What are your perceptions of trail centres?
Comments
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The guarantee of a cafe on-site after a long ride, carefully mapped routes that are well maintained and no risk of the public complaining or generally faffing. Although like others have said, I predominantly make use of the local natural trails as these offer far more interesting sections and a heck of a lot more variety.0
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Still waiting for Supersonic to offer to lead a forum ride round Wharnecliffe, to convert us trail centre riders
. I've actually just found the Wharnecliffe woods website, it looks amazing, but not really natural, when I think of natural riding I (due to local conditions) imagine this:
Whereas other people might think of this:
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apart from the sky being that strange blue colour....
if anyone not local heads up to llandegla, post on routes and i can advise on some 'natural' riding using the TC as a base as an alternative to doing the 4 or 5 loops you'd need to make a day of it there: best of both worlds!0 -
tsenior wrote:apart from the sky being that strange blue colour....
True, lol.
You see my point though, 'nature' tends to be everywhere (oddly enough), whereas trail centres only get built in areas that are good for riding. So trail centres are more consistent, natural riding can be brilliant or a dull, flat, muddy nightmare!0 -
Bails:
certainly can! lost count of the number of times i've ended up in that flat muddy nightmare, but i'm lucky in that i can come back after work in a day or 2 and try that promising looking left turn through the quarry instead.
"trail centres only get built in areas that are good for riding"
thats the irony, but if i'm being selfish its quite nice that the other trails in the area are usually quiet while CL can be absoloutly heaving on the weekend!0 -
Sterile, but OK for a change - a blast around without too many gates.
I've actually just found the Wharnecliffe woods website, it looks amazing, but not really natural,
there is some awesome stuff away from the 'built' trails.0 -
I ride both given the chance as both are good and have their own bonuses.
Personally I would consider a trail centre somewhere with a hard surfaced track specialty designed for mtb.
There are not many who can say they have been up Lord Herefords Knob, I can safely say its bloody big and very hard work (near Hay-on-Wye if you don’t believe me)
I regularly ride in the Forest of Dean which I consider natural as there are few surfaced tracks so can cut up badly.
As I live in Hereford which has minimal bridleways the next area I can access is Black mountains and Brecon beacons but the weather conditions can change quickly here so unless with a group of riders they are not a great option on safety grounds unless the weather is good. Several SAS have died of exposure up there and I'm not in their league for survival skills when it all goes wrong.
I often use the trail centres as I know if it all goes wrong there is a strong chance someone will find me if riding on my own and they don’t cut up so are a great winter option.0 -
jenks:
"the weather conditions can change quickly" indeed they can but the met office do a highly detailed forcast and hazard assessment for all the main UK upland areas including the beacons.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/loutdoor/mountainsafety/
(short term, their rainfall radar images are great for seeing if you're likley to have a dry window for a few hours as well)
learning to navigate well and gaining the experience to know when to call it a day (ie bail to the pub) are probably the hardest things but if you build up to it slowly and go prepared for the conditions and terrain you dont need SAS levels of training. (unless you are really confident and/or prepared to take it easy, stick with a buddy or better still 2 though to share out the emergency kit and have 1 to go for help and 1 to stay with the injured).0 -
Trail centres are a guaranteed good ride
I don't necessarily agree with that, and plenty of other riders wouldn't either. Some are, but many hate places like Dalby as can be quite boring. Not particularly my view, but I know many who have it.
As for Wharncliffe, yeah, I am probably spoiled living a mile away! Hopefully in the new year my health would have improved some more and I'll definitely go on a ride with some forumites and make a day of it. It isn't the largest place, more like a big grid of lots of trails and paths interconnecting. There is a new red marked trail being built, and bits of the old black - as well as 7 DH runs - but also totally natural paths and moors where you just go your own way. It may not 'flow' like some trail centres, but then again, you have the choice of exactly what you want to do, where to go. The 4km rock infested crag top ride is fantastic. I still find new paths and routes in there today!
Part of the crag top ride. Just don't hit it too fast, is a long way down on the left!
