SportTracks or WKO+

jibberjim

liversedge wrote:

Define "extended" ? 5s or 30 mins? I have seen odd artefacts in their algorithm for stops as short as a couple of seconds.

If you look really closely at the data, esp. with very short intervals, there are some real hidden oddities in there.

With WKO 2.2, stops are ignored for many metrics - mean max power curves, peak 1 minute, your NP is based off of just your moving time. All of which results in different data. I did an example hill repeat session which can have a 14% difference in TSS depending on if you roll back to the bottom off the hill in the space of a minute or go down in 30 seconds and then pause for 30 seconds.

With WKO 3.0, pauses less than 8 seconds are particularly bad, since it considers these dropped samples and smooths the data so far from the reality of actually 0 watts done, you get given a bonus of another 7 seconds at the watts immediately after the pause. WKO 3.0 and sprints from lights with an auto-pause when stopped recording device will be a great way to produce a massive power average that's completely unbased in fact.

WKO 3.0 still has the same issue with MMP's etc. not taking account of not-recorded time.

So for me, NO pausing of any sort when riding.

There is still the problem that the algorithm for TSS rewards ride duration even when it's 0. What I do to overcome this is remove any period of the file where there are no readings for 1 minute by simply cutting them out in WKO, essentially I'm changing the algorithm such that it just considers time where there was a non zero power average over a 1 minute period as part of the ride. Other people will have different ideas of what a seperate ride is, but the general nature and inaccuracies of the model will likely mean it matters little what you choose as long as you are consistent and do broadly similar rides - ie if you suddenly start doing lots of track sprints having previously just done long rides in the hills with multiple cafe stops your TSS values are not going to be comparable.

johncp

musto_skiff wrote:

How do I change the HR zone settings in ST?

I hae them set in my 705 but ST dosn't seem to be picking up the set zones in the Garmin?

Go to "Select View"--Categories--Heart Rate Zones

'It's the biggest fault in ST that there isn't a user guide, but most things have been answered on forum if you hunt about a bit

jibberjim

Johncp wrote:

'It's the biggest fault in ST that there isn't a user guide, but most things have been answered on forum if you hunt about a bit

http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTr ... 41904a2582

Is the user guide essentially,

This is the one about editing zones:

http://www.zonefivesoftware.com/SportTr ... php?t=4406

You even get to see how my weight was changing in some of last year as some of the screenshots are from my log book.

hopper1

Jim,

Taken from another post:

jibberjim wrote:

lloydy75 wrote:

What do you need to do if you are using a 705 with the Powertap?

Wake the PT up.

Go to Ant Settings and select CALIBRATE. wait for the calibration successful message to come back.

jibberjim wrote:

It can be trivially dealt with simply by not having smart recording turned on.

The only other problem with using the garmin rather than the yellow computer is the lack of access to the torque values for checking calibration. However you can deal with this by using your computer and an ANT+ stick as it's only something you want to do at home anyway.

Are these two different descriptions for the same job, or is a Garmin 705 the same thing as an ANT+ stick? :?

simon t

i'm confused so is it worth spending £85 on WKO3 or just use sportracks?

jibberjim

hopper1 wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

It can be trivially dealt with simply by not having smart recording turned on.

The only other problem with using the garmin rather than the yellow computer is the lack of access to the torque values for checking calibration. However you can deal with this by using your computer and an ANT+ stick as it's only something you want to do at home anyway.

Are these two different descriptions for the same job, or is a Garmin 705 the same thing as an ANT+ stick? :?

They're different things, the calibration with the 705 is something you should do every time you ride.

The static checking of calibration is something that lets you see if the powertap is actually reading accurately - ie you place a known torque on the pedals and see if that's the torque that's returned. It's something that is not available with just the 705.

jibberjim

simon t wrote:

i'm confused so is it worth spending £85 on WKO3 or just use sportracks?

Golden Cheetah or SpotTracks with the training load plugin do everything WKO does and there's no need to spend the money on WKO3. There are some things that WKO does better (the stacked graph is nice) but I'm not sure it's worth the price, and I've certainly not upgraded to 3.

hopper1

jibberjim wrote:

The static checking of calibration is something that lets you see if the powertap is actually reading accurately - ie you place a known torque on the pedals and see if that's the torque that's returned. It's something that is not available with just the 705.

