Simeoni/Lance footage

Art Vandelay

Is there any footage available of the infamous incident when Armstrong chased down a breakaway which Simeoni had joined during stage 18 of the 2004 Tour de France? Also, is there any footage of Simeoni breaking from the peloton in the final stage of the same Tour?
Nothing forthcoming on Youtube. Does it feature at all in the Official Tour 2004 video?

markwalker

armstrongs had all records deletd becasue it didnt happen

OK?

Art Vandelay

armstrong had all records deleted

Like Dennis Quaid's character in the Big Easy?

andyp

Armstrong has footage which showed it didn't happen, but he won't share it. Funny that.

frenchfighter

I've seen footage somewhere on youtube...maybe try watching highlights of that stage.



This is quite an interesting article:
http://www.velonews.com/article/84930

disgruntledgoat

You will note how they're "never more than ten bike lengths in front of the peloton" in the above photo

DaveyL

I think it's "Why are you wearing arm-warmers ya big puff? Take them off or get back to the peloton!"

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

I think it's "Why are you wearing arm-warmers ya big puff? Take them off or get back to the peloton!"

P*ss off i am wearing arm warmers to hide the needle marks

dave_1

andyp wrote:

Armstrong has footage which showed it didn't happen, but he won't share it. Funny that.

having problems logging in are we?

calvjones

Moray Gub wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

I think it's "Why are you wearing arm-warmers ya big puff? Take them off or get back to the peloton!"

P*ss off i am wearing arm warmers to hide the needle marks

Yep, thar's why Lance is wearing shorts

PBo

disgruntledgoat wrote:

You will note how they're "never more than ten bike lengths in front of the peloton" in the above photo

please forgive my ignorance....but i don't understand.

my guess is that lance used that to justify his unusual behaviour (unusual for the yellow jersey i mean)- trying to make it sound like no big deal?

afx237vi

PBo wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

You will note how they're "never more than ten bike lengths in front of the peloton" in the above photo

please forgive my ignorance....but i don't understand.

my guess is that lance used that to justify his unusual behaviour (unusual for the yellow jersey i mean)- trying to make it sound like no big deal?

Pretty much. There was an interview not so long ago where he said he was just following Simeoni's wheel and a gap just opened up behind him.

Anyone got the link? I can't remember what interview it was.

Art Vandelay

afx - from Velo News

LA: Yeah. You regret chasing Simeoni. I mean, you do, because … not because … I still think he’s wrong. I still think he’s not truthful and honest. But I gave him way more attention and publicity than he ever deserved. He had a pedestal after that [stage] that was 50 feet higher than it was the day before.VN: Why did you chase him that day and not earlier in the race [on stage 9] when he was in a break with that Euskaltel guy [Iñigo Landaluze]?LA: Well, I think the misconception is that I chased him. I was on the wheel. I didn’t chase him. I mean, I didn’t go across to him. I was on the wheel. And I’m in the yellow jersey, he’s attacking, I’m on the wheel, I’m thinking, “Of course, Ullrich’s there [on my wheel]. Of course, Klöden’s there. Of course, Basso’s there. Of course, all these guys are there. Of course. Their teams are there.”And I have to say [Simeoni] was going very fast. And I didn’t look back. I mean, he pulled for a couple of minutes. And I was just like — he kept looking back — “Why is he pulling me?” And then I turned around and there was nobody there, and I thought, “Oh, oh. This is kinda funny.” But I never chased him. No.VN: But you stopped him from joining the break …LA: No, we joined the break.VN: Yeah, I meant you wouldn’t let him carry on with the break …LA: That’s what he says.VN: Okay, what do you say?LA: No, I’m the one who started … we got in the break. I started riding with the break. We had about 45 seconds at that point. I took ’em … all of those guys working and me, but me pulling as hard as I could, took them to two and a half minutes. And he was just sitting on the back, whining, “Aaah….” He was yelling, not working, because they were pissed at him. That’s what happened. If you watch the film, you’ll see that. He did not work at all. He was whining, like some Italians do … “Yah, yah, yah” … all these things, and I’m like, “Shut up and ride your bike. C’mon.”But all those guys, they had an opportunity for a stage win. And finally they said to me, “Thanks for the help. Two and a half minutes. Will you go back?” And I said, “Sure.” And I sat up, and the next thing I know, he sits up. And I’m like, “Why is he sitting up?” I’ve never really shared my version of that story because it’s hardly worth it, but since you asked …VN: Well, it’s very interesting.LA: Yeah. But I don’t want to say that I was all…. I think this idea of me chasing him down and he had like 15 seconds and I went across…. He may have come up one side … but I was immediately on the wheel. I didn’t look back, and I certainly didn’t expect to be alone. How can those guys [Ullrich, Basso et cetera] not come with me. That doesn’t make sense

http://www.velonews.com/photo/33348

afx237vi

^ That's the one.

