lottery, then organisers can expect a few "fee dodgers" to show up on the day. As long as you don't deprive other riders of their paid for refreshments, there is no reason to point a "j'accuse" finger.

    Disagree...and had this same arguement many times....basically selfish behaviour....and thats it full stop. Legal as it is, its simply using an event for your own purposes...whether you eat at the feeds or not...you are still using the events unique atmosphere....but it is true that a good few will do this...afterall a good % of people are selfish and care nothing of anything apart from themsleves?

    If people are that desperate why not get a definate entry by raising £250 for the charity....I raised £500 for the 2007 FWC and it wasnt a huge effort? but then again thats unselfish behaviour :roll:

    But they are public roads...

    The roads aren't closed for the occasion...

    I personally wouldn't do it but I'm playing devil's advocate here, what is to stop someone riding the route on the same day? Nothing.

    Are people who own a classic car banned from driving from London to Brighton on the day of the London to Brighton run?

    There is nothing to stop anyone joining the ride, apart from good manners and consideration for others. Society is held together by the majority of people adhering voluntarily to a sense of decency and fair play!

    Indeed. I heartily agree, but nothing can be done about it. Increasing pricing is going to make matters worse, as will a lottery entry.

    There is now an increased chance of freeloaders turning up!

    A solution would be closed roads.

    Now then it would be worth a hefty entry fee!
  • I've been involved in one of these threads before so I won't drag out all the old arguments again, but I will say that I don't really buy the line that more riders than anticipated doing an event makes it somehow unsafe. I'm always hearing that having more bikes on the road makes cyclists safer - but apparently exactly the opposite is true for sportives?

    I don't really understand how the lottery system will increase freeloaders - loads of people complained that it was a lottery before, except with Royal Mail choosing the winners rather than Lofty! Seems like a fairer way of doing it to me, and I got an entry twice from two attempts with the old system so I'm certainly not going to benefit.
  • Again,

    I think you are creating a problem that does not exist. I have never seen this as a potential problem. It would be if half of the people on the course were dodgers, but does it ever happen? No, so it's pointless to look for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

    If one day this problem ever materialised, then it would be down to the organisers to sort it out, not certainly to us on a forum.

    A few cyclists showing up on the day have never spoiled anyone's experience...
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    We've been over this many times. Wouldn't do it myself, but if it's not closed roads, then
    why not.

    If it's your normal ride, why should you not continue as normal. If this invalidates the events
    insurance, then there's something inadequate about the insurance.

    Often different rides cross over. What would happen then?

    Now, to apply or not to apply. So much pain?

    How much they charging for 2010?
    exercise.png
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    I think it was £40 last year, which is a lot, but they raised £60,000 for charity.
    On that basis, I don't think anyone can object!
  • APIIIAPIII Posts: 2,010
    SBezza wrote:
    Thing is, by turning it into a lottery, the chances of free riders riding is increased. If say a few mates enter together, but only 1 or 2 get selected, do you really think that the other mates wouldn't bother riding as well.

    Also say more sportive organisers go down this route, then the chances of it happening more frequently and in greater numbers is highly likely. Better to have a first come basis in my eyes.[/quote

    That's a good point. I was planning to do the FWC with 'Disgruntledgoat' off here, but if it turned out that I got an entry and he didn't, then I probably wouldn't bother doing it. After all, it's not a lot of fun riding an event on your own, and I wouldn't want to freeload it, just a personal thing.
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    Had a look on the site and as before you can enter as a group and all or none of you get
    a place.

    Makes sense.
    exercise.png
  • LeighBLeighB Posts: 326
    I did four sportive rides in 2009; the FWC, Le Terrier, Three Counties and The Cumbrian Killer. All of these events had excellent organisation and superb ‘testing’ routes in some of the best (I’m a bit biased as I like here) countryside. I cannot understand why only the FWC has a full entry list and the other events are no where near as well supported; many local cyclists come out of the woodwork for the FWC and disappear again; why? All of the events have a link to some form of charity (Le Terrier for Lancaster’s homeless, Three CC was I think for the Air Ambulance and the Cumbrian Killer for the Leeds Children’s Holiday Camp) so I think it would be a shame to see these events disappear through lack of support leaving us reliant on a lottery for an entry into a local event.
  • And you can of course do it, timed, at other times - you just don't get the atmosphere and the feedstops. I'll be entering - assuming I have the same success as I have for that other lottery event the London Marathon I'm not holding out much hope!

    Wonder if they'll have to do a London and guarantee entries once you've had a few rejections?
  • tim000tim000 Posts: 718
    one option would be to do it on the same day but start an hour earlier or later . i wouldnt do it myself but if you really wanted to ride the route. you would get the benifit of the signage plus if starting before you would be caught by the faster riders or if starting late you could tear through the back markers. prob shouldnt use the feed stops though.
  • tim000 wrote:
    one option would be to do it on the same day but start an hour earlier or later . i wouldnt do it myself but if you really wanted to ride the route. you would get the benifit of the signage plus if starting before you would be caught by the faster riders or if starting late you could tear through the back markers. prob shouldnt use the feed stops though.

