Reclaim the ASL Box!
Comments
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I don't recall saying it's a catch all - it'll never prevent the most determined of left hooks, but then thanks to taking the lane you're now much more likely to have enough time and space to deal with the errant moton. OTOH taking the lane discourages the majority of left hooks.0
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Porgy wrote:BentMikey wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Personally I think it's far safer to get ahead of motorists, in general I find I can accelerate away from a junction faster than cars anyway (for the 1st few metres at least, average speed of motor traffic in central London is about 10mph or something so often it actually makes sense for faster moving cycle traffic to move away 1st) and not being caught up in the traffic behind saves you stopping/starting etc as cars in front jostle around each other trying to change lanes etc and also you don't get left hooked.
ASLs and even better, cycle filter lights are great IMO, if they are enforced, but they're not, so they're basically a waste of green tarmac.
Your opinion would put you at odds to that of the experts though. If you're suffering with left hooks, that implies you're not taking the lane through junctions as you should be doing.
Taking the lane through junctions is not the catch all remedy some people seem to think it is. Most junctions I travel through are 3/4 or even 6 lanes wide. There is nothing to stop a motorist from going into a different lane and then left hooking you. And that is what usually happens when I get left hooked.
I'd love to be able to take 2 or 3 lanes at once, alas it is sadly, physically impossible.
Exactly, that's what I meant. Most junctions on major roads in London are 2-3 lanes wide and motorists sometimes jostle around, changing lanes etc before finally crossing or turning. TBH I haven't been left hooked for years, but getting ahead of the traffic totally avoids the potential problem altogether.Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
Actually, no. Getting ahead of the cars just means that they all race ahead and try to squeeze dangerously past you. The main exception is if there's a queue on the other side of the junction, of course.
Otherwise, sitting one or two cars back means that you can accelerate more gently, and not worry nearly as much about the car behind you trying to overtake inappropriately. The car(s) in front take away their desperation to do so. There are reasons that the experts teach that you don't have to go to the front all the time, and they are right.
Plus, most of those cyclists who are so desperate to get out in front tend to be the ones that lose the moral high ground by crossing the stop line, sometimes to the extreme that they can't see the lights change.0 -
BentMikey wrote:Actually, no. Getting ahead of the cars just means that they all race ahead and try to squeeze dangerously past you. The main exception is if there's a queue on the other side of the junction, of course.
Otherwise, sitting one or two cars back means that you can accelerate more gently, and not worry nearly as much about the car behind you trying to overtake inappropriately. The car(s) in front take away their desperation to do so. There are reasons that the experts teach that you don't have to go to the front all the time, and they are right.
Plus, most of those cyclists who are so desperate to get out in front tend to be the ones that lose the moral high ground by crossing the stop line, sometimes to the extreme that they can't see the lights change.
Not really, as I mentioned, I and many other cyclists can pull away from junctions faster than cars/motorists. I can often get across a junction before anyone reaches me and by then they have picked a lane and we're back to forward moving traffic and I have avoided all the potential jostling and turning at the junction itself. Also I have been very plainly visible and obviuos at the head of the junction rather than sat somewhere in the middle where drivers can possibly miss you as they concentrate on the lights ahead, the vehicle in front, pedestrians about to cross etc etc.
Getting ahead of the traffic always works for me and lets me get way ahead of the traffic. It often means I am still ahead of the majority of the traffic when I get to the next junction too as many sets of lights are very close to gether in London. If motorists are blocking the ASL I move ahead of them.Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
That's your opinion, but it's not what is taught in national standards cycling. It's not what John Franklin and other experts think is best practice either.
When you're out front, you may visible if you've taken the lane and not if you're to the left. Regardless, you'll be that "bloody cyclist I have to overtake" to the driver(s) behind you. Taking the lane one or two vehicles back places you in the very best position for visibility, and gets the driver behind you to treat you as another vehicle taking your turn through the junction like everyone else.0 -
BentMikey wrote:That's your opinion, but it's not what is taught in national standards cycling. It's not what John Franklin and other experts think is best practice either.
Yes, it's my view and every cyclist has different views on what they feel is safe, your experiences differ from mine which is fair enough I suppose. Every day I see junctions with an ASL box and filter cycle lane heading into it in which cyclists happily queue even though the ASL box is largely empty apart from a couple of mopeds and a motorbike or something. Cyclists queue up next to cars, lorries, buses etc rather than using the cycle lane to get themselves into the ASL (which is what it's designed for). When I get stuck behind cyclists queuing like this alongside cars there is no way I have ever felt safer than when I get into the ASL or ahead of it. Don't really care what the "experts" think...Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
I think I agree with HH here - I can usually get across a junction faster than motor vehicles - abd feel a lot safer doing so - sometimes I'm across before they've even moved off but that's probably cos half of them are asleep at the wheel.0
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Headhuunter wrote:Cyclists queue up next to cars, lorries, buses etc rather than using the cycle lane to get themselves into the ASL (which is what it's designed for). When I get stuck behind cyclists queuing like this alongside cars there is no way I have ever felt safer than when I get into the ASL or ahead of it. Don't really care what the "experts" think...
