jolly Wear Union Jack skinsuit for open time trials?

SBezza

BC advise you to join a club first, so you can experience group riding. If you are going to do a road race, this is pretty essential, for your wellbeing and the wellbeing of other riders, I certainly would not want to ride in a bunch as speed, with people that have never done it.

You don't need to be in a club to road race, but the skills you can learn from being in a club are going to help out a great deal.

If you want to TT, then don't bother looking at the BC website, you need to look at the CTT website. Now you can I believe enter open TT's as a temporary member of the HQ club, but even CTT would advise joining a club. You can go along to a club evening TT and generally enter it as not being a member of that club, but as pointed out above, this is only possible due to the members of that club organising, timekeeping and marshalling

As mentioned above, even if you join a club, you don't need to go out on club rides, but you will have a alot of people that will help you out with all the questions you could even think of asking.

If you wanted to play a lot of other sports competitively, you would need to join a club, why should cycling be any different.

John.T

We seem to have gone a bit off topic but never mind.
BC is the central govening body for road racing in the UK. It does not organise events. These are done by clubs so the emphasis is on club membership. If you want to ride RRs but not join a club then the TLI or LVRC ( for vets) may be more use to you. These both publish their calender on their websites. You are still expected to put something back by helping out. Some series make it a condition of entry that you marshal at one event.
I think BC do publish a calender but are a bit slow this year.
The BC website is a bit like a maze and is not at all helpful for newcomers.
+1 to sbezza above.

Pross

The BC website is very poor, I think that is the main problem. As sbezza says above it is also best for everyone if someone new to the sport gets group riding experience before racing. Also, with time trials entries are generally accepted on best times so in order to get into a race with a full field it is useful to have some times up front and club time trials give you that opportunity. I started racing in 1990, there weren't websites from official organisations, clubs or forum like this on which to obtain advice but I can't say I found it difficult to get involved which is why I find it hard to understand people saying it is difficult now when advice is far more easy to obtain. At that time you just bought a BCF and / or RTTC handbook and it told you all the rules and regulations together with listing all national events. I'm sure these are still available even if the web has taken over as most peoples primary source of information. IMO people feel it is going to be harder to get involved than it actually is and get put off before they try. Get out there and have a go and you will soon realise that most officials (club or national organisations) are actually very friendly and helpful.

dulldave

SBezza wrote:

If you want to TT, then don't bother looking at the BC website, you need to look at the CTT website.

And here it gets more complicated. What's wrong with one organisation simply pointing you in the direction of the other?

SBezza wrote:

BC advise you to join a club first, so you can experience group riding. If you are going to do a road race, this is pretty essential, for your wellbeing and the wellbeing of other riders, I certainly would not want to ride in a bunch as speed, with people that have never done it.

So the advice is to get experience riding in groups. Not to join a club. Joining a club is just a way of getting that experience. It's this type of thing that makes it all so complicated.

Once I've figured it all out I might even just create a small website to explain it all, seeing as nobody in any of these organisations seems to be capable of it. Perhaps that would be a suitable contribution to make me worthy of taking part in a race

MikeWW

It really isn't very hard
I bought a bike, rode it for a few days, did some rides with a local club,decided to join the club and started racing-have even helped out a bit
Local cubs publicise their time trial events-anyone can race-simple

dulldave

MikeWW wrote:

It really isn't very hard
I bought a bike, rode it for a few days, did some rides with a local club,decided to join the club and started racing-have even helped out a bit
Local cubs publicise their time trial events-anyone can race-simple

There are 2 threads on the front page of this part of the forum that suggest it isn't so easy:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12671123
http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12659235

That's not including this one (I've taken this one way off topic)

I wonder how many more you'd find if you went back through previous threads? Just because you found something easy doesn't make it easy.

In fact that's probably why it isn't easy. The people who are responsible for explaining it understand it already, so they think it's fine.

dulldave

Sorry, missed this one:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12614107

Pross

There's also hundreds of threads asking what bike under £***, what wheels etc. etc. etc. This doesn't mean it's difficult to find a bike does it

The answers to all those questions is available through links on the BC website front page. All you need to do is click on road. The site layout is poor but it is all there and reasonably easy to find. The BC rules aren't overly onerous and the category system is there to ensure you can find races at your level.

Pross

In fact that's probably why it isn't easy. The people who are responsible for explaining it understand it already, so they think it's fine.

That's nonsense - the poster was just starting out so why would he have been responsible for explaining it?

John.T

Some people just like to find a problem when it is often just as easy to find a solution. If you are stuck you can always contact BC and talk to them. Go to 'how to use this site' at the top RH corner, scroll down to the bottom and there are contact details.
I am bored with this one now. Not going anywhere so 'I'm out'.

