booze

markwalker

disgruntledgoat wrote:

IPlus, your body won't burn fat while there is alcohol in your system. I don't think you're hindering your training, but that's worth bearing in mind.

Is that really true? it would explain a few things

disgruntledgoat

markwalker wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

IPlus, your body won't burn fat while there is alcohol in your system. I don't think you're hindering your training, but that's worth bearing in mind.

Is that really true? it would explain a few things

Like why you're always hungry after a few?

I was told that your liver processes both toxins and converts fat to energy for the body to use. But it will always remove toxins from your system first adn as such, whilst there is alcohol in you, no fat burning!

huuregeil

markwalker wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

IPlus, your body won't burn fat while there is alcohol in your system. I don't think you're hindering your training, but that's worth bearing in mind.

Is that really true? it would explain a few things

I'm not sure on the details, but I certainly know that alcohol messes with your hormone levels and fat metabolism. Alcohol and weight loss is a triple whammy: extra calories, increased appetite, poor fat metabolism.

bahzob

huuregeil wrote:

markwalker wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

IPlus, your body won't burn fat while there is alcohol in your system. I don't think you're hindering your training, but that's worth bearing in mind.

Is that really true? it would explain a few things

I'm not sure on the details, but I certainly know that alcohol messes with your hormone levels and fat metabolism. Alcohol and weight loss is a triple whammy: extra calories, increased appetite, poor fat metabolism.

Maybe. Didnt stop me doing pretty well this year, better than most other contributors to this thread I'd be willing to bet. It 's also one of life's great pleasures.

markwalker

huuregeil wrote:

markwalker wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

IPlus, your body won't burn fat while there is alcohol in your system. I don't think you're hindering your training, but that's worth bearing in mind.

Is that really true? it would explain a few things

I'm not sure on the details, but I certainly know that alcohol messes with your hormone levels and fat metabolism. Alcohol and weight loss is a triple whammy: extra calories, increased appetite, poor fat metabolism.

hmmm its worse for me im also a diet coke drinker, and whilst there are no or very few calories in the stuff it too stimulates appetite and reduces metabolism.

Hills are not my thing

huuregeil

bahzob wrote:

Maybe. Didnt stop me doing pretty well this year, better than most other contributors to this thread I'd be willing to bet. It 's also one of life's great pleasures.

That may as well be but it's like saying, "Eating caviar for breakfast every day didn't stop me getting richer than most other people..." :-)

Personal choice is one thing; facts are another. While alcohol has it's place in the world (and I speak as a longstanding CAMRA member and owner of more bottle of wine than there are days in the month!), it's most certainly not a performance enhancer, quite the opposite. Kicking the booze for a period of time is the easiest (depending on your level of dependency!) performance boost you can make.

bahzob

huuregeil wrote:

Personal choice is one thing; facts are another. .... Kicking the booze for a period of time is the easiest (depending on your level of dependency!) performance boost you can make.

If only things were this simple. Saying something's a fact doesnt make it so.

Fact is in fact that training is best if you take a balanced approach including as many dimensions as possible. Alcohol is just one of those.

Fact is also that by adopting a sensible approach but one that allowed me to drink as much as I chose I
- weighed lowest this year since I was 18
- put in performances that were, I'd bet, be better than most others contributing here

Your approach is just too simplistic. Take right now. It takes a pretty dedicated frame of mind to go out training over winter when the weathers crap. It takes an even more dedicated one to do this and give up drink at the same time. Wouldnt work for me. If I'd have tried this I'd just fail at both (as would most others I'd suggest)

What does work is going out for a ride and then rewarding myself with a couple of pints in the pub after.

SBezza

bahzob wrote:

It takes a pretty dedicated frame of mind to go out training over winter when the weathers crap. It takes an even more dedicated one to do this and give up drink at the same time.

LOL this is me, though I will admit it is more down to being on call alot for work, so might have to drive within an hour's notice. Hence I hardly ever drink these days, and I don't really miss it, just another form of fluids in my eyes, and there are better things around.

huuregeil

bahzob,

I think you misunderstood what I meant. It's psychology vs physiology.

Physiology - booze is a clear negative. Anyone that argues otherwise is deluding themselves :-)

Psychology - booze can be a positive or negative. Although I think it's far more a negative than people believe.

Personal choice is how you balance the two. "Beer allows me to train", while maybe true, strikes me as not particularly ideal. That's not a personal criticism, just an observation. For me it's the complete opposite - training keeps me out of the pub!

nax-ian

How can anyone stop drinkin at this time of year I've already been to 3 parties, an now we've got pre-xmas drinks, xmas itself then bl**dy New Year!!
I,m just gonna succumb to it all an go on the lash for a coupla weeks!!
Like somebody already said we amateurs can take it all a bit serious.

