To Rohloff or not to Rohloff???

stuhugh

Ok folks ....

What's everyone's thoughs on sticking a Rohloff hub on your bike?

I'm going to be getting a custome made Van Nic Frame made up and have the option of sticking with tried and tested front and rear mech or exploring the barve new world (for me) of the Rohloff hub.

I do a lot of trail centre and cross country riding in the lake district. I ride all year round, normally a coupld of three hour rides every week. What excites me about the Rohloff is being able to hose the bike down at the end of the ride and not even look at it till the next ride out (or, quite often not even bother with the hose-down!).

On the down side, I'm not a full on weight-weeny cross countyr racing freak, but I would like the weight of my bike to stay reasonably light, and I don't like some of the horror stories of coffee-grinder inneffecient pedaling!

So what are everyone's thoughts on the Rohloff? Would you go down this route if it was a straight choice?

N.B I'm not too bothered about the expense, I've been saving hard and have budgetted for the Rohloff - so wouldn't let the price of the Rohloff put me off if it was the right option.

ride_whenever

They are amazing...

A mate of mine has three and i've taken them for a bit of a spin it completely blew me away.

You've got the low maintenance of a single speed, with the silent drivetrain and clean looks, but also have gears.

I'd go for it if budget allows.

cee

I love the idea of a geared hub....get rid of that rear mech and for me the most easily damaged part of the bike is no longer a problem....

and 14 gears is plenty too....

but for me, the cost is prohibitive......and i don't fancy the gripshift either. not sure if you can use trigger shifters with the rohloff.....

I would definitely keep it in mind though...

joshtp

i would like on if it wasent for the cost, and funky shifter.

cat_with_no_tail

I am in the process of building a top secret hub geared bike. Estimated completion March 2010 (due mainly to the fact that my money tree seems to be broken).

I looked at Rohloff, but decided that whilst it's a brilliant invention, cost was too high for me (once I'd bought the hub, rim, spokes, Axle plate and fittings).

Instead, I've gone for a Shimano Alfine hub and a double ring up front. Obviously, not as good as the Rohloff, but at a fifth of the price including all fittings front and rear, I'm happy to give it a try.

You could even go for Alfine and Hammerschmitt if it'll fit on your frame, now THAT would be impressive!

bomberesque

I'd try what catwithnotail is trying.

Alfine is 400gr or so lighter than a Rolly and I'm not convinced by the "rollhoff is better" wisdom either. For sure it should be for the money and objectively it has a higher gearing spread but in the end and Alfine still gives you roughly equal gearing to 2x9 and this is enough for most folks. Plus you can get a wheel for about 200 quid all up.

If money was no object then fine, rolly gets the nod with the wider spread, but that aside (and because money most definitely is an object) I don't think that the rolly warrants the extra

as for peddalling efficiency. I can't speak for the Rolly but the Alfine is fine. I use one for my daily commute and for touring and have put about 5000 km into mine this year. I have heard that if you strip the hub and replace the grease with oil, then it will roll better but tbh I haven't noticed a problem so I've never ventured there.

ride_whenever

We sell a lot of hub geared bikes where i work.

The Rohloffs we see back every few thousand miles for an oil change, the alfines, nexus sram, sturmey's all come back for tweaking, to have parts replaced, servicing. I'd say the rohloff is worth the premium if you have the budget for it.

I'd love a long travel bike with a rohloff and hammerschmidt. It'd be perfect for me.

Soul Boy

One of the only drawbacks I see is that although they advertise it as the same weight as front and rear deraillieur set-up, all the weight with a Rohloff is out back, making for a heavy rear end.

Quite intersted though to see how a Hammerschmidt, Alphine/Rohloff combo would work though.

bomberesque

ride_whenever wrote:

We sell a lot of hub geared bikes where i work.

The Rohloffs we see back every few thousand miles for an oil change, the alfines, nexus sram, sturmey's all come back for tweaking, to have parts replaced, servicing. I'd say the rohloff is worth the premium if you have the budget for it.

that's interesting; what's the main complaint with Alfines and what is the main use (Off road / commuting?)

I must say the only tweaking I've had to do is the cable stretch (which seems excessive and in need of more adjustment than I would have thought normal) but it's a tweak every thousand Km or so so not really an issue. I've not heard of any alfines actually failing (although I'm sure there must be some) so it is interesting to hear about real world servicing requirements and niggles.

even then though at a fifth of the cost of a rollhoff, how do you justify the difference?

ride_whenever

sram make a worst of both worlds setup, IIRC it's a ?3? speed hub with a freehub so you can fit external gears too! Madness!

cat_with_no_tail

I would have gone for the Hammer with my Alfine, but sadly, they dont make one to fit my BB shell (yet)

Belt Drive with Rohloff would be sweet too, a lot of faffing about if your frame is not already set up for belt drive though (unless you have elevated chainstays).

bomberesque

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Belt Drive with Rohloff would be sweet too, a lot of faffing about if your frame is not already set up for belt drive though (unless you have elevated chainstays).

is it even possible to do without a split chain/seat stay or elevated stays? I'm keen as mustard on the idea of belt drives, it would be great if there were a way to fit one onto a normal frame......

cat_with_no_tail

yes, you have to open up your rear triangle, which is a process FAR too complicated for me to even consider, if you c0ck it up you've screwed your frame bigstyle.