And for the loons, the 'Peaty Drop':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoZtXN0Xtng
It can get very muddy in parts - I can't guarantee you a trail centre like experience. But there is a bloody good reason our world champ has moved next door because he rates these as some of the best trails of anywhere in the world.0 -
supersonic wrote:Trail centres are a guaranteed good ride
I don't necessarily agree with that, and plenty of other riders wouldn't either. Some are, but many hate places like Dalby as can be quite boring. Not particularly my view, but I know many who have it.
I think it must be relative, I'd count anything with less than 1/3 of the distance on-road as a good ride!
Not necessarily saying all trail centres are great, but good. I'm in no position in terms of experience to judge tbh, it was just a theory: trail centres are built for riding, therefore they should be good compared to the unridably boggy towpaths I'm used to 0 -
Just to repy to tsenior
I know I did not say I often ride on my own hence the coments about riding on the Beacons and the danger of the weather changing not so much when all is well but if you have a mechanical problem or hurt yourself you could be in trouble if the weather changes, it is also not unknow for the forcast to be wrong. I have no problems going on my own on a bright sunny day as if I have an acident then it is likely someone will pass by but in the depths of winter I dont think it is a great Idea to go their on my own. Hence why I said I generaly go to trail centres then
I do know how to navigate using maps and also using my garmin GPS which I carry spare bateries for, I'm well prepaired with spares warm clothes emergency blanket etc. I was just making the point that even the most prepaired can get it wrong.tsenior wrote:jenks:
"the weather conditions can change quickly" indeed they can but the met office do a highly detailed forcast and hazard assessment for all the main UK upland areas including the beacons.
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/loutdoor/mountainsafety/
(short term, their rainfall radar images are great for seeing if you're likley to have a dry window for a few hours as well)
learning to navigate well and gaining the experience to know when to call it a day (ie bail to the pub) are probably the hardest things but if you build up to it slowly and go prepared for the conditions and terrain you dont need SAS levels of training. (unless you are really confident and/or prepared to take it easy, stick with a buddy or better still 2 though to share out the emergency kit and have 1 to go for help and 1 to stay with the injured).0 -
I first got into what I then thought was "mountain biking" about 15 years ago but it was short lived as it mainly consisted of canal towpath type rides. Around 3 years ago I found myself in my late 30's and in need of a new hobby after too much rugby was taking it out of me. When I looked back into mtb'ing I was stunned to see the trail centres sprouting up and decided to borrow a bike and went with two mates to Llandegla.
All three of us are now completely hooked, have spent many weekends around the country doing a wide variety of natural and trail centre riding and we have a week abroad each year too. I have to say that natural rides are now firmly my favourites (Peaks/Lakes) but trail centres have definitely got their place.
If you just fancy a ride on your todd and can't be bothered planning a ride, or if you just fancy a change, they'r great0 -
Trail centres are for little fairy boys with no balls and a complete lack of imagination
Trail centres are a bit like whores - expensive and you know tonnes of other folk have been there before you (and that's just on the same day)!
Seriously now, they have their place and they're a good introduction to mountain biking for many. The best rides are still those where you pop out your O/S map find some terrain that looks interesting and go ride!0 -
Jenks, sorry if i came across as condescending mate, twas not the intention!
Wanted to make the point that outside the TCs its not terra incognita/here be dragons (ok, a few dragons in wales) but am preaching to the converted it seems.
i like heading up into the hills on my own but would never rely on there being a passer-by if something goes wrong. For me the descision to go high/lonely in the winter months depends on the forcast and i leave an approximate route/ETA with the wife, phone in when i'm back near civilisation and I ride well within my limits/err on the side of caution, its a personal judgement call.
When the weathers really bad riding the local park can be enough of a challenge never mind up on the moors....0 -
I have to say I don't believe one is better than the other. I find them to be very different, trail centres offer a focused experience of obstacles and challenges which is great for developing riding skills and technique. Although Trail centres are often in beautiful locations I always find natural riding more soul cleansing and an experience that evokes a sense of "a day on the hills"
I love a quick fix at the trail centres if I am busy at the weekend or its not the best weather but I also love the charm of the unknown and sense of adventure that you get from riding natural. I must admit though I tend to use guide books for the natural stuff so I can't really consider myself a purist!