    There's no probably about it really; non-entrants who use feed stops need to be kicked in the nuts with a cleated shoe. I'm not bothered by people tagging along; it's not like there's a finite amount of an event's atmosphere to go round and direction signs won't be worn out by a few more people looking at them, but helping yourself to grub that ain't meant for you is tantamount to stealing IMO.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    nasahapley wrote:
    tim000 wrote:
    one option would be to do it on the same day but start an hour earlier or later . i wouldnt do it myself but if you really wanted to ride the route. you would get the benifit of the signage plus if starting before you would be caught by the faster riders or if starting late you could tear through the back markers. prob shouldnt use the feed stops though.

    There's no probably about it really; non-entrants who use feed stops need to be kicked in the nuts with a cleated shoe. I'm not bothered by people tagging along; it's not like there's a finite amount of an event's atmosphere to go round and direction signs won't be worn out by a few more people looking at them, but helping yourself to grub that ain't meant for you is tantamount to stealing IMO.

    There's no tantamount about it...
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    tim000 wrote:
    one option would be to do it on the same day but start an hour earlier or later . i wouldnt do it myself but if you really wanted to ride the route. you would get the benifit of the signage plus if starting before you would be caught by the faster riders or if starting late you could tear through the back markers. prob shouldnt use the feed stops though.

    I take it you have not did the FWC?......

    The 1250 riders or so will be starting between the hours 6am - 9am...theres no set time to start...so that scuppers this idea...you would simply be doing what the vast majority do?
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    tim000 wrote:
    one option would be to do it on the same day but start an hour earlier or later . i wouldnt do it myself but if you really wanted to ride the route. you would get the benifit of the signage plus if starting before you would be caught by the faster riders or if starting late you could tear through the back markers. prob shouldnt use the feed stops though.

    Why do it on the same day? You would have to be starting at 5am to be an hour before the first riders. By Buttermere, you would be surrounded by genuine entrants, and the same problems would occur.

    Do it the day before, the month before or any other time you like. The organisers have made it possible to do an electronically timed any time ride. Just go to the website and look.
    That way, you wouldn't be freeloading in any way and could ride with a free conscience!
  • Not doing the FW, but am entering another big European mountain running event that has a lottery system. Entries are open for 4 weeks, so there is no panic to send your entry off. If it's oversubscribed, there is a lottery for places. A group can enter as a team, so all in or all out.

    Importantly, if you are not successful in the lottery, you are guaranteed a place in the event for the following year. This means that everyone who is serious about taking part can do so at least 1 year in every 2.

    Would be interesting if the FW would consider the same.

    DB
    Planet-X SL Pro Carbon.
    Tifosi CK3 Winter Bike
    Planet X London Road Disc
    Planet X RT80 Elite
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    nickwill wrote:
    tim000 wrote:
    one option would be to do it on the same day but start an hour earlier or later . i wouldnt do it myself but if you really wanted to ride the route. you would get the benifit of the signage plus if starting before you would be caught by the faster riders or if starting late you could tear through the back markers. prob shouldnt use the feed stops though.

    Why do it on the same day? You would have to be starting at 5am to be an hour before the first riders. By Buttermere, you would be surrounded by genuine entrants, and the same problems would occur.

    Do it the day before, the month before or any other time you like. The organisers have made it possible to do an electronically timed any time ride. Just go to the website and look.
    That way, you wouldn't be freeloading in any way and could ride with a free conscience!

    Why is riding on public roads freeloading?
  • DaveMossDaveMoss Posts: 236
    when I did it a "freeloader" on the FWC went and crashed quite badly, thus endagering bona fodi riders, but worse, tied up the event first aiders and created hassle for the organising team.

    If you live on the route, no one can complain if you go to collect the sunday papers during the event. But driving to an event to ride round when your not entered very very bad (and means your very sad as well, like you don't know how to do a bike ride unless it's with hundreds of others)
    Sportives and tours, 100% for charity, http://www.tearfundcycling.btck.co.uk
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    DaveMoss wrote:
    when I did it a "freeloader" on the FWC went and crashed quite badly, thus endagering bona fodi riders, but worse, tied up the event first aiders and created hassle for the organising team.

    If you live on the route, no one can complain if you go to collect the sunday papers during the event. But driving to an event to ride round when your not entered very very bad (and means your very sad as well, like you don't know how to do a bike ride unless it's with hundreds of others)

    The arguments just don't stand up.

    They are public roads.

    You can't stop the public riding on public roads.
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    NapoleonD wrote:
    DaveMoss wrote:
    when I did it a "freeloader" on the FWC went and crashed quite badly, thus endagering bona fodi riders, but worse, tied up the event first aiders and created hassle for the organising team.

    If you live on the route, no one can complain if you go to collect the sunday papers during the event. But driving to an event to ride round when your not entered very very bad (and means your very sad as well, like you don't know how to do a bike ride unless it's with hundreds of others)

    The arguments just don't stand up.

    They are public roads.

    You can't stop the public riding on public roads.

    You are right to that extent. You can't stop the public riding on public roads. However the riders conscience should stop him from taking part in a sportive that he doesn't hold a valid entry to. We've all inadvertently found ourselves sharing the roads with sportive riders on part of a sportive route. There is nothing wrong with that.
    This isn't about legal rights, it's about showing respect to others.
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