Lateral knee displacement

Bhima

I've just realized that my left knee is a lot closer to the top tube than the right when pedalling. :? It's more pronounced at higher RPMs and almost disappears when pedalling at low cadences (<90 RPM) if on a reasonably big gear.

Is this normal? Should I try to "fix" this, or is it not worth thinking about?

By the way, I have no form of knee/leg/joint discomfort and it's not a cleat issue as it also happens when i'm riding in my casual shoes, not clipped in.

I can post a video if necessary, once I can find the battery for it.

huuregeil

How's your pelvic stability? Try this: do a one legged squat on each leg in front of the mirror. Impossible? Hard? Easy? Any differences left to right? Does either knee "wander" or drift inwards on the way down?

Bhima

Ok:

Squatting normally (both legs) is fine.

Squatting on my right leg is easy and the knee stays in the same place, except for moving up and down.

Squatting on my left leg is slightly harder to do if I want to keep the knee straight like my right one. I can do it, but it takes a bit more effort.

I can perfectly squat with my right leg effortlessly, but if I try the same thing with my left, it starts to wobble side to side about 50% of the way down.

So what does this mean?

One side weaker than the other?

huuregeil

Yes, specifically your glutes, and this could well be the source of your knee movement. Strong glutes are good things to have anyway (in terms of keeping your knee, hips, and lower back in shape) so no harm training them a bit. One legged squats and one legged deadlifts are your friends :-)

Bhima

Right. Thanks for your help.

I've just got in from a ride and have done a lot of stretching, especially the glute one mentioned here: [LINK]

There's actually a slight improvement, although both legs feel weaker when i'm doing the squats, as they're obviously fatigued from the ride. I'll try some squats later when I feel a bit better.

huuregeil

If you're going to do something serious about it:

- target two high quality sessions a week, not directly before or after a ride (warm up or recovery ride excepted) for something like 6-8 weeks.
- focus on good form. Really important, particularly in the deadlift. Seek some help if oyu don't know what you're doing. There are a couple of good internet references on the one leg deadlift especially, i'll see if I can post them later.
- stretch your hip flexors

There are various other easier exercises you can do too: clam-shells, hip hitches, single leg sideways raises (aka Jane Fondas), bridges with one or two legs. All good stuff!

shockedsoshocked

I had a similar issue. Basically the tracking on my right knee was poor, but over the course of a month or so I've ironed that out with a help of a strength and conditioning coach. Apparently cyclists are notorious for having imbalances and lack of flexibility. When I went for my first screening the guy said he could have not bothered and simply written down all the typical cyclist problems.

I think you mentioned you go to a gym before? See if you can get someone to take you through the squats/deadlifts etc. A screening for flexibility would probably benefit you quite a bit too (if it's free like, don't pay for it!) You may think you're squatting etc correctly, when in fact you're not, and having someone who knows their stuff will give you a much better idea of where you are instead of attempting to watch yourself. Other issues might crop up too. For instance with me it turns out my glutes are quite lazy, and would much rather let my hamstrings and lower back do everything

As huuregeil says though, stretching is always good. Glutes, hams, quads, hip flexors, ankles. There's plenty of stuff on the net, especially youtube,

I'd also suggest if you're finding one legged squats easy, you aint doing em right!

ride_whenever

hip flexors are the key here... I know i go on about them a lot, but basically 90% of people have rubbish hip flexor flexibility. This deactivates the glutes and causes these instabilities. Get someone to do the Thomas test on you and go from there, stretching the three hip flexors and re-conditioning your brain to fire the glutes properly will get you along way to sorting out the wobble.

BTW, when you're doing your 1-legged squats, were you getting your bum to your heel?

shockedsoshocked

ride_whenever wrote:

BTW, when you're doing your 1-legged squats, were you getting your bum to your heel?

Now that would be something to behold!

Garry H

ride_whenever wrote:

BTW, when you're doing your 1-legged squats, were you getting your bum to your heel?

I was advised against that...

hopper1

ride_whenever wrote:

hip flexors are the key here... I know i go on about them a lot, but basically 90% of people have rubbish hip flexor flexibility. This deactivates the glutes and causes these instabilities. Get someone to do the Thomas test on you and go from there, stretching the three hip flexors and re-conditioning your brain to fire the glutes properly will get you along way to sorting out the wobble.

BTW, when you're doing your 1-legged squats, were you getting your bum to your heel?

What should the other person be doing to my 'Thomas'?
Should I get my partner to help, or is it more exciting doing it with a stranger (female)?
Will I get into trouble? :oops:

Bhima

Again, thanks for all the info!

I've just been thinking - if I forced my knee into the right position when cycling, would it put the necessary stress on the weakened muscles to force them to adapt and rebalance? Riding with no hands on my rollers to put more stress on my lower body/core while trying to get my knees symmetrical, I can actually feel the imblance! :shock: I can feel a lot of stress around my glute/lower back/lower stomach area while riding with no hands, but it's considerably more on the weakened side when trying to compensate with my knee.

