Addison Lee

oscarbudgie

After being clipped by the wing mirroe of an Addison Lee mini cab last week (in Shoreditch) I wondered if there's a London cyclist who HASN'T been on the receiving end of their drivers' bully boy antics. I know I've suffered several incidents and I don't even ride in central London more than once a week. I never got round to posting the question last week but was reminded to do so today when I heard that an Addison Lee driver has been charged with manslaughter after killing a pedestrian.

il_principe

They only care if your company happens to have an account with them. Sadly mine doesn't. I agree that some of their drivers are complete lunatics.

Headhuunter

I would broaden that out to all minicab drivers. Now that they have the TfL/Tube logo sticker on the back it's easy to work out which cars are minicabs and which aren't. It's not just Addison Lee, very few of them have much regard for other road users.

_Brun_

A mate and I were coasting up so some red lights (with a decent amount of traffic waiting at them) two abreast and had one of those cnuts beeping his horn behind us because we were obviously 'holding him up'. When I politely enquired as to the cause of his completely futile impatience, his response was to offer the sage advice "Show some consideration for other road users".

I count myself very lucky that that's the worst incident that springs to mind.

il_principe

Headhuunter wrote:

I would broaden that out to all minicab drivers. Now that they have the TfL/Tube logo sticker on the back it's easy to work out which cars are minicabs and which aren't. It's not just Addison Lee, very few of them have much regard for other road users.

Yeah, at least that sticker alerts you to their presence. At the risk of sounding a bit daily mail, I note that many mini cab drivers appear to be foreign (at least judging by their poor English), are they required to possess a UK driving licence I wonder?

lost_in_thought

Spot on - any minicab is a threat.

The company I used to work for had a fairly high-use account with AddLee, so I rang their complaints department and complained about one particularly bad incident.

Doubt it did any good but it made me feel better.

Headhuunter

Il Principe wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I would broaden that out to all minicab drivers. Now that they have the TfL/Tube logo sticker on the back it's easy to work out which cars are minicabs and which aren't. It's not just Addison Lee, very few of them have much regard for other road users.

Yeah, at least that sticker alerts you to their presence. At the risk of sounding a bit daily mail, I note that many mini cab drivers appear to be foreign (at least judging by their poor English), are they required to possess a UK driving licence I wonder?

It depends on where they're from. Some countries have reciprocal arrangements with the UK allowing our citizens to drive there and theirs to drive here. It's usually countries which drive on the left as well as countries in the EU.

I always remember when I was about 15 or 16 I did work experience with an accuountancy firm and was sent out with one of the young accountants to help her. She was lovely, of Indian origin but had moved to the UK from Kenya as an adult and told me that she had exchanged her Kenyan license for a UK one.

She freely told me that she had never taken a test but had "bought" her license, which was completely normal in Kenya (although illegal). And boy was her driving scary! She drove through red lights, pulled out in front of people etc as she didn't want to stop because every time she stopped the car, she would stall it and then couldn't get it moving again without stalling a couple more times... I tell you it was like a white knuckle ride!

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I would broaden that out to all minicab drivers. Now that they have the TfL/Tube logo sticker on the back it's easy to work out which cars are minicabs and which aren't. It's not just Addison Lee, very few of them have much regard for other road users.

Yeah, at least that sticker alerts you to their presence. At the risk of sounding a bit daily mail, I note that many mini cab drivers appear to be foreign (at least judging by their poor English), are they required to possess a UK driving licence I wonder?

+1!

I'm going to have my own 'BNP moment' here! - That was tongue in cheek.

I have no love for cab drivers of any kind, including black taxis (the expensive ones).

My issue with mini cab drivers is this. Of the ones that are clearly foriegn,fine make a honest living and all that, but many come from and have learned to drive in Countries where there is no concept of defensive or considerate driving. It's offensive and aggressive driving all the way and the biggest car wins, always.

Moreover a lot of those drivers are not able to handle big cars (anything larger than a 3 series) on narrow London roads encountering the many junctions and different road formats, hence the need to swing/pull out left or right from their lane, which can end up as a left or right hook. Then there's the ones who simple don't understand what a giveway line is.

The trouble is they've come over here and haven't learned how to drive on British roads, which is completely different.