As I don't have a wireless CPU, how do I go about checking my PT for correct torque.
Just quickly borrow someone elses, or do I need something else?

jibberjim

hopper1 wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

The static checking of calibration is something that lets you see if the powertap is actually reading accurately - ie you place a known torque on the pedals and see if that's the torque that's returned. It's something that is not available with just the 705.

As I don't have a wireless CPU, how do I go about checking my PT for correct torque.
Just quickly borrow someone elses, or do I need something else?

Yes, or borrow/buy an ANT+ Stick (20quid or so, or available with all the Garmin forerunner watches since the 405 / 310xt / 50 / 60) and then you can use your computer to do it. Although it's a lot of a pallaver on windows. http://jibbering.com/blog/?p=527 has more info, but is far from a simple explanation...

doyler78

jibberjim wrote:

hopper1 wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

The static checking of calibration is something that lets you see if the powertap is actually reading accurately - ie you place a known torque on the pedals and see if that's the torque that's returned. It's something that is not available with just the 705.

As I don't have a wireless CPU, how do I go about checking my PT for correct torque.
Just quickly borrow someone elses, or do I need something else?

Yes, or borrow/buy an ANT+ Stick (20quid or so, or available with all the Garmin forerunner watches since the 405 / 310xt / 50 / 60) and then you can use your computer to do it. Although it's a lot of a pallaver on windows. http://jibbering.com/blog/?p=527 has more info, but is far from a simple explanation...

From what he has said before I think he doesn't have a wireless powertap yet (though I think he is to be getting one) so he may mean that he can't use wireless at all in which case he will either have to borrow or buy the powertap computer.

jibberjim

doyler78 wrote:

From what he has said before I think he doesn't have a wireless powertap yet (though I think he is to be getting one) so he may mean that he can't use wireless at all in which case he will either have to borrow or buy the powertap computer.

Sorry, you're right that I missed the wired part of the question - though if you have a wired PT, then the wired headunit you have displays torque and allows you to check calibration. It is only an issue if you have an ANT Wireless device, and use the 705 (which doesn't display torque - not sure why as it has to calculate it) as a head unit.

You check it by placing a known weight on the pedals, and check the torque displayed by the head unit is correct.

Alex_Simmons/RST

jibberjim wrote:

With WKO 3.0, pauses less than 8 seconds are particularly bad, since it considers these dropped samples and smooths the data so far from the reality of actually 0 watts done, you get given a bonus of another 7 seconds at the watts immediately after the pause. WKO 3.0 and sprints from lights with an auto-pause when stopped recording device will be a great way to produce a massive power average that's completely unbased in fact.

Not sure I totally follow the first part. Is it an issue with the software or the hardware you are using? I certainly don't see this behaviour with my SRM data. In fact WKO picks up things that SRM Win doesn't.

I am experiencing other bugs though, like distance measurements being way out of whack with SRM PCVI - Peaksware are working on the Device Agent bugs.

jibberjim

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

With WKO 3.0, pauses less than 8 seconds are particularly bad, since it considers these dropped samples and smooths the data so far from the reality of actually 0 watts done, you get given a bonus of another 7 seconds at the watts immediately after the pause. WKO 3.0 and sprints from lights with an auto-pause when stopped recording device will be a great way to produce a massive power average that's completely unbased in fact.

Not sure I totally follow the first part. Is it an issue with the software or the hardware you are using? I certainly don't see this behaviour with my SRM data. In fact WKO picks up things that SRM Win doesn't.

Your SRM Win data doesn't auto pause when you stop though? but only upon getting no data for some moments I believe? It's only really going to be an issue with a Garmin on Auto-Pause, or anything where you can manually pause and resume for less than the 8 seconds.

It's not so much a problem with WKO, in that it's probably a sensible approach for them to work sort of with the Garmin Smart Recording crap, and it's easily dealt with by not pausing at all.

So it's mostly a user/hardware issue, rather than anything specific about WKO 3.0 itself.

hopper1

jibberjim wrote:

doyler78 wrote:

From what he has said before I think he doesn't have a wireless powertap yet (though I think he is to be getting one) so he may mean that he can't use wireless at all in which case he will either have to borrow or buy the powertap computer.