Although, I did abstain completely twice this year (6 weeks and 5 weeks ) and dropped 4 kilos both times, now that HAS to be a performance boost.

We are allowed to enjoy ourselves aren't we ?

mclarent

Nax-ian wrote:

How can anyone stop drinkin at this time of year ?

Try having kids :shock:

Cheshley

mclarent wrote:

Nax-ian wrote:

How can anyone stop drinkin at this time of year ?

Try having kids :shock:

+1 Ours is 19 weeks old

mclarent

Cheshley wrote:

mclarent wrote:

Nax-ian wrote:

How can anyone stop drinkin at this time of year ?

Try having kids :shock:

+1 Ours is 19 weeks old

Congratulations! Welcome to the treadmill - you can think about getting off in 2027...

bahzob

huuregeil wrote:

bahzob,

I think you misunderstood what I meant. It's psychology vs physiology.

Physiology - booze is a clear negative. Anyone that argues otherwise is deluding themselves :-)

Psychology - booze can be a positive or negative. Although I think it's far more a negative than people believe.
....

I must be deluding myself then (maybe its the drink) because its not at all obvious to me that booze is a clear negative.

How exactly is it a negative?
- Calories? I think I've proved to my own satisfaction that you can continue to drink, lose weight and compete at a high level. Calories from drink are just calories, just a unit of energy, no better or worse than calories from a packet of crisps if properly managed.
- Damage to the body? I believe, contrary to smoking, it accepted that drinking in moderation is not harmful. Indeed it may well be good for you. Whatever its not as simplistic as you would like it.

Of course people may have a view that alcohol is just inherently a bad thing. You seem to be one of them. Fine, but its just an opinion.

Si C

Well I haven't had an evening drink for 3 days. I think that's enough abstaining for now....out tonight to the pub with my chain gang buddies... after a double hit of turbo

huuregeil

bahzob,

Of course people may have a view that alcohol is just inherently a bad thing. You seem to be one of them.

You've presumed wrong. As I said, I'm a long standing CAMRA member and, having lived in various wine growing regions in Europe, I'm really into my wine.

Having got that out of the way, the key adverse physiological responses to alcohol in relation to cycling are:

- Increased cortisol levels
- Lower testosterone levels
- Dehydration
- Reduced glycogen storage

Of these, dehydration can be managed, but the effects of cortisol and testosterone level changes are simply to massively slow down recovery times and muscle regeneration. Further, increased cortisol affects sleep and the amount of rest you can get, plus supresses immune system function, leaving you more open to catching bugs and putting dents in your training. Have a google if you don't believe me, there is quite a lot of science on this.

In short, it's not about calories, alcohol has some quite big impacts on your training, and particularly your recovery from training. There are simply no positives for cycling from a physiological perspective!

tomb8555

I find that having had a drink won't affect performance (apart from dehydration/hangover the next day if overdoing it) but will affect recovery.

If I do a hard session, then have a heavy night out, I find the next day that my legs haven't recovered at all, and the recovery doesn't start until the drink has worn off.

bahzob

huuregeil wrote:

bahzob,

Of course people may have a view that alcohol is just inherently a bad thing. You seem to be one of them.

You've presumed wrong. As I said, I'm a long standing CAMRA member and, having lived in various wine growing regions in Europe, I'm really into my wine.

Just being a member of an organisation doesnt prove a thing. Tony Blair is a member of the Labour party, doesnt mean he's a socialist.

You list a number of scary sounding disadvantages to drinking. Please provide references for them, particularly showing the amount of alcohol consumed.

(sorry the fact that it appears somewhere on a google search doesnt count. Unless you also happen to believe in UFOs and the fact that Elvis is alive and well and serving in Tescos at Tipton)

amaferanga

bahzob wrote:

huuregeil wrote:

bahzob,

Of course people may have a view that alcohol is just inherently a bad thing. You seem to be one of them.

You've presumed wrong. As I said, I'm a long standing CAMRA member and, having lived in various wine growing regions in Europe, I'm really into my wine.

Just being a member of an organisation doesnt prove a thing. Tony Blair is a member of the Labour party, doesnt mean he's a socialist.

You list a number of scary sounding disadvantages to drinking. Please provide references for them, particularly showing the amount of alcohol consumed.

(sorry the fact that it appears somewhere on a google search doesnt count. Unless you also happen to believe in UFOs and the fact that Elvis is alive and well and serving in Tescos at Tipton)

He didn't say there was any good science, only Google science

bahzob

huuregeil wrote:

bahzob,

Of course people may have a view that alcohol is just inherently a bad thing. You seem to be one of them.