That's only because sitting on the left through a junction is really rather bad practice compared with taking the lane through it and has a much stronger effect on your safety. I can't blame you at all for feeling uncomfortable with this, as I do too when I let myself get caught in this sort of situation.
What we're discussing has a smaller but still noticeable effect on your safety. Your posts suggest to me you've not really tried sitting slightly back in the queue in the middle of the lane, and only at the side, in which case I'm not too surprised at your opinion.
Here's a suggestion - how about picking a couple of junctions on your commute, particularly ones that tend to have more flowing traffic. Then, over a period of a week or two, try taking a gap between cars near the front and riding across in the middle of the lane. Best of all, film it.
p.s. I'm usually one of the first cyclists to reach the other side of any junction, partly because I do fairly big mileage.0 -
BentMikey wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Cyclists queue up next to cars, lorries, buses etc rather than using the cycle lane to get themselves into the ASL (which is what it's designed for). When I get stuck behind cyclists queuing like this alongside cars there is no way I have ever felt safer than when I get into the ASL or ahead of it. Don't really care what the "experts" think...
That's only because sitting on the left through a junction is really rather bad practice compared with taking the lane through it and has a much stronger effect on your safety. I can't blame you at all for feeling uncomfortable with this, as I do too when I let myself get caught in this sort of situation.
What we're discussing has a smaller but still noticeable effect on your safety. Your posts suggest to me you've not really tried sitting slightly back in the queue in the middle of the lane, and only at the side, in which case I'm not too surprised at your opinion.
Here's a suggestion - how about picking a couple of junctions on your commute, particularly ones that tend to have more flowing traffic. Then, over a period of a week or two, try taking a gap between cars near the front and riding across in the middle of the lane. Best of all, film it.
p.s. I'm usually one of the first cyclists to reach the other side of any junction, partly because I do fairly big mileage.
I wouldn't mind giving that a go, however at London junctions in rush hour, if you want to "take the lane" like that, you end up way near the back of a queue of traffic that has already built up, you can't easily take the lane near the front/middle because the traffic has already built up there and unless you physically lift/manhandle/shoehorn your bike horizontally into a gap between a couple of cars near the front (being careful not to scratch their paintwork or smack their bumpers), you have to sit somewhere near the back.
In any case, if I'm ever at a junction at which there are only a couple of cars waiting then it's usually vey straightforward to get into the ASL box anyway, where I prefer to be so to be honest it doesn't sound like it would ever work for me.
This is just my view, yuo're entitled to yours, but I'm not a new cyclist by any means and have picked this up over a number of years of cycling 100-120 miles per week (about 70 of which are in London, the rest on club rides in Kent)Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
...hence the caveat in an earlier post of mine about queues ahead, which tend to have much the same effect as sitting behind the car in front across the junction.
Cycling that sort of weekly mileage, then I should imagine you do come across some suitable junctions for the test. We may not have that different a commute, given that I live in Biggin Hill and commute to the West End.0 -
Eat more?Porgy wrote:I'd love to be able to take 2 or 3 lanes at once, alas it is sadly, physically impossible.
BM & HH, as far as I recall both of you commute in a similar area of London. You may have junctions you both use - perhaps an opportunity to try out or discuss specific different approaches?0 -
One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best.0 -
Kurako wrote:One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best.
I know that junction well. I like 1 the best - provided you time it right e.g. nobody crossing and no traffic coming from Kennington Road. If you can get to the front of the ASL though, just keep to the right two lanes and its fine. The problems occur for me when you approach on a green light and you get stuck in the bus lane, needing to cross two lanes of flowing traffic - usually OK but occasionally a bit scary!0 -
MatHammond wrote:Kurako wrote:One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best.
I know that junction well. I like 1 the best - provided you time it right e.g. nobody crossing and no traffic coming from Kennington Road. If you can get to the front of the ASL though, just keep to the right two lanes and its fine. The problems occur for me when you approach on a green light and you get stuck in the bus lane, needing to cross two lanes of flowing traffic - usually OK but occasionally a bit scary!
I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.0 -
Porgy wrote:MatHammond wrote:Kurako wrote:One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best.