Different strokes for different folks but trail centres for the most part offer accessibility to newcomers and we should be thankful as it directly results in the evolution of the sport and also helps our economy. 0 -
I tend to do more trail centre MTBing but more natural walking if that maks sense
Glentress has walking trails which completly confuse me ...what is the point? just like when I walk up say Bidean Nam Bien In Glencoe it's hard enough to walk why contemplate carying a bike for a trecherous and basically loony DH 5 minute rush
However, when we go on a trip in the summer up north (the scottish north, not the english north which is south to me) we tend to do a lot of walking and though we take the bikes we don't use them half as much as we expect to one of the pleasures of the scottish Highlands is getting to the top of the mountains and enjoying the solitude of the place (hard in some places... especially south of Glencoe)
TC are enjoyabe you know you will be challenged but also what to expect. It's almost a guaranteed 3 hours of MTB enjoyment with no gates to climb wlkers to avoid draining ditchs to negociate every 20 metres (more frequent on some Scottish mountain paths)
Perhaps we're just blessed in Scotland with great trail centres and even better natural terain meaning we can choose what best suits each particular activity
That's my penny's worthEnough bikes to open a bike shop but always room for one more...0 -
CycloRos wrote:Trail centres are for little fairy boys with no balls and a complete lack of imagination
Trail centres are a bit like whores - expensive and you know tonnes of other folk have been there before you (and that's just on the same day)!
Seriously now, they have their place and they're a good introduction to mountain biking for many. The best rides are still those where you pop out your O/S map find some terrain that looks interesting and go ride!
I agree and disagree with you in equal measure.
How do you define a trail centre exactly? Does it need to include a cafe, bike shop and multiple trails, llandegla-style? Or does a car park and a waymarked trail count as a trail centre?
If it's the latter, head out to Penmachno on a winter's day midweek (if you get a chance) and you're unlikely to see anyone else. The trail has a magical "been here forever" feel to it that easily matches a good "natural" trail. IMO it's the absolute best of both worlds. No need to worry about getting lost, but also no hordes of others. It has none of the "whore" feeling you describe at all.
I do agree that the best rides are ones where you get the OS map out and go find something interesting looking.... but only when it works. If you don't know the area you're going to, something that looks great on the map often turns out to be rubbish, and it's very easy to very wrong very fast on a bike, leaving you with a monstrous climb to pay for the descent that looked good on paper but turned out to be cack.0 -
nomadicbry wrote:Glentress has walking trails which completly confuse me ...what is the point?
I think it's partly to give a non-biking attraction to families/groups, mum and the kids go to the skills loop, dad pointlessly climbs a not-mountain. It's rubbish for walkers but most people aren't walkers, it's just nice to get into the trees.Uncompromising extremist0 -
I think the term trail centre is for those with facilties too - though these can vary.
As for cut up trails, and ditches - you are on a MTB! I think sometimes they add to the experience! Hop them, blast through, pick a line etc.0 -
I like trail centres, but prefer good technical wild trails. Trail centres are great for not having to think or plan, and they're great for honing skills. Reasons I prefer wild trails; love getting to the top of something big, knowing there's a big DH payoff. Love the wide open space and being more out in nature. Like the challenge - on a trail centre, you know that even the black is always technically rideable, but on a natural trail it's not guaranteed, so it takes a bit more focus & comitment. Also like the extra speed you can often get on natural trails, most trail centres are designed to limit speed a fair bit, for obvious reasons, but a natural trail can have a great combination of steepness, technical riding & speed that you don't always get at trail centres.
Both are good, but I prefer natural trails, just.0 -
At the end of the day, it depends on what your own experience of trail centres and non-purpose-built trails is. Like, if your sole experience of trail centres is glentress blue and red (as it is for a lot of people) or the simpler welsh ones, then you can asssume they're all like that and forget about the drumlanrigs and kirroughtrees and innerleithen blacks and suchlike. And likewise if your idea of "natural" is mashing away at a dull cross country path (as it is for a lot of people) naturally you'll be down on that too.switchback18 wrote:Like the challenge - on a trail centre, you know that even the black is always technically rideable, but on a natural trail it's not guaranteed, so it takes a bit more focus & comitment..