Headhuunter

Having said all this I find London cabbies are not exactly white knights of the road. I have nearly been clipped several times as they suddenly decide to do a U turn in the middle of the road to pick up a fare on the other side. Those cars have amazing turning circles and cabbies will literally throw them into a U in front of you. That and almost taking you out as they pull in hard to the left to pick up passengers.

A year or so ago, I was passing along Tooley St travelling at the same speed as the traffic just behind a cab, I was in the cycle lane. All of a sudden the cab brakes and pulls over without warning or signal, to pick up a fare. My choices were - (1) slam into the side/back of the cab or (2) mount the pavement and hope I didn't hit a ped. I went for the 2nd option and almost took out the cabbies potential passenger.

I had a go at him but he basically said it was my fault. OK I should probably have left enough space for emergency manoeuvres but braking hard, suddenly and without signal or warning is hardly good road behaviour.

DonDaddyD

You know what f*ck em all.

Anytime I see one behind me, when on the bike, I feel aggitated.

I have had arguments, right up by the window, with many.

il_principe

Mmm Google say:

All licensed drivers must hold a full DVLA, Northern Ireland or European Economic Area (EEA) state driving licence.

The other EEA states are:
Austria Greece Malta
Belgium Hungary Netherlands
Cyprus Iceland Norway
Czech Republic Ireland Poland
Denmark Italy Portugal
Estonia Latvia Slovakia
Finland Liechtenstein Slovenia
France Lithuania Spain
Germany Luxembourg Sweden

prawny

Headhuunter wrote:

suddenly and without signal or warning is hardly good road behaviour.

There's a BUPA ad on the back of buses and taxi's round our way saying 'Early Signals Save Lives' oh the irony :?

DonDaddyD

Mmm Google say:

All licensed drivers must hold a full DVLA, Northern Ireland or European Economic Area (EEA) state driving licence.

The other EEA states are:
Austria Greece Malta
Belgium Hungary Netherlands
Cyprus Iceland Norway
Czech Republic Ireland Poland
Denmark Italy Portugal
Estonia Latvia Slovakia
Finland Liechtenstein Slovenia
France Lithuania Spain
Germany Luxembourg Sweden

Mate, if the police said they were going to do a check on all the drivers licences in a particular cab office in Norbury, 80% of their workforce wouldn't turn up to work that day. It happened when they did a check on traffic wardens to see if they could all work legally in Britain about 70%+ of the workforce didn't turn up.

Also I'm sure you can get a fake EU drivers licence along with fake EU passports/papers. If I'm fleeing a war torn or corrupt country by any means necessary, I'd consider it. Also James, think about the age of some cab drivers, a lot of them came over before the EU laws were passed and getting a drivers license was a lot easier.

Some drivers are just crap drivers.

Headhuunter

Il Principe wrote:

Mmm Google say:

All licensed drivers must hold a full DVLA, Northern Ireland or European Economic Area (EEA) state driving licence.

The other EEA states are:
Austria Greece Malta
Belgium Hungary Netherlands
Cyprus Iceland Norway
Czech Republic Ireland Poland
Denmark Italy Portugal
Estonia Latvia Slovakia
Finland Liechtenstein Slovenia
France Lithuania Spain
Germany Luxembourg Sweden

There are plenty of countries outside the EU whose citizens are allowed to drive here without taking a test too. Japan for example. Drivers in those countries come here and simply send the license from their home country to the DVLA and get a British one by return.

Roastie

I was pondering just this issue this morning just after an Addison Lee twunt forced me into the gutter from the right hand side of the bus lane running into E&C.

il_principe

It's a bit crap really, if you want to work as a professional cabbie in any country surely you should have to take a test in that country? I'd rather see taxi drivers be asked to take the advanced test. I had to do this when I drove for a firm back when I was 18/19 and that was just for a Summer job and I wasn't even carrying passengers...

Of course I do realise that having a licence does not automatically make you a good driver, but at least the UK test is designed with UK conditions in mind, surely some comfort?

lost_in_thought

Il Principe wrote:

It's a bit crap really, if you want to work as a professional cabbie in any country surely you should have to take a test in that country? I'd rather see taxi drivers be asked to take the advanced test. I had to do this when I drove for a firm back when I was 18/19 and that was just for a Summer job and I wasn't even carrying passengers...

Of course I do realise that having a licence does not automatically make you a good driver, but at least the UK test is designed with UK conditions in mind, surely some comfort?