The ones I've seen have cut through the dropout, then bolted a plate back over the top. Not terribly pretty, but it works.

This is where the cut goes

bomberesque

Ah yeah. Cutting my Ibis frame. Not gonna happen.

ah well, that idea'll have to wait till they make a breakable belt or I get a new SS frame..... which will (hopefully) be a while

billysan

Ive been running a Rohloff on my Cannondale for the last 18 months (see pics of it in the link bellow), and absolutely love it.

Some of my thoughts on ownership;

On deraileurs I hate gripshifts, but it makes perfect sense on the Rohloff. The ability to block shift large amounts of gears quickly is something that is so useful. But actually very hard to imagine if you've never been able to do it before. (Alfines cant do this, they only shift 1 gear at a time, either way).

They do make a bit of noise, but its not as bad as some people make out. some mates moan when following me on their full XTR setups, but I dont notice it anymore. It gets a lot quieter after 1000+ miles and an oil change or 2. You can feel a little drag in some gears, but it doesnt hinder performance. The drive is actually deadly silent in some gears (8th & 10th) it is a proper stealth bike, making no noise at all when pedaling.

The standard cables are crap. The outers are spiral would brake outer type and go bad very quickly. upgrade to proper multistrand lined outers and XTR inners for a super smooth shift.

You cant shift under full load like a derailieur, but with practice it only needs a momentary reduction in power. You can even do it when sprinting stood up, but it takes a bit of practice. If you dont ease off the power it has a habit of skipping gears and dumping you straight in 14th.

The hub is worth its weight in gold (in the rohloff's case that would be a lot of money) when it comes to mud. I recently used the bike at the Gorrick winter warmer 4 hour endurance race. I had ZERO mechanical transmission problems (brakes not included!) I lost count of the number of people I went past stood at the edge of the trail bashing and digging at their bikes trying to get them working. properly.

The rear discs are expensive, as Ive just found out. Its a propriatary 4 bolt fitment using chainring bolts. An Avid 160mm disc is £50.

For me the pro's far outweigh the con's. My bike is heavy (over 29 lbs) but I place a a higher value on reliability. By that I dont just mean not breaking down, but shifting reliability, handling etc etc. The bike never gets chain suck, it never throws a chain, the gears always work, I can always get the right gear quickly if I find myself in the wrong one (and can do without putting a foot pown or pedaling). Even if you get a big stick caught in the chain it just chomps through it and keeps going. Ive grown to like the weight at the back, it keeps the rear pinned down on rough ground. The rear wheel also builds up very strong indeed with the large wide hub flanges.

I reckon go for it, you'll never look back. The only way I'll get another derailieur bike is if it has a hammerschmidt on the front!!

stuhugh

Cheers Billy (and everyone else) for your thoughts and advice (anyone else please keep chipping in).

Loving the Badboy Billy - is that the Truative Stylo Singlespeed Chainring you've got on it? Is it the 42 tooth one?

Where did you get it? I can't seem to find one anywhere?

Cheers,

Stu

billysan

The truvativ chainset and ring with the partially polished outer guard came with the cannondale, but Im sure they can be had aftermarket. And that is a 42t.

I currently run the Saint 44t ring shown in the pic of the bike stood on the dead leaves. I wanted to up the entire gear spread, plus I thought it suited the look of the bike far better.

A couple more points that people dont always appreciate about the Rohloff. It has 2 cables running from the shifter to the hub, when you shift it is pulling on one of the cables. There is no return spring like in a normal shifter. The hub is indexed internally. The result is that there is always a degree of backlash, or play in the shifter in any gear, probably about 10 degrees of play even with the cables taught and correctly adjusted. This is partially to do with the remote click box system, but also the hub itself.