Of these, dehydration can be managed, but the effects of cortisol and testosterone level changes are simply to massively slow down recovery times and muscle regeneration. Further, increased cortisol affects sleep and the amount of rest you can get, plus supresses immune system function, leaving you more open to catching bugs and putting dents in your training.

Of course if you think it then it will probably happen. Thats why I'm so vociferous in taking the other side on this because I think you are just scare mongering based on prejudice and some google searches. And its possible some people may believe you and worry needlessly as a result.

I dont believe it. To the contrary I think that training to cycle at a high level is dam hard and requires focus. Worrying about your drinking when its within guideline level only risks distracting this focus and subsequent failure.

I especially LOL at your panic at all the negative effects above. It certainly doesnt apply to me and I'm pretty confident I do a lot more training, do more in terms of events and am more successful than you. (this year I started road racing in January and didnt let up until end September taking in several multi-day stage events, top 200 Etape, new club records 100m and 12hr TT and doing the LEL along the way. All happily fueled by whatever local brew was on offer.)

And as for colds, well despite my very high training load, sharing house with children and frequent commuting/air travel I haven't had anything other than a couple of 1 day colds since 2006 **

Just to remind you OP was "I'm pretty dedicated to my cycling and goals for next year...started a structured training plan in October and have yet to miss a ride or turbo session. Things are working, I can see the distant glimmer of improvements, and I certainly do not have a weight issue....trouble is a like a tipple in the evening, infact it's become every evening...a glass or two of red or maybe a large JD and coke.

I'm I hampering my training progress? or worrying over nothing."

Clear example of someone starting to get right focus risking getting distracted by worriers.

To them and all I'd say its not what you drink* but how you think that matters.

* Provided not to excess often (once in a while doesnt matter)

huuregeil

bahzob,

You're very touchy about this - it isn't personal, and there's certainly no scare mongering. As I said, there are physiological negatives, and both psychological positives and negatives, and it's down to personal choice how to balance the two.

You haven't criticised the core of what I'm saying, you're simply criticising me for saying it, with the sassumption that this will damage the training of the ignorant masses, based on their psychological reaction to knowledge :-)

Via scholar.google.com (the first port of call for many research scientists!):

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.scispo.2004.05.003
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jsams.2008.12.627
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/3/983
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.alcohol.2006.05.001

Socrates chain smoked. This n=1 observation shouldn't lead you to conclude that either smoking is not detrimental to athletic performance, or that Socrates's physiological makeup was such that he was immue to its effects.

On a practical note, I think you'll find it next to impossible to find a coach who would advocate an athelete drink in the run up to a major event.

Regards,

bahzob

Getting back to OP question was basically "I've started training seriously, does that mean I need to stop drinking?" to which the answer remains no, not if you drink sensibly.

Which brings me to the studies you cite. Here's what I believe they actually say (sure you will correct me if I've got it wrong):
1 - Says rehydration is important for recovery after exercise. And that drink especially stronger than 4% is a diuretic. Neither or these statement is exactly a surprise.
However: while rehydration is important its only a serious recovery issue if you have consecutive strenuous efforts. So yes if you are on a stage race don't go to the pub and get smashed after the end of day 1. However if you are in winter training and do what most would do (during and at end of exercise drink water/sports drink regularly and often) then if you go and have a couple of pints after showering/getting changed it really doesn't matter. (The study itself notes that drink of 1-2% has no impact.)

2 - The amount of alcohol used in this experiment was 1g/kg bodyweight. I weigh 70kg (which makes me a lightweight) so would have had 70g alcohol. The daily max guideline is 20g so this is 3.5 times greater than that and the same as drinking a full bottle of wine. So it says similar to above if you want to recover after a hard exercise session its better not to get smashed straight away. Not really a surprise. It says nothing about the effect of moderate and sensible practice

3 - The amount of alcohol used was even more extreme than 2. 1.5g/kg. So it found that if you drink a bottle and a half of wine a day instead of food its going to have an impact how the liver stores glycogen. Again not exactly a surprise. The liver prioritises alcohol processing so of course if you smash it with this amount of alcohol its going to throw up its hands and give in regarding its normal working. Given the amount of alcohol consumed in fact its surprising the conclusions were not more clear cut as they admit the "direct effect on glycogen synthesis is unclear". Given its unclear if you drink the equivalent of a bottle and a half of wine a day its probably quite safe to assume that drinking just a glass and a half is probably pretty safe.

4 - Is not a direct link to an abstract I think?

Happy to admit I'm touchy. It's because I think life's for enjoying rather than constantly worrying about the risks of this that or the next thing is going to harm us.
However this is sometimes made difficult due to the amount of information about that can be misleading.