I know that junction well. I like 1 the best - provided you time it right e.g. nobody crossing and no traffic coming from Kennington Road. If you can get to the front of the ASL though, just keep to the right two lanes and its fine. The problems occur for me when you approach on a green light and you get stuck in the bus lane, needing to cross two lanes of flowing traffic - usually OK but occasionally a bit scary!
I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.
I'm not particularly worried. I've been going that way for years. I just don't like putting myself in the way of nutters. Just because a car shouldn't stuff you up the rear end doesn't mean they won't. The only person on the road who's actions I can control are my own. The best you can hope for is to limit the risk of someone else taking you out. One of the best ways is not to be in front when folk go tearing off from lights.0 -
If there are people behind you then you are in front, doesn't matter if there are people in front of you... Its one of the rare examples for me where I genuinely believe its safer to jump the lights than to wait.0
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Porgy wrote:I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you.0 -
BentMikey wrote:...hence the caveat in an earlier post of mine about queues ahead, which tend to have much the same effect as sitting behind the car in front across the junction.
Cycling that sort of weekly mileage, then I should imagine you do come across some suitable junctions for the test. We may not have that different a commute, given that I live in Biggin Hill and commute to the West End.
I don't really understand what you're suggesting then, I thought you meant that instead of filtering right to the front I should try to wedge myself in, taking the lane a few cars back from the front of the queue of traffic... TBH I don't have any problems with my current method so I don;t really have any motivation to try anything else. Making sure I get to the front works for me, especially if the ASL box is not blocked by some imbecile on a motorbike and if it is I shunt past and get in front anyway. Job done - no problems.
We may have the same commute - I head along Old Kent Rd, cross the river at London Bridge, through the City and end at Chancery Lane. I think Porgy lives in Lewisham so probably a sinmilar commute too....Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
BentMikey wrote:Porgy wrote:I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you.
Please explain why it is safer to ignore the vast expanse of open road ahead, with an opportunity to cycle along at your leisure, with no interference from traffic (other than a few other bikes perhaps) but instead to sit in exhaust fumes, waiting for the lights to change and have a load of impatient and aggressive cars driving up your backside. I mean seriously, putting strict compliance with the law to one side from a health and safety perspective this is nonsense isn't it?0 -
Sort of right - I'm saying you should take the lane no matter where you position yourself in the queue. Also that following one or more vehicles across the junction is generally rather safer than being the first one across, with the exception that a big queue of traffic on the other side has much the same effect in taming the crazy overtakes as does following another vehicle across the junction.
There should be plenty of freer flowing junctions on your commute where this approach will work well. I don't use quite the same roads (A21/A2/A202) but have gone along there often enough to know it reasonably.
I love to try new things and learn new skills. The more I learn the more I'm realising how complex it all is and how much I don't know.0 -
MatHammond wrote:BentMikey wrote:Porgy wrote:I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you.
Please explain why it is safer to ignore the vast expanse of open road ahead, with an opportunity to cycle along at your leisure, with no interference from traffic (other than a few other bikes perhaps) but instead to sit in exhaust fumes, waiting for the lights to change and have a load of impatient and aggressive cars driving up your backside. I mean seriously, putting strict compliance with the law to one side from a health and safety perspective this is nonsense isn't it?
At the risk of the thread being hijacked by weadmire...
If you can get to the other end of the drag strip before any cars catch up then obviously that's safest. The problem is that you don't have control over when the lights change so it may not give you much of an advantage.
I prefer to position myself so I don't have to change lanes which is one less thing to worry about. Also traffic moves in waves and the line will stretch out as cars move of. So even if you start between lanes a gap will open up. Slot in and keep up with the car in front and everything is hunky dory.0 -
As Kurako says - the further ahead you get, the bigger the velocity differential when the cars do catch you.0
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BentMikey wrote:As Kurako says - the further ahead you get, the bigger the velocity differential when the cars do catch you.
That's what I love about that stretch - great for sprint training!
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You are weadmire? BAI.0
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I have just started cycling that stretch down to Clapham about three times a week and still haven't worked out my strategy for dealing with it. I'm not too worried about where I end up in the queue if the lights are red but I'm still trying to work out how best to actually approach lane three in the first place. I head down from Elephant. I'm fast but not on a racer, so not mega fast. I come alongside the park to the lights at Oval tube station junction. Is that the set of lights you're referring to or the next set along? And I've tried staying in the bus lane, then moving to lane 3. I've tried sprinting off in lane 3. None of them really works for me yet but, as I say, I'm really still getting used to that junction. I'm also trying to work out the best way to approach it heading north. There's always a bunch of chaos in the ASL at Oval tube on a red light and then I need to swing into that useless bike lane to head towards Elephant going north. I tend to stay just right of the advisory lane actually, taking up some of the main lane as otherwise feel way too close to traffic swinging off to the left. But I still don't feel I've worked out the best positioning to head north. I can't decide whether I should stick to the left between Oval and the next lights for a bit and then pull across once the more impatient motorbikes are past or just head out from the middle lane. Any thoughts?0
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BentMikey wrote:Porgy wrote:I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you.