Sorry, you're right that I missed the wired part of the question - though if you have a wired PT, then the wired headunit you have displays torque and allows you to check calibration. It is only an issue if you have an ANT Wireless device, and use the 705 (which doesn't display torque - not sure why as it has to calculate it) as a head unit.

You check it by placing a known weight on the pedals, and check the torque displayed by the head unit is correct.

Cheers guys. Just to clear it up... Currently I have a wired type PT, but I'm waiting for the ANT+ PT to be built into a wheel, so will very shortly be on wireless.
Obviously I need to zero the Powertap prior to each use, but do I need to calibrate it as often, or is this just an 'after installation' test, then check every so many months?....

Alex_Simmons/RST

hopper1 wrote:

Cheers guys. Just to clear it up... Currently I have a wired type PT, but I'm waiting for the ANT+ PT to be built into a wheel, so will very shortly be on wireless.
Obviously I need to zero the Powertap prior to each use, but do I need to calibrate it as often, or is this just an 'after installation' test, then check every so many months?....

You can't calibrate a PT (or a Quarq), only check its calibration.

You can calibrate an SRM.

I check SRMs about every six months to see if slope setting needs changing. I would checks PTs initially and maybe once or twice per year, and definitely if I think there is suspect data. All my wired units have been very good at staying within spec.

SRM units should be checked immediately as it is my (and many others) experience that SRM's own calibration numbers are wrong out of the box.

hopper1

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

hopper1 wrote:

Cheers guys. Just to clear it up... Currently I have a wired type PT, but I'm waiting for the ANT+ PT to be built into a wheel, so will very shortly be on wireless.
Obviously I need to zero the Powertap prior to each use, but do I need to calibrate it as often, or is this just an 'after installation' test, then check every so many months?....

You can't calibrate a PT (or a Quarq), only check its calibration.

You can calibrate an SRM.

I check SRMs about every six months to see if slope setting needs changing. I would checks PTs initially and maybe once or twice per year, and definitely if I think there is suspect data. All my wired units have been very good at staying within spec.

SRM units should be checked immediately as it is my (and many others) experience that SRM's own calibration numbers are wrong out of the box.

My apologies, Alex, I did mean check calibration, but typed calibrate! :oops:

rokkala

So with regards to this 'stomp test'. From what i've read it seems to be sitting on bike with rear brake locked on, pedal at 3'o'clock and then standing on the front pedal. Is that right?

And how hard do you stomp?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Rokkala wrote:

So with regards to this 'stomp test'. From what i've read it seems to be sitting on bike with rear brake locked on, pedal at 3'o'clock and then standing on the front pedal. Is that right?

And how hard do you stomp?

"Stomp" probably isn't a good choice of word for the test.

The idea is to hang a known mass from a horizontal crank arm at the pedal spindle. Standing on the pedal is one way, if you are able to do so with full body weight and balance yourself to get a sensible reading.

DaveyL

Rokkala wrote:

So with regards to this 'stomp test'. From what i've read it seems to be sitting on bike with rear brake locked on, pedal at 3'o'clock and then standing on the front pedal. Is that right?

And how hard do you stomp?

I tried this test with my own bodyweight and couldn't get a reading which got anywhere close to an accurate value - was about 10-15% low. I found it really difficult to balance with my weight on one pedal and keep a consistent reading. I then got in touch with Saris and got this advice:

"We don't recommend the use of the stomp test as a way to test the accuracy of the power tap. There is a much easier way. You can go into the setup screen under the test mode and check the hub calibration. The number you get should be between 500 and 522, if it is significantly different from that you will need to get the hub recalibrated."

Maybe forum PT experts like Alex can comment on whether they agree with this or not.

rokkala

Thanks.

DaveyL is that screen to check hub calibration available on a Garmin 705 or would you need the lyc again?

DaveyL

Sorry - no idea about the 705 - don't have one. Am sure someone else can comment but I would not bet on it being available.

You might be able to borrow a head unit from someone though.

doyler78

Rokkala wrote:

Thanks.

DaveyL is that screen to check hub calibration available on a Garmin 705 or would you need the lyc again?

No it is not availabe however you have 2 alternatives.

You can get a Garmin Ant+ stick (widely available) and send the data to your pc.

jibberjim has an app for that (as apple would say ) - check out his website that allows you to see the data that the powertap is sending to the ant+ stick or

you can of course use the lyc.