Slow1972

+1

Sorry Dave but you're living up to your name and being a bit dull in the head about all this, it really isn't as hard as you make out. I only started road biking 18 months ago and didnt really have any difficulty in finding out what was what

Half the threads on these forums about how do I do this or how do I do that are simply there because someone wants to have the answer handed to them in some simple fashion rather than sitting down and looking it up or working it out for for themselves. That doesn't mean the information isn't there or that it can't be understood, but more that people can't be ar*ed to spend the time looking it up for themselves.

dulldave

I give up too. If it's easier to believe that there's no problem, go right ahead.

sub55

Right then .
Road racers.
Join British cycling as a gold or silver member and purchase a racing licence.
Being a member of a club is advised but you can join as a private member.
When you`ve got your licence ,you will be a 4th cat, go through the bc site and find a race that you would like to do. It must be open to 4th cat riders. It will tell you on the appropiate page if it is. Download the entry form ,fill it in ,put nil in the previous performance boxes and send it to the organiser with a cheque to cover the race fees. This to arrive before the closing date, normally 3 weeks.
Approx a week before the event you will recieve a start sheet. This will tell you exactly where and when , what the prize money is and everything else you need to know for the day. Turn up and take part.
TIME TRIALS.
Join a club ,it is compulsory . Buy a handbook ,find on the ctt site , decide what you want to ride ,download the entry form off the ctt site, fill it in , nil for previous performances. Send it to organiser with a cheque ,payable to the promoting club ,to arrive no later than 14 days prior to the event. You will recieve a start sheet through the post ,telling you everything you need to know.
Now that is extremely simplistic but essentially thats all you need to know. It really isnt differcult.
In my experience the main reason for people making excuses is more down to a fear of being left wanting.

MikeWW

dulldave wrote:

I give up too. If it's easier to believe that there's no problem, go right ahead.

Think it is a state of mind thing-lot easier if you are positive

In October I fancied a go at cyclocross racing-didn't have a bike,didn't know where to do it etc
By Nov 8th I was racing in my first event having found a bike for £125(minus a back wheel) and having a great time. Posted in a few places to find a bike, googled to find a local race which took me to British Cycles, from the calendar it said entry on the day accepted-so just turned up. Paid some money,stuck a number on,lined up and pedalled as hard as f*ck for 40 mins

Tom Butcher

dulldave wrote:

To be fair, I think pedantic bureacraucy is a bit harsh and the rest of that was just me agreeing with what someone else said. I've re-read that post and I now see that the poster was having a go at organisers and I'm not in a position to be miffed with them yet

Let me clarify.

My issue is really about how difficult it all is. If you go to the BC website to find out how to race they just tell you to join a club. Some of us aren't really club people so I don't think this is a very helpful approach.

It was quite a while before someone explained all the categories stuff and how it all worked. I'm still not certain about what all the classification stuff is about. Then there's finding events. The BC calendar is showing 0 results for events in Scotland. I know they exist but the details of them are often impossible to find on the internet.

I find the notion that I can't ride wearing a top with large logos a nonsense. Funnily enough it's fine if I give BC a wod of cash for the privilege first.

My only gripe with event organisers is that often impossible to find their events on the internet.

For a beginner, it really isn't easy to start racing. I've had to have a lot of things explained to me in person before I understood half of it. I'm still not that sure but having spent this year hearing about specific races through other people, I at least now know of some that will take place this year.

I'll give that a bash and let you know how I get on.

As a novice road racer you'd start at 4th cat and be allowed to wear any normal cycling top to race in and BC have made a number of changes to make it cheaper to get started in racing. For example GoRace events, easier to get a day licence etc Ironically this does complicate things a bit as you have to wade through the regulations to find which races you can race without a licence etc. Also the rules are universal - but for lower category races are often overlooked - for example some regs on what wheels you can use, shoe cover regs etc. Again this may seem to complicate things but it's probably easier than having different sets of rules for each level of racing. In practice it's a lot simpler than it looks.

grantus

CTT isn't applicable in Scotland.

TTs will be listed on the BC website for Scotland as well but you won't see many for England and Wales on BC because the CTT deal with it.

You can ride TTs in Scotland unattached, as long as you have BC Silver membership or above. I also believe CTC membership gives you the necessary third party insurance to ride TTs without the need for a day licence.

There is also the SVTTA (Scottish Veteran TT Assoc) who do a heck of a lot of good events in Scotland. In fact, a large percentage of the fastest riders up here are 40+ (basterts!) I've got a few years left before I join them and bring the average speed down a bit

I agree with Dave about the calendar though - it's not up on BC yet for Scotland - although there is an Excel shorthand version available from the SCU website.

Hopefully things will be better with the SCU compared to last year - the 2009 yearbook got posted to me in June :roll: and the results for the Super6 series of road races took about 2 or 3 months to be confirmed :?: I don't think there is anything wrong in criticising BC or SCU as they are paid by cyclists however I have a little bit of experience in knowing how hard it is for volunteers trying to put on events but the problems with these tend to be from selfish people who are already in your club, not people like DullDave who is just putting some questions out there - it didn't seem to me like he was having a go at clubs.

grantus

Anyway, on his original point about logos - I see his point - it does seem a bit hypocritical that you can have whatever you like emblazoned across your shirt if your club has paid a levy however it is possible you could be told to turn, for example, a campagnolo shirt inside out because it is advertising.

On the other hand i'm pretty sure there aren't that many awkward commissaires who would actually enforce it?

nolf

A very interesting thread, for a while I've been thinking about how cycling could be changed to make it more accessible to a bigger market.