I was just agreeing with the bit I quoted. I don;t believe in RLJing particularly but don;t feel strongly enough about it to argue over the issue....I don;t see it as a biggie, personally. RLJers can be annoying...but that's about it.0 -
EC2boy wrote:I have just started cycling that stretch down to Clapham about three times a week and still haven't worked out my strategy for dealing with it. I'm not too worried about where I end up in the queue if the lights are red but I'm still trying to work out how best to actually approach lane three in the first place. I head down from Elephant. I'm fast but not on a racer, so not mega fast. I come alongside the park to the lights at Oval tube station junction. Is that the set of lights you're referring to or the next set along? And I've tried staying in the bus lane, then moving to lane 3. I've tried sprinting off in lane 3. None of them really works for me yet but, as I say, I'm really still getting used to that junction. I'm also trying to work out the best way to approach it heading north. There's always a bunch of chaos in the ASL at Oval tube on a red light and then I need to swing into that useless bike lane to head towards Elephant going north. I tend to stay just right of the advisory lane actually, taking up some of the main lane as otherwise feel way too close to traffic swinging off to the left. But I still don't feel I've worked out the best positioning to head north. I can't decide whether I should stick to the left between Oval and the next lights for a bit and then pull across once the more impatient motorbikes are past or just head out from the middle lane. Any thoughts?
Heading North, stay left until there's a gap then hammer it. Like you suggest, its only motorbikes that are likely to be quicker than you away from the lights anyway so usually you can move right pretty quickly, I find the cycle lane is in pretty much the right place but you have to keep an eye out for cars switching left / right between lanes (another reason to get ahead of the traffic where possible.0 -
EC2boy wrote:I have just started cycling that stretch down to Clapham about three times a week and still haven't worked out my strategy for dealing with it. I'm not too worried about where I end up in the queue if the lights are red but I'm still trying to work out how best to actually approach lane three in the first place. I head down from Elephant. I'm fast but not on a racer, so not mega fast. I come alongside the park to the lights at Oval tube station junction. Is that the set of lights you're referring to or the next set along? And I've tried staying in the bus lane, then moving to lane 3. I've tried sprinting off in lane 3. None of them really works for me yet but, as I say, I'm really still getting used to that junction. I'm also trying to work out the best way to approach it heading north. There's always a bunch of chaos in the ASL at Oval tube on a red light and then I need to swing into that useless bike lane to head towards Elephant going north. I tend to stay just right of the advisory lane actually, taking up some of the main lane as otherwise feel way too close to traffic swinging off to the left. But I still don't feel I've worked out the best positioning to head north. I can't decide whether I should stick to the left between Oval and the next lights for a bit and then pull across once the more impatient motorbikes are past or just head out from the middle lane. Any thoughts?
Stay well out of that useless - as you say - cycle lane going to E&C. In the end I found taking that lane completely was the best option - and the one I had least trouble doing.
I think I just used to head out - don;t remember having motorbike trouble particularly - maybe its just a case of being confident, making sure you signal clearly, and go. I find that no matter how close or how fast the motorbikes go they never actually come close enough to cause problems - doesn't stop me thinking they're c*nts though.
What should be in your favour is that there are usually plenty of other cyclists all trying to do the same thing - I always felt safer in a group.0 -
The Chingford Skinhead wrote:Soul Boy wrote:...
Though to be fair, with the amount of cyclists these days just breezing through junctions (and it is still getting worse), I can see an argument that if cyclist's aren't stopping at reds and therefore not using the ASL, then why shouldn't motorbikes use them.
As there has never been a time when ASLs were observed by motorists, perhaps the increase in RLJing is because cyclists are told it is safer to get to the front but when they do they find the ASL rammed full of motorised vehicles I don't RLJ but I think enforcement of ASLs should come before enforcement action against those who RLJ.
Well said!!0 -
Porgy wrote:I was just agreeing with the bit I quoted. I don;t believe in RLJing particularly but don;t feel strongly enough about it to argue over the issue....I don;t see it as a biggie, personally. RLJers can be annoying...but that's about it.
RLJing by cyclists, I'm with you. By motons, especially large heavy vehicles, then I see red!!!0