+1

However AddLee would probably say 'too expensive and would put us out of business'. :roll:

Soul Boy

Roastie wrote:

I was pondering just this issue this morning just after an Addison Lee twunt forced me into the gutter from the right hand side of the bus lane running into E&C.

This appears to be one of their favourite hunting grounds. A few weeks ago, and on the same day on consecutive weeks there was an Addison Lee cab pulled up with a rider on the ground.

The levels of 'professional' driving around London is pretty poor all round.

Christophe3967

You can always tell the AL drivers - they're reading the A-Z, normally whilst texting.

Zephr

Headhuunter wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

There are plenty of countries outside the EU whose citizens are allowed to drive here without taking a test too. Japan for example. Drivers in those countries come here and simply send the license from their home country to the DVLA and get a British one by return.

It would be good to note at this point that the Japanese drive on the same side of the road as the UK, and probably arent the best country to put in as an example of a random country that is allowed to swap their licence for a uk licence...

are there any other countries outside the EU which people can do that? (I dont think NZ counts, as they are on the left too.)

il_principe

Zephr wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

There are plenty of countries outside the EU whose citizens are allowed to drive here without taking a test too. Japan for example. Drivers in those countries come here and simply send the license from their home country to the DVLA and get a British one by return.

It would be good to note at this point that the Japanese drive on the same side of the road as the UK, and probably arent the best country to put in as an example of a random country that is allowed to swap their licence for a uk licence...

are there any other countries outside the EU which people can do that? (I dont think NZ counts, as they are on the left too.)

Quote fail

Headhuunter

Zephr wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

There are plenty of countries outside the EU whose citizens are allowed to drive here without taking a test too. Japan for example. Drivers in those countries come here and simply send the license from their home country to the DVLA and get a British one by return.

It would be good to note at this point that the Japanese drive on the same side of the road as the UK, and probably arent the best country to put in as an example of a random country that is allowed to swap their licence for a uk licence...

are there any other countries outside the EU which people can do that? (I dont think NZ counts, as they are on the left too.)

That's what I said earlier, many countries which drive on the left have a reciprocal agreement with the UK, including Kenya as mentioned... See above.

Sewinman

I thought that green sticker in the rear window was the new learner driver sign. Having said that when black cabs behave badly they are very bad...they know what they are doing and some of them are pretty vindictive types.

Best recourse to black taxis is to call them a 'faaaarking muuuug!' and do a rythmic hand gesture...speaking their language.

BlackandBlue

lost_in_thought wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

It's a bit crap really, if you want to work as a professional cabbie in any country surely you should have to take a test in that country? I'd rather see taxi drivers be asked to take the advanced test. I had to do this when I drove for a firm back when I was 18/19 and that was just for a Summer job and I wasn't even carrying passengers...

Of course I do realise that having a licence does not automatically make you a good driver, but at least the UK test is designed with UK conditions in mind, surely some comfort?

+1

However AddLee would probably say 'too expensive and would put us out of business'. :roll:

Given the comments of an AddLee driver that I was chatting to recently, I would expect them to pass the cost on to the driver. They pass pretty much every other cost on to them.

the_hundredth_idiot

The VW Polo that came within a gnat's chuff of my elbow trying to pass me at a pinch point this morning definitely wasn't a AL taxi - it was a middle-aged woman taking her teenage daughter to school. I caught up with her at the next set of lights and remonstrated with her - she looked mortified, was very apologetic and claimed she was a cyclist too. Aside from wondering how she could drive like that when she has (presumably) been on the receiving end in the past, I do find it hard to be annoyed with someone when they are genuinely apologetic.

always_tyred

The Hundredth Idiot wrote:

The VW Polo that came within a gnat's chuff of my elbow trying to pass me at a pinch point this morning definitely wasn't a AL taxi - it was a middle-aged woman taking her teenage daughter to school. I caught up with her at the next set of lights and remonstrated with her - she looked mortified, was very apologetic and claimed she was a cyclist too. Aside from wondering how she could drive like that when she has (presumably) been on the receiving end in the past, I do find it hard to be annoyed with someone when they are genuinely apologetic.

"I'm a cyclist too and..." means, "I have a childhood memory of riding a bike in the local park."

I'm had a few prime examples of humanity applogise for some driving abuse in this way. My stock response is now, "Well you clearly don't cycle very often." Which is ambiguous - an insult to their driving or their appearance?