As someone who has been riding for 5 years, and been very active in running a club for 2 and half of those years, I have sympathies with both the organisers and the newbies who get lost in red tape.

But I'd say BC and CTT are different. I've generally come across a lot more open and flexible attitude at BC.
Website needs some work, and TLI and BC should learn from each other, How do TLI's manage to be so cheap for example?

But for CTT:
Why does CTT insist on club membership. I could understand if to race you had to be, but even BC doesn't ask for that, why to Time Trial for 25 miles up a dual carriageway do you have to be a club member?!?!
And the idea of enforcing the no logos by making someone wear a skinsuit inside out, How stupid is that? Tell him not to wear it again but let him wear. FFS.
I turned up to my first BC race in CSC team kit and everyone was fine with that.

Sure I appreciate the work the organisers in CTT put in, but the silly organisational rules and regs are OTT. Like when Wiggo got done for riding with Zipp 1080's as they were too deep. FFS, who cares? Update your rulebook guys.

These guys do a lot of work, but some new ideas are really needed. I am not someone just complaining, I have tried organising a road race, time trial and other events. They're a lot of work!

sub55

nolf

Must say , i come from a time trialing background that is and always has been my passion. but i`ve also ridden an awful lot of road races over the years. on that basis , i will fundamently disagree with you. the ctt is dead easy too deal with , their technical regs are reletively straight forward and every effort is made to have them as simple and uncomplicated as possible. althouh the wording can sometimes sound complicated . this is purely because they need to be tight in order for there to be no loop holes.

bc on the otherhand ,i find extremely differcult to deal with. the further you dig into their technical regs the more complex it gets. they then just seem to ignore the bits they want too. the whole licence system is expensive, which i`m sure puts many people off.
remember the ctt is nearly entirely an amature organisation that is run by enthusiasts , where as bc is a largely proffessional organisation that recieves millions of pounds in government funding, i would ask you how much of that filters down to the ordinary sunday morning racer?
in answer to your 2 comments from above,
ctt require club membership,
this is because the company is owned by its clubs. if you want to be involved in its activities ,you need to be a member of one of its clubs. insurance is arranged for all club members in all ctt events , (cheap).
bc, is a company owned by individual members and each member is responsible for his own insurance, (expensive).
as for wiggins and his 1080 front wheel , the wheel is against the rules , the rule is there on safety grounds . he was told prior to starting that he could not use that wheel ,he was offered a lend of an adequate replacement ,which he declined and started anyway . so he was dq`d, what do you expect to happen in these circumstances? if you break the rules ,your out. otherwise you`d have riders cheating as a matter of course. it would then all mean nothing.

SBezza

BC clothing rules are not so great either. Say you have an old style club strip, you can't wear this you have to wear the latest registered strip, in TT's you can wear any version.

So there are stupid rules if you like in all areas. The best for inclusiveness is CX, you can wear anything, and enter on the day.

redddraggon

nolf wrote:

Sure I appreciate the work the organisers in CTT put in, but the silly organisational rules and regs are OTT. Like when Wiggo got done for riding with Zipp 1080's as they were too deep. FFS, who cares? Update your rulebook guys.

I reckon it's not a bad rule TBH.

1080 front + n00b with more money than bike handling skills + dual carriageway + gust of wind + traffic = disaster

Granted BW can probably handle his 1080 in the conditions and bet many other riders could, but not everyone can, and not everyone would be sensible enough to ride what they can handle.

nolf

In the other thread I've started I want this kind of stuff to come out.

I think a simplification of rules and regs would be good. A lot more flexible attitude would be good too.

Sub55 I completely agree with your points about BC, where does this millions of pounds go?
I haven't got any new cycle facilities, or a more focused management team at BC, or cheaper entry fees.
I'm still paying £15 for a crit race on a closed circuit as a silver member, when the TLI can charge me only £10 for a road race on open roads, when I'm not even a TLI member!
How does that work?

I think trying to get these ideas together so we can build an idea of whats wrong, and how it can be fixed would be really great.

Please use the other thread to post new ideas. Don't just shoot down others ideas, but come up with a viable alternative.

I don't think many people are completely happy with the current system, so how can we change it? Get some blue sky thinking in.

blackhands

Government funding to BC is for its Olympic and lower development programmes and as it's hypothecated cannot be used for anything else.

All other services including insurances, coaching scheme, running a website, membership services, printing handbooks etc comes from the membership in the way of annual subs, club subs, race levies and so on.

dulldave

nolf wrote:

Get some blue sky thinking in.

Oh dear.

Aggieboy

dulldave wrote:

nolf wrote:

Get some blue sky thinking in.

Oh dear.

GiantMike

SBezza wrote:

The best for inclusiveness is CX, you can wear anything, and enter on the day.

It's bloody great CX. I can't be bothered with all the TT crap when CX is so much more fun and so much easier to get into, particularly at short notice. I was sent on a course to Oxford at really short notice and competed in a Wessex League CX race 2 days later. No fuss, so stupid rules. Simple and rewarding.