I mean, it's a perfectly plausible explanation when you think about it. He had already won the Tour by that point, so he thought he'd do his good deed for the day by helping the breakaway get a good gap. Yellow jersey wearers do that kind of thing all the time.

dennisn

I remember watching that stage and one of the commentators saying something to the effect that the guys in the break sure don't want Lance up there as it hurts their chances of a stage win because the rest of the main group would never let them get away with him up there. It was also mentioned that IF Lance was chasing Simeoni for personal
reasons that the breakaway group would have to force Simeoni back if any of them wanted a chance for a stage win as Lance wouldn't stay if Simeoni dropped back. FWIW
that's how one of the announcers called it(as best I recall).

Just to add that, apparently, according to the announcers, a few riders in the break did talk to Simeoni and he did drop back and LA fell back with him. I also recall much speculation, on the subject, from the announcers after the two backed off from the breakaway. Most of it dealing with who said what to whom, when, and why.

dennisn

andyp wrote:

Armstrong has footage which showed it didn't happen, but he won't share it. Funny that.

As I recall it Simeoni broke from the pack and LA followed. The announcers were wondering why NO ONE followed Lance. No teammates, no Basso, no Jan, no one.
It really struck me as weird that not a sole followed him. Then the announcers got into their thing about how the two of them were not "close friends"(my words). In any case
he got "sent back" or told "he wasn't wanted at the front"(also my words and I think one of the announcers said something to that effect).

afx237vi

dennisn wrote:

andyp wrote:

Armstrong has footage which showed it didn't happen, but he won't share it. Funny that.

As I recall it Simeoni broke from the pack and LA followed. The announcers were wondering why NO ONE followed Lance. No teammates, no Basso, no Jan, no one.
It really struck me as weird that not a sole followed him. Then the announcers got into their thing about how the two of them were not "close friends"(my words). In any case
he got "sent back" or told "he wasn't wanted at the front"(also my words and I think one of the announcers said something to that effect).

Why on earth would Basso or Jan follow? That would make equally as much sense as the leader of the Tour attacking 150 km out on a dead flat stage three days before the end of the race.

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

dennisn wrote:

andyp wrote:

Armstrong has footage which showed it didn't happen, but he won't share it. Funny that.

As I recall it Simeoni broke from the pack and LA followed. The announcers were wondering why NO ONE followed Lance. No teammates, no Basso, no Jan, no one.
It really struck me as weird that not a sole followed him. Then the announcers got into their thing about how the two of them were not "close friends"(my words). In any case
he got "sent back" or told "he wasn't wanted at the front"(also my words and I think one of the announcers said something to that effect).

Why on earth would Basso or Jan follow? That would make equally as much sense as the leader of the Tour attacking 150 km out on a dead flat stage three days before the end of the race.

At that moment I wondered why they didn't follow. Not realizing the extent of what was going on between LA & Simeoni. Then as things became a bit more clear......(if that's possible).
I also seem to remember that there weren't to many good things said about Simeoni
by the commentators(whomever they were). Something was said about him being looked upon as a traitor by the peloton. That kind of thing.

afx237vi

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Why on earth would Basso or Jan follow? That would make equally as much sense as the leader of the Tour attacking 150 km out on a dead flat stage three days before the end of the race.

At that moment I wondered why they didn't follow. Not realizing the extent of what was going on between LA & GS. Then as things became a bit more clear......(if that's possible).

So we agree. LA joined the break as a grudge against Simeoni and it didn't happen the way he described in that Velonews article.

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Why on earth would Basso or Jan follow? That would make equally as much sense as the leader of the Tour attacking 150 km out on a dead flat stage three days before the end of the race.

At that moment I wondered why they didn't follow. Not realizing the extent of what was going on between LA & GS. Then as things became a bit more clear......(if that's possible).

So we agree. LA joined the break as a grudge against Simeoni and it didn't happen the way he described in that Velonews article.

Or Simeoni did it to p*ss off LA? Knowing he would follow. I don't know. Just trying to give a bit of insight into what I saw and what was said as I remember it. It makes me wonder though, if any of the other riders in that lead group ever talked about what happened? Like I said, at the time Simeoni was said to have been looked upon as sort of a rat by the other riders(or so it was speculated by some). Of course you're going to get two vastly different views from each of the participants. Each claiming complete innocence. I tend to believe that LA was out for blood(so to speak). Sounds like something a man would do to someone who was suing him. On the other hand if no one in the peloton liked him or didn't trust him, who knows???? Maybe it's the old saying of no one likes a rat(right or wrong)?

Richrd2205

dennisn wrote:

Or Simeoni did it to p*ss off LA? Knowing he would follow. I don't know. Just trying to give a bit of insight into what I saw and what was said as I remember it. It makes me wonder though, if any of the other riders in that lead group ever talked about what happened? Like I said, at the time Simeoni was said to have been looked upon as sort of a rat by the other riders(or so it was speculated by some). Of course you're going to get two vastly different views from each of the participants. Each claiming complete innocence. I tend to believe that LA was out for blood(so to speak). Sounds like something a man would do to someone who was suing him. On the other hand if no one in the peloton liked him or didn't trust him, who knows???? Maybe it's the old saying of no one likes a rat(right or wrong)?