Studies above are text book example of that. To get observable results the experimenters in 2 & 3 used volumes of alcohol that would be considered dangerous. (typically this is to make the experiments easy to conduct quickly and publish rather than for good scientific reasons)

The headline is "alcohol ruins exercise!" However a more accurate one would be "getting hammered straight after or before exercise might not be a good idea!"

The problem with studies like this is that people might assume that because drinking to excess is an issue it must follow that drinking sensibly is as well. This does not follow. Indeed the evidence from study 1 above is contrary since it noted no effect at low alcohol levels.

bahzob

Just regarding the other couple of points

"Socrates chain smoked. This n=1 observation shouldn't lead you to conclude that either smoking is not detrimental to athletic performance, or that Socrates's physiological makeup was such that he was immue to its effects."
- Yes I know cause and effect are complicated. That's part of my point above, just because getting smashed/exercising is not a good combination does not lead to a conclusion that moderate drinking will have a demonstrable effect. It's even more complicated with alcohol as there is contrary evidence that while all agree high levels are bad, low levels may in fact be beneficial.


On a practical note, I think you'll find it next to impossible to find a coach who would advocate an athelete drink in the run up to a major event.
- I agree. A good coach would work with the athlete to identify the specific variables with direct links to their performance and work on those. Other variables are best left alone and my point is drink would be one of these. There would of course be exceptions if alcohol is seen as a blocker (e.g. if needing to lose weight some might prefer to cut out alcohol instead of chocolate).

As it happens your mention of Socrates proves the point, I remember watching him play (I assume you mean the footballer not the philosopher?)

His Wiki intro reads:
"Sócrates Brasileiro Sampaio de Souza Vieira de Oliveira (born February 19, 1954 in Belém do Pará, Brazil), more commonly known simply as Sócrates, is a former Brazilian footballer. He was an excellent assister and team organiser, with great through passes and vision of the field. He was also a two-footed player and a prolific goal scorer. His ability to read the game was highly valued, and his signature move was the blind heel pass."

His strengths were as a leader and play maker. While no doubt fit he was not a workhorse in the mould of Kevin Keegan et al.

If he had tried to give up smoking (and drinking since he was also a heavy drinker) it might have made him run a bit quicker but he probably reasoned why bother if it risked affecting his true skills which were vision and leadership.

I note he now practices sports medicine. I wonder what his views on booze and training are? (He might be the coach who does advocate drink LOL)

bahzob

PS thanks again for the reminder about Socrates. This shows him at his sublime effortless best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6IPlJ2ivqo

afraid not highest picture quality but if you look closely I think you can see the dog-end he's got in his right hand and the hip flask in the back pocket

DaveyL

bahzob wrote:

PS thanks again for the reminder about Socrates. This shows him at his sublime effortless best

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6IPlJ2ivqo

afraid not highest picture quality but if you look closely I think you can see the dog-end he's got in his right hand and the hip flask in the back pocket

Hope you're not looking for an invitation back to the Etape Caledonia after posting that!

Mark Alexander

Is it easier to drink less if you're not single? Surely family life can make it easier to drink less. I'm single (helloo Ladies 8) ) and find i'm out a few times a week. I doubt that I would if I were married. I would not miss drinking.

Oh yes, Wine IS an essential cooking utensil

bahzob

Mark Alexander wrote:

Is it easier to drink less if you're not single? Surely family life can make it easier to drink less. I'm single (helloo Ladies 8) ) and find i'm out a few times a week. I doubt that I would if I were married. I would not miss drinking.

Oh yes, Wine IS an essential cooking utensil

Think it depends on the family. Especially the mother in law.

bahzob

DaveyL wrote:

Hope you're not looking for an invitation back to the Etape Caledonia after posting that!

I hope to return. Being one of the lucky few who didnt puncture my only direct disappointment about the whole weekend was that post event I did a warm down walk to the Blair Athol distillery only to find it was shut, which put paid to my recovery drinking plans. So missed on tour there which I plan to rectify next time.

bahzob

It occurred to me over a glass of wine last night that this study (cited above) is more interesting for what it didnt find than what it did.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/3/983

What it found was, unsurprisingly, is that if you replace carbohydrate calories with the equivalent in calories of drinking a bottle and a half of wine then your glycogen replenishment post exercise will be affected.

Strangely it also found that if you simply drank a bottle and a half of wine on top of a normal carbohydrate intake there was no effect on glycogen recovery 24 hours later. (there was a small impact after 8 hours)

Utterly irrelevant to the OP of course, since anyone drinking a bottle and half of wine every day is in need of recovery of a different type.

But counter intuitive nonetheless. A possible reason might be the fact that the study was conducted in Australia so the experiment's subjects were already used to high alcohol volumes.