Lastly unless you have a bike designed specifically for a Rohloff, be prepared for some slightly messy cable runs. You need 2 full length outer parrallel runs, down the left hand side of the bike. Lots of cable ties needed in most cases.

ratty2k

Running an Alfine in my 29er (some pics in my sig link) Been brilliant so far! One thing tho' the gear sizes you can run are limited, the hub cannot handle too much torque going through it, so hammershit, or a double ring up front could possibly tear it apart internally...
Saying that though, it has performed really well for me, and the 8 gears have proved more than enough on Peak district rides and the odd trail centre. Running mine at 32-24 and can get up most things quite well...

gaz047

sounds like a good idea, especially the extrememly low maintenance, my only concern would be how much does it weigh in total, say compared to an xt/xtr or x9/x0 conventional setup?

ratty2k

Never weighed mine, but you only notice the weight of it when picking the bike up.

allthegearnoidea

there is a hap on STW thats built a bike up with alfine and hammersmit, looked an interesting idea and could be a great set up, be interesting to see how it works over time,
would love a rolly though, just dont think i'll be able to afford one for a long ol time lol! always interested me when saw pics in the ads in the mags around 02 ish,

billysan

I'd be interested to see the chainline on an Alfine/Hammerschmidt setup. You'd have no control over it and if it wasnt good it would remove one of the main advantages of the setup.

Extra pro's and con's of this system that I can see over a rohloff:

Pro's, huge ground clearance afforded by the Hammerschmidt. Ability to use 2 rapid fire shifters.

Con's, twice as much internal gearing drag! Large Hammerschmidt Q factor crank arms.

I'd certainly be willing to give it a go though. How many XC frames have ISGC mounts though?

bomberesque

billysan wrote:

Alfines cant do this [Blockshift], they only shift 1 gear at a time, either way.

Small point perhaps but my alfine will blockshift just fine. Perhaps the constraint you're talking about is in the trigger shifter? With the (rather ugly, I'll admit) alfine grip shift it will block shift, as it will with the J-tek bar end shifter (which is what I use)

billysan

Every Alfine Ive used had the trigger shifter, and that would only go 1 gear each way at a time. Are you refering to using a Nexus shifter? Shimano dont actually make an Alfine twist shifter!

allthegearnoidea

couple of threads on the hammersmidt and alfine d=from stw.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/t ... rankenbike

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/t ... r-at-last-

gotta admit, certainly sounds like a great idea, alfine hubs etc. temping!

bomberesque

billysan wrote:

Every Alfine Ive used had the trigger shifter, and that would only go 1 gear each way at a time. Are you refering to using a Nexus shifter? Shimano dont actually make an Alfine twist shifter!

maybe. My alfine factory wheel came supplied with the twist shifter and cable etc from the supplier, don't recall if it had a name written on it but it could have been the Nexus one. Still, the alfine will blockshift, if mated with a twist or bar end shifter.

billysan

Thats cool, I could see no reason why the hub would not. Its just a limitation of the shifter.

Here is the shimano link to the alfine group http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content ... lfine.html

stuhugh

billysan wrote:

You can feel a little drag in some gears, but it doesnt hinder performance. !

One of the points that frequently crops up is 'transmission drag' - what is transmission drag or what does it mean in layman's terms?

biff55

stuhugh wrote:

billysan wrote:

You can feel a little drag in some gears, but it doesnt hinder performance. !

One of the points that frequently crops up is 'transmission drag' - what is transmission drag or what does it mean in layman's terms?

resistance of all the moving mechanical elements of the gear system which reduces the
efficiency / energy of your pedal stroke.

billysan

biff55 wrote:

stuhugh wrote:

billysan wrote:

You can feel a little drag in some gears, but it doesnt hinder performance. !

One of the points that frequently crops up is 'transmission drag' - what is transmission drag or what does it mean in layman's terms?

resistance of all the moving mechanical elements of the gear system which reduces the
efficiency / energy of your pedal stroke.

It 'feels' like there is a bit more friction, that it takes a bit more effort just to turn the pedals before any of that energy is transfered into forward motion.

In the real world, it makes no real difference.

rohloffer

Hi;

I understand this is an older post but there are one or two comments about gear range that are questionable and a few other points I'd like to make below.

I own BOTH the Shimano Alfine hub and a Rohloff hub on two separate mountain bikes. (Alfine on a full sus bike, Rohloff on a fixed rear, front sus only ).

I've done over 1000 miles offroad on the Alfine and the experience 'sold' me on the hub concept so I upgraded to a Rohloff on my new bike. I've now done about 1500 miles on the Rohloff. I've been cycling for well over 20 years.

In terms of hubs in general, I will never, ever go back to cog gearsets. Quite frankly, in UK conditions or under heavy usage anywhere, cog gear users are doing it wrong. They forgot to read the manual.

I've had many an expensive trip/ride destroyed by slipping deraileurs, chains not staying in the right gear etc. It's a total nonsense design, APART from the cost element (and for those of us who think weight is an issue but still carry around a few extra pounds!).