Hmm, I can see whered you're coming from but for me it's the other way round, on a non-purpose-built trail there's always that thought, "this might not be rideable" whereas at a trail centre I always know it will be, somehow, which actually forces a bit more commitment from me. No excuses, basically.Uncompromising extremist0 -
I can't comment to any serious degree but it seems like they are a good way of getting more people into Biking.
A trail centre gives you marked routes with facilities and a low chance of annoying other users of the woods. It makes our sport more accessable to many more people and therefore a more attractive option for someone's free time.Not really active0 -
Northwind wrote:At the end of the day, it depends on what your own experience of trail centres and non-purpose-built trails is. Like, if your sole experience of trail centres is glentress blue and red (as it is for a lot of people) or the simpler welsh ones, then you can asssume they're all like that and forget about the drumlanrigs and kirroughtrees and innerleithen blacks and suchlike. And likewise if your idea of "natural" is mashing away at a dull cross country path (as it is for a lot of people) naturally you'll be down on that too.switchback18 wrote:Like the challenge - on a trail centre, you know that even the black is always technically rideable, but on a natural trail it's not guaranteed, so it takes a bit more focus & comitment..
Hmm, I can see whered you're coming from but for me it's the other way round, on a non-purpose-built trail there's always that thought, "this might not be rideable" whereas at a trail centre I always know it will be, somehow, which actually forces a bit more commitment from me. No excuses, basically.
Yeh, I get where you're coming from as well, but for me there's not a huge amount of XC type stuff at trail centres that I find testing, so most stuff doesn't feel like 'got to commit, don't bottle it' etc, whereas natural stuff can have that edge, like the DH from Helvelyn past Grizedale Tarn for example. Had 3 offs, but all of it seemed like it was doable, just a bit of a step up from most trails centre stuff, so couldn't just take it in my stride._Ferret_ wrote:I can't comment to any serious degree but it seems like they are a good way of getting more people into Biking.
A trail centre gives you marked routes with facilities and a low chance of annoying other users of the woods. It makes our sport more accessable to many more people and therefore a more attractive option for someone's free time.
Agree that trail centres get a lot of people into the sport which is ace. Some then look at what else is out there. As to annoying other users, everyone can get on - in nearly 20 years of riding I've had 1, maybe 2 bad experiences. Best to say hi & be friendly. Every good experience that a walker or horse rider has of meeting a MTBer makes any bad ones seem like a minority rather than the usual. If no one makes the 1st move then people make their minds up based on prejudice. Say hello & it's different. My other thought is that the trails might need using to stay open, so get out & explore! But I wouldn't be without trail centres now, they're an easy quick-fix!0 -
Glentress has walking trails which completly confuse me ...what is the point?
Because the walks were there loooooong before mtbing became the "in" thing. The descent from Dunslair mast was a walk. It was also an uphill strugle on the first incarnation of the red route many moons ago long before 7Stanes.
It is also part of the FC/E remit/policy to provide the public with recreational facilities.
All terain cycling which is now known as mountain biking in all it`s form sits rather well with FC/E and hepls it attain whatever public participation targets they have to meet theses days.
There have been and will continue to be this debate about trail centres and there place in our "sport".
Without them there would most likely not be as many people on bikes. Bikes would not have developed at the pace they have done over the past 10yrs.
I am lucky to live in D&G with 3 Stanes within 1/2hr drive and 2 within riding distance. I was fortunate to have started "all terain" biking 20yrs or so ago long before Ae, Mabie or Dalbeattie had any trails. Mabie was the first in the area to get a "red" route which on canti braked, rigid bikes not really designed for the job was very exciting :twisted:
A few of us started to create the odd cheeky trail, some adopted into the current Stanes routes and we got ourselves better and better bikes. We then started to buy a mag called mbuk which had route maps in it so we ventured down to the Lakes and the rest is history as they say.
What a lot of forum posters seem to forget is where they started from. Comments like "nothing much to challenge me at a trail centre" are just b.........ks. I ride with kids, adult beginners and experience riders all the time and can assure any of the people with tha attitude they are way off track and need to wind their neck in a bit.