What are saying?
If I understand correctly, afx et al give a reasonable interpretation & you respond to say, "well, maybe possibly, but maybe not, but then it might have been."
Did I miss some of your argument, or were you saying something worthwhile that I missed?
I find the endless LA discussions a bit dull, however, this is one of the few which isn't 100% nailed down. You give the impression that thee is no defence for these actions, is that what you meant?

disgruntledgoat

This one is pretty much 100% nailed down. Simeoni testified against Ferrari, Armstrong was, at the least, friends with Ferrari and called Simeoni an "absolute liar".

Simeoni tried to get some exposure/a stage win/a contract for the following year on a final week transition stage, Armstrong brought his personal grudges into play by ensuring that the break would fail (Hinault-esque in it's way, nobody would win a stage in the early 80s if Bernard deemed otherwise.).

After much abuse and vitriol Armstrong and Simeoni dropped back to the peloton, whereupon Simeoni was mocked and spat on by his fellow professionals. He tried to spoil the USPS victory parade a coule of days later by attacking on the run in to the Champs whilst everybody was larking about and sipping Champagne, again, phlegm and abuse followed. Nice guys pro-cyclists.

As an aside, Gilberto Simoni said when asked about it that he thought Simeoni had given up too easily "i'd have told all of them, including Armstrong, that if they wanted rid of me they'd have to drop me".

The Prodigy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

As an aside, Gilberto Simoni said when asked about it that he thought Simeoni had given up too easily "i'd have told all of them, including Armstrong, that if they wanted rid of me they'd have to drop me".

Now that would have been fun to watch.

disgruntledgoat

The Prodigy wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

As an aside, Gilberto Simoni said when asked about it that he thought Simeoni had given up too easily "i'd have told all of them, including Armstrong, that if they wanted rid of me they'd have to drop me".

Now that would have been fun to watch.

The world couldn't handle that level of mardiness... That said, i'd have paid good money to see it!

dennisn

Richrd2205 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Or Simeoni did it to p*ss off LA? Knowing he would follow. I don't know. Just trying to give a bit of insight into what I saw and what was said as I remember it. It makes me wonder though, if any of the other riders in that lead group ever talked about what happened? Like I said, at the time Simeoni was said to have been looked upon as sort of a rat by the other riders(or so it was speculated by some). Of course you're going to get two vastly different views from each of the participants. Each claiming complete innocence. I tend to believe that LA was out for blood(so to speak). Sounds like something a man would do to someone who was suing him. On the other hand if no one in the peloton liked him or didn't trust him, who knows???? Maybe it's the old saying of no one likes a rat(right or wrong)?

What are saying?
If I understand correctly, afx et al give a reasonable interpretation & you respond to say, "well, maybe possibly, but maybe not, but then it might have been."
Did I miss some of your argument, or were you saying something worthwhile that I missed?
I find the endless LA discussions a bit dull, however, this is one of the few which isn't 100% nailed down. You give the impression that thee is no defence for these actions, is that what you meant?

If you need an answer from me - ask a question that I can understand. :? :?

moray_gub

disgruntledgoat wrote:

This one is pretty much 100% nailed down. Simeoni testified against Ferrari, Armstrong was, at the least, friends with Ferrari and called Simeoni an "absolute liar".

Simeoni tried to get some exposure/a stage win/a contract for the following year on a final week transition stage, Armstrong brought his personal grudges into play by ensuring that the break would fail (Hinault-esque in it's way, nobody would win a stage in the early 80s if Bernard deemed otherwise.).

After much abuse and vitriol Armstrong and Simeoni dropped back to the peloton, whereupon Simeoni was mocked and spat on by his fellow professionals. He tried to spoil the USPS victory parade a coule of days later by attacking on the run in to the Champs whilst everybody was larking about and sipping Champagne, again, phlegm and abuse followed. Nice guys pro-cyclists.

.

On the spitting angle I am sure i read somewhere might have been in this forum that it was alleged he finished the stage covered in spittle it was subsequently shown to been a load of b ollox. Think maybe Ekimov spat at the ground as he passed him, also he did have a few backers in the peleton if that had happened then all hell would have broken loose. So its probbaly safe to assume thats one of these unsubstantiated urban myths that pop up from time to time. Still makes for a good story even if it is she-ite

Arkibal

I might be wrong, but I think the spat started after LA called Simeoni a liar (when he said Dr. Ferrari was indeed a dope doc) and then Simeoni sued him.

pomtarr

Sorry to ressurect this, but I'm re-reading Bad Blood by Jeremy Whittle and this seems like an incredible episode (whichever way you look at it). I've searched all over and there still doesn't seem to be any video anywhere of the pertinent sections of either Stage 18 and the final stage of the 2004 Tour.

Any pointers/can anyone shed any light? Otherwise I'll need to download the whole tour from http://www.cyclingtorrents.nl!

Art Vandelay

To answer my own post - yes there is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJHCGx_GZkA
Seen whilst browsing the clinic.

Tusher

Well worth watching, many thanks for the link. I've not seen such a full coverage before.

Just wish my French was better.

greasedscotsman

What does Simeoni say during the interview? Anything interesting?