If particularly annoyed, I will say, "Well judging from the look of you you don't cycle very often." Not ambiguous.

erb66

Hi, I must need my head examining for coming on here, but hopefully you will all read this with an open mind and not set the attack dogs on me! :shock:

First off, a little about me. I'm 43 years old and a LIcensed London Taxi Driver, i.e. real Taxi, not a minicab driver who drives round in a Toyota Avensis with a Baby-On-Board green roundel in the back window. I can already hear the howls of derision, but read on folks.

Its nice to see that Taxi drivers and cyclists finally have some common ground. Addison Lee drivers!!!! :evil: Right, now I've got you back onside!!

I'm a bike rider too, however my riding is done off-road out in Kent, rarely on-road, so I can't 100% associate with what you guys go through on a daily basis in London. However, as you will see later I do have experience to some extent of London on 2 wheels.

Now we could spend all day recounting our own particular tales of woe at the hands of our respective groups as you have done on this thread. God knows I could tell you of the pretty much daily encounters with cyclists jumping red lights in front of me (I save at least one cyclists life every day, but they never seem to appreciate it ), near deaths of pedestrians from cyclists not stopping at pedestrian crossings, countless scrapes on my bodywork from cyclists (and motorcyclists) desperate to weave through stationary traffic to get to their destination 30 seconds quicker, lack of hand signals, lack of protective equipment, lack of LIGHTS! I could go on. But that ISN'T why I came on here, I'm not that stupid as to think that all us Taxi drivers are saints. So that would open me up to ridicule and I haven't the spare time to waste on that.

No, the reason I came on here was to give our perspective on this discussion, to add some balance to the argument and also to correct some misconceptions that have been stated in this thread.

There is a massive difference between Taxi drivers (such as myself) and Minicab drivers (such as the likes of Addison Lee). Yes, minicabs have a licensing system now, but don't let the 'Licensed' bit fool you, Taxi drivers have about as much in common with Minicab drivers (or Private Hire as they like to call themselves) as chalk has with cheese. Let me introduce some FACTS at this point, not urban myths or commonly held beliefs, these are facts.

1) All London Taxi drivers (well, probably 99% anyway, some use cars but very rarely) will, prior to gaining their license, have spent an average of 3 years riding around London on a moped or suchlike, whilst doing 'The Knowledge'. This is very much an eye-opener in terms of being made aware of people on 2 wheels. I grant you it isn't the same as being on a pushbike, but it still affords you the same level of exposure and vulnerability that a cylist experiences.

2) All London Taxi drivers are very much accountable for their actions. We have both a vehicle and Taxi license number on the back of our Taxi's that are visible to both the public, on foot, wheel or otherwise, as well as Police and Speed/Traffic light cameras. Such identification is not evident on cyclists and therefore they are wholly unaccountable for their actions when it comes to obeying road regulations. When a London Taxi driver obtains points on his/her driving license, this ultimately threatens the status of his/her Taxi driving license, a license he/she worked damn hard for by doing the Knowledge. This threat does not hang over cyclists, nor, to a similar extent does it hang over Minicab drivers, because they did not have to work hard to gain a license, other than filling out a few forms and handing over a cheque (but don't get me started on that!!!!).

3) All London Taxi drivers hold a Full UK drivers license. What is more, on passing the Knowledge, they also have to re-take a driving test, which not only covers the usual stuff you do in a driving test, it involves what is called 'Cabology', i.e. learning the kind of driving conditions you can expect in the capital on a daily basis. As well as this it involves the process of loading wheelchair users into the Taxi with all the H&S implications that this entails. None of this is done by Minicab drivers.

4) All London Taxi drivers have done 'the knowledge'. This means that for an average of 3 years we have had to learn virtually every street, one-way system, restaurant, club, pub, hotel, railway station, tube station, police station, hospital, fire station, embassy, blue plaque, government building and any other manner of point of interest. As well as this we have to be able to, at the drop of a hat, instantly call the straightest line from point A to point B, anywhere in London, in our head, without looking at a map. And name every single road and turning, being careful not to go down a 1-way street the wrong way or take an illegal right turn in the process. So basically what I'm saying is we know our stuff. Now, the reason I'm saying this is because this is a big aid in driving safely, as we are not RELIANT on a SatNav unit sitting in front of us. Which is what Minicab drivers rely on and this leads to erratic behaviour such as a) sudden turns when they realise they have missed a turning or their unit has lost its GPS signal and b) lack of concentration on the road as a result of looking at the Satnav screen instead of out of the windscreen.