Have ridden with a few bike forum trail gods and they aint :roll:0 -
Anyway getting back to the Ops original postWhat are your main reasons for using trail centres? (E.g. guaranteed good experience? No need to organise a trip? Enjoy the way they ride/flow etc? Experience several features such as burmed corners and table tops, that would not be found easily in the natural environment, Convenience).
guaranteed good experience?.....not always the case for some but I just enjoy riding my bike anywhere.
Experience several features such as burmed corners and table tops.....absoloutly detest these things and have voiced my opinions to the trailbuilders. The cause of too many accidents and are unsustainable features requiring constant maintenance for which they have no budget.
Enjoy the way they ride/flow etc?....yes
Convenience....for me, yes, maybe not of you do not live as close as I do.
No need to organise a trip?.....regularly organise trips with mates to the likes of Kirry,GT, Whinlatter or Grizdale0 -
Curiously I've done it the other way around, started with years of natural riding. I grew up in North Yorkshire where there was tons of natural bits to explore, finding new bits to ride every time I went out, great fun. That said, getting into trail center riding a few years back was a huge leap in enjoyment for me.
We still do some quality natural bits, we rode the Long Mynd and went for an explore through the North York Moors this year, I'm also out every second night in the local hills around here getting fit. By far my most memorable riding is always the trail center stuff, Glentess is an absolute blast, I'd happily ditch the natural stuff and ride that every day! I end up riding natural stuff around here, just to improve my fitness for the weekends at trail centers.
Given natural trails are undefined people seem to bend them as required to win every argument. I'm with Alex actually (there's a first :P) on the analogy front.0 -
My trail centre experience is still limited to Afan and Cwm Carn, but I absolutely love riding Afan once a month or so. We have a lot of good natural local riding around here, but there's something nice about knowing you can head off to Glyncorrwg for the day and go and thrash around 2 or 3 trails that you know will be in good condition and that you know have some great downhill sections to reward all your effort. I've had days in the Quantocks before where I've felt like I've done a lot of hacking uphill only to find that the descent back down felt like a disappointment. Natural stuff can be awesome, but it can also be frustrating.
I'm also lucky enough to know a few people with a good knowledge of the Forest of Dean, so I've seen just how good the riding can be over there, but without their guidance and even with a map I probably would never have found some of the best singletrack sections. I love getting out there and exploring natural trails, but a couple of good bits of singletrack can make or break a ride imo. Trail centres are a guaranteed hit, like somebody else said - concentrated mountain biking.
I think trail centres are a very good thing, like a balanced diet, you can have a bit of both and get all the benefits - but not everybody is a great map reader and many have to travel miles to find some decent terrain and for those guys trail centres make mountain biking worthwhile. Not to mention the benefits of a hot shower, a bike wash and some dinner before a long drive home.0 -
I used to live in the Breacon beacons and thus had the hill out the back door, plus that part isn't a touristy bit so no man made trails or frankly walker/bikers to worry about.
fast forward a few years now I'm on the edge of london there is surrey hills but so far haven't impressed.
swinley while not hard is fun, easy to get to and has coffee/loos and walkers/bikers are mostly kept apart.0 -
Another plus for trail centres is that your expensive brake pads last longer in winter :evil:0
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trailpuppet wrote:Experience several features such as burmed corners and table tops.....absoloutly detest these things and have voiced my opinions to the trailbuilders. The cause of too many accidents and are unsustainable features requiring constant maintenance for which they have no budget.
Mmm, not too convinced by that really... A well made berm lasts well, and helps to stop panic braking before corners- at glentress the volunteers spend an awful lot of time fixing braking bumps before flat corners, we don't spend half as much time fixing braking bumps before bermed corners, or fixing the berms themselves for that matter. I've only done building at Glentress but you can see the exact same in a lot of places.
Tabletops are pretty low maintenance too, the front faces gradually wear out but not any faster than a single kicker (and when they do, you can often just cut a new face on it rather than rebuild)
And I'm not convinced either is a particular cause of accidents- doubles, sure, but tabletops are pretty safe jumps. I can think of one daft berm which was an accident waiting to happen off the top of my head but generally they're as safe as the rider makes them- you can ride round the bottom if you want.
I can't abide doubles myself, they're just tabletops with the middle missing, they add nothing but higher consequences of failure.Uncompromising extremist0