The Alfine hub is absolutely a great introduction to hub gears. It really is. It will sell you on the hub concept and make you glad you changed. But that's all it is. Despite the claims in this thread, the gear range on the Alfine is simply NOT sufficient. For instance - I often ride quite some distance (35miles) on flat ground to my offroad hillclimb. Before each ride I have to think what gearing I want and manually swap out my rear cog to a larger/smaller size in order to achieve the desired gearing needed most on the ride. This guarantees I'll have the wrong gearing for 50% of the ride.

This swapout process is an absolute mother of a job IN the workshop (they use a snapring, not a circlip to secure the cog which turns a 30 second job into a 20 minute effort from hell). It would be nigh impossible to do on the road - and carrying tools around to do it is a pain. I reiterate the point that If you don't make the right decision, you'll be in the wrong gear range all day with the Alfine.

The poster who described a shifting front gear setup in conjunction with an ALFINE hub has a good idea to get around this issue (that I was tempted to do) BUT (a) this goes against the rationale of buying an internal gear hub in the first place (no external parts) and (b) would necessitate the installation of a chain tensioner (which in turn is easily damaged off road). Clearly the second point is less of an issue on a full sus bike as a tensioner would be required anyway. It's a good solution in terms of 'cost' but a horrible bastardisation of the purist hub concept. Assuming money is no issue, it's simply not acceptable.

Which brings me to the Rohloff. Sure - it's bloody expensive. And worth every penny. I've got about 520% gear range over 14 gears (as opposed to Alfine's 8 ) meaning I will never, ever need to think about where I'm going before hopping on the bike. I've murdered the steepest climbs on the South Downs Way on this bike and ridden home afterwards without skipping a beat. It's truly remarkable.

The Rohloff gearing has a major benefit (on a fixed rear bike) that I don't need a chain tensioner. There is NOTHING to rip off, bump, bend, break, foul, slip, seize, snap etc. I have a single front cog and single rear cog. The chain is ALWAYS in line (most efficient) and works in all conditions (I rode all thru the 2010 winter in all types of conditions). It simply takes the chain/cogs/gearset out of the equation and allows me to focus on the ride. If you break a Rohloff it's because you didn't get out of the way of the tank.

Here are some more observations:

* The Rohloff quick release system basically craps all over the Alfine 'screw' system (requiring an 8mm spanner to be added to your toolbox).

* The Rohloff gear changer (that everyone complains about as being 'cheap') is deliberately designed to be simple AND replaceable by string in the event of a cable breakage somewhere remote. The Alfine switcher has no such redundancy. I'll take ugly and repairable ANY day over pretty and unfixable.

* At the hub itself, the Rohloff has a bulletproof mechanism to translate the shifter into gear changes inside the hub. The Alfine has a piece of wire, attached to a number of externally moving parts, held together by a screw clamp on the wire. It's dodgy in it's own right, but when you factor in wheel removal and cog changes, the 'breakage potential' goes up exponentially - I'm scared every time I remove the wheel on my Alfine - imagine doing it in a muddy field and trying to find the wire clamp or clip that just fell off.

* In terms of weight, the Rohloff is heavier. It's also better. With greater gear range and far more reliability. I'd prefer to still be able to pedal a slightly heavier bike up the hill than have to walk it because I didn't have the gears.

* in terms of noise - it's a quick argument. I'd rather have ONE gear (7th) that sounds like a coffee grinder when working perfectly than ANY gear slipping, clunking, not changing etc. It's the sound of machinery working perfectly, not exposed gearsets unable to work efficiently. It's a commonly quoted 'negative' especially amongst people 'new' to Rohloff because it is very noticeable or 'different' to the chainset experience. Very quickly you just get used to it and it becomes a non issue. I guess because on a chainset that noise would mean something is breaking it concerns people.

The Alfine really is a very cheap and fragile alternative when put side by side to a Rohloff - in the long run, there is no comparison unless you are constrained by cost (and even then arguably the servicing requirement wipes out this argument as well).

Previous posters have already pointed out the service intervals for Alfine are much, much shorter (and more significant in terms of actual parts being replaced) than the Rohloff. This is a major factor for me - I hate the hassle of bike servicing. I can service the Rohloff myself every 5000 miles (or annually) by changing the oil - and I really haven't heard of any significant number of people experiencing issues, as opposed to the Alfine, which, btw, should be considered Shimano's 'beta' hub - or at least not their final model.

THAT SAID, the Alfine, for all it's shortcomings when compared to the Rohloff, will still kick the ass of cog gears in anything but the most pristine of conditions (assuming you've got the right gearing for the ride). I really do like my Alfine and have no regrets changing, but I'm obsessive about my Rohloff. I look forward to every ride and will eventually (frame permitting) upgrade my Alfine to a Rohloff as well.

TLDR: The Alfine is great. It's better than cog gears. But the Rohloff is much better, and worth the extra cash if you can afford it.