Ok, bored you yet? Apologies if I have but I think its important to point some of this stuff out because Joe Public is not generally aware of the massive distinction between the 2 factions. I know I'm biased in this argument, but that is why I have stated the above, because they are irrefutable facts.

Now, I am not saying that all Taxi drivers are angels, far from it. I've made mistakes at the expense of cyclists on occasion too, i.e. the U-turn thing, but I will always apologise if I know I've done wrong. Driving upwards of 10 hours a day in London its inevitable frankly. What you have to realise is that its hard out there especially at the moment with the recession and we all have bills to pay so when you see a hand go up sometimes you just act on impulse. We are self-employed individuals and not salaried, so every fare is precious to us. Thats not to say it excuses bad driving but I'm just trying to help you to understand that we don't do it purely to irritate people.

There is a big stereotype myth about London Taxi drvers and I myself would like to think I don't fit that stereotype. I have my moans about cyclists all the time, but then I moan about rickshaws, buses, white van drivers and pedestrians too! Its human nature. But I just want you to know we're not all inconsiderate drivers and that we are a good bunch who take a great deal of pride in what is fast becoming one of the last remaining "noble trades" around.

Lastly, slightly off main topic, but I'd like to address the comment someone made earlier in this thread when they made the distinction between Minicabs and us Taxi drivers with us being 'the expensive ones'. This is one of the the most commonly held urban myths of all time in London. WE ARE NOT MORE EXPENSIVE THAN MINICABS. In instances such as journeys over 20 miles, the meter can go more expensive than minicabs (however, in some instances on journeys that long you will often find the Taxi driver prepared to negotiate a fixed price and do it 'off meter' anyway). I won't bore you with sample fares, however, I can assure you that we are not more expensive at all. To measure this, simply go to Addison Lee's website and use their fare calculator utility, then come back to me and, without telling me their price, I will tell you what the fare would go in a Taxi and I GUARANTEE the Taxi will be cheaper. I have performed this exercise myself countless times and EVERY time we are way cheaper. There are people coming out of clubs every night of the week and getting into my Taxi asking me how much it will be, then telling me "blimey that minicab driver over there just quoted me £x".

Anyway, I've banged on way too long now, basically I'm just trying to redress some balance here. Us London cabbies have worked very hard to qualify for our profession and that should tell you something about us. We're not all cyclist-hating, right wing fascists wearing flat caps, we're just normal boys and girls who have families to support and bills to pay just like yourselves. Peace to one and all and be safe out there.

prj45

oscarbudgie wrote:

After being clipped by the wing mirroe of an Addison Lee mini cab last week (in Shoreditch) I wondered if there's a London cyclist who HASN'T been on the receiving end of their drivers' bully boy antics. I know I've suffered several incidents and I don't even ride in central London more than once a week. I never got round to posting the question last week but was reminded to do so today when I heard that an Addison Lee driver has been charged with manslaughter after killing a pedestrian.

I've complained about three Addison Lee drivers in my time, driving so hurried and bullying that it provoked me to contact the company.

erb66

Oh, and one other thing related to Addison Lee that I forgot to mention.

John Griffin, the head honcho at Addison Lee, actively encourages his drivers to break the law by using the M4 Bus Lane and will then reimburse his drivers any fines incurred. Now whether you agree with the concept of the M4 Bus Lane or not, encouraging drivers to break the law (which brings with it very dangerous driving situations whereby his minicabs are weaving in and out of fast moving motorway lanes) is unprofessional and irresponsible. So ask yourself this question. If the boss of AL is giving this "we can do what we like" message out to his "drivers", how do you think they are going to perform on the road as a result?

Ok, I'll shut up now.

Gazzaputt

Please don't get me started about Addison Lee drivers.

So many near misses and run ins I've lost count. Some actually when I'm driving the car as well.

None of them I have come across are British and their grasp of the english language I've found to be limited and their knowledge of British highway code non existent .

W1

erb66 wrote:

...a good first post...

Useful stuff there - you'll now get all the war stories. To be honest, I've had a few run-ins with cab drivers, and I'm afraid the stereotype is based in part on reality. However I'd generally rather be overtaken by a cabbie (who is, in theory, a professional driver and has a lot to lose) than many other lunatics on the road.

Fair play to you for coming on here to give your view.