What about one-leg pedalling sessions? I've always been skeptical of these because they seem to be a waste of time, but I tried them on the rollers last night and realized that above a certain gear/resistance level I actually can't do them with my left leg, whereas my right leg can do them easily!

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

I think you mentioned you go to a gym before? See if you can get someone to take you through the squats/deadlifts etc. A screening for flexibility would probably benefit you quite a bit too (if it's free like, don't pay for it!) You may think you're squatting etc correctly, when in fact you're not, and having someone who knows their stuff will give you a much better idea of where you are instead of attempting to watch yourself.

As huuregeil says though, stretching is always good. Glutes, hams, quads, hip flexors, ankles. There's plenty of stuff on the net, especially youtube,

Well, firstly, I don't have a gym membership anymore. I've tried doing squats in slightly different err... ways and it becomes immediately obvious that you can target different muscle groups by changing your technique etc... Luckily, I know someone who used to work in a gym but, until I can speak to them about it, I'm going to experiment a bit.

As for the streching, I do loads all the time. I feel quite flexible on the bike and don't really have any issues with actual pain associated with poor flexibility. I think i'll up the ammount I do though as you can't do too much...

The squats were nowhere near as low as getting to my heel! I feel like i'd fall over if I went lower!

ride_whenever - i'll look into targetting my hips a bit more, but after a long ride, I certainly don't feel like my glutes have been "deactivated" at all as they're sometimes really fatigued from hours of intense seated climbing. Not sure what the Thomas test is, but i'll get googling in a second...

Slow1972

maybe you're just knock kneed?

I think I'd want to get some proper advice on why your legs are out of position before forcing my legs out of their natural position under heavy load in training. Isn't there a risk you solve one perceived problem (it doesnt actually cause you any problem does it?) and replace it with a real one... PAIN?

Bhima

Slow1972 wrote:

Isn't there a risk you solve one perceived problem (it doesnt actually cause you any problem does it?) and replace it with a real one... PAIN?

Well, exactly. There's no actual problem as I see it. It's just that my legs look unsymmetrical. Perhaps me forcing them to look "normal" was what was causing the sensation of a muscle imbalance when I was on the rollers...?

I used to percieve a power imbalance and ended up messing about with cleats, which solved the problem. These days, power output feels equal across both legs but i've got a feeling that the cleat position change may have caused this other problem over time.

Hmm...

ride_whenever

Right, the thomas test is much more fun naked with a partner of your choice, but basically it involves identifying which hip flexors are tight. If you don't specifically do anything to target them, and you cycle then you almost certainly will have a tightness there. The glute deactivation means the contraction isn't really there, you don't notice it really, but it does load your hamstrings and lower back a lot more.

As for 1-legged squads, i've seen rowers do them down to their heel with a 20kg squat bar, now that is impressive!

huuregeil

Don't get too complex!!!

One legged cycling is good, period. It really smooths out your pedal stroke and kicks your hip flexors and hamstrings into action. Do some till you're smooth and equal in both legs. Don't analyse further!

One legged squats and deads are good, period. Do 1-leg squats until they're smooth and even on both sides, don't get too hung with them. Do 1-leg deads until you're even on both sides. 6-8 weeks of 2 sessions a week is going to get you a very good start and you probably won't need or want to do any more. Don't analyse further!

If you don't know what you're doing, get advice and don't experiment cos you'll get injured and hacked off. If you want, throw a few other glute exercises into the mix - bridges are good to start the session cos they fire your glutes up (imagine picking up a £10 note as you start :-) ) and also stretch your hip flexors.

The goal is simply to do some simple things to address strength and/or flexibility imbalances around the hip. It doesn't take much! Two exercises, done properly, with stretching, are all you need.

ride_whenever is spot on about glutes and hip flexors!

ride_whenever

If you are going to do lots of 1-legged stuff, particularly the cycling, so a lot of stretching afterwards, otherwise you can exacerbate the situation. This is currently my pet subject as I went to a 4 hours hip flexor, glutes and rowing seminar a couple of weeks ago.

huuregeil

ride_whenever wrote:

If you are going to do lots of 1-legged stuff, particularly the cycling, so a lot of stretching afterwards, otherwise you can exacerbate the situation. This is currently my pet subject as I went to a 4 hours hip flexor, glutes and rowing seminar a couple of weeks ago.

Can you expand? I mean I know to stretch after intensive workouts like that, but in what way can not stretching do damage? Just curious!

Thanks,

moolarb

I've got a similar problem. Could cleat position be playing a part? I've read that our legs, feet etc are usually different so setting up cleats the same on each shoe is not recommended - they should be set up individually. Thoughts?