Reclaim the ASL Box!

VespaTrek

Hello. Two wheeled commuter here, either Vespa or bicycle. So, I see it from different angles. So I just wondered...

Isn't it about time cyclists reclaimed the ASL Box? Personally on the bike I use it, and on the scooter I would either stop behind it; just inside it to stop a car getting past, or right in it if I have overtaken a line of cars to come round the front and it is the only place to stop.

But bikes seem to have given up on it! If the approach is clear, they either RLJ or go through the ASL to the other side! Not all the time, but a fair percentage.

So, it's about time you used it. Reclaim it. Maybe that's why some cars and scooters and mbikes use it now, cos you've lost it through your RLJs and those that go past it. Reclaim the ASL.

cee

the first thing I like to do is if i find a scooterist in there...is to just push them over.....

:roll:

asprilla

If it's not busy then I'm happy to let scooters use it, but if it is busy then I tend to andgle my bike across the front of them in order to slow their exit.

What really annoys me though is when scooters filter to close to the front and block access to the ASL without actually entering it, but generally if you ask them to move, they do.

alan_sherman

I actually think that cyclists on the far right of an ASL are in a dangerous position due to the go go go moment when the lights change. So I almost wonder if it should be left 50% for cycles and right 50% for motos. I do use both BTW and occasionally go into the right hand side of the ASL when on the motorbike.

Anyone else's thoughts?

teticio

Asprilla wrote:

If it's not busy then I'm happy to let scooters use it, but if it is busy then I tend to andgle my bike across the front of them in order to slow their exit.

i'm fascinated by all this talk of the ASL... i used to commute by bike in london and now i live abroad so maybe i missed something. is there some highway code that says that cyclists have priority in the ASL? i'm not saying it sarcastically, i genuinely am curious to know. if not, then the surely use is down to common sense (informal socially agreed rules). most bikes accelerate over the first few metres faster than cars and it also makes sense to let them "get to safety" first so it seems to be in the common good. but, by the same token, motorbikes and scooters accelerate faster than bikes and also filter through traffic... when i went by bike i always made sure i wasn't in front of a motorbike because i knew i would end up slowing other people down. to deliberately block them seems a bit RC to me, unless you have the law on your side...

Porgy

alan sherman wrote:

I actually think that cyclists on the far right of an ASL are in a dangerous position due to the go go go moment when the lights change. So I almost wonder if it should be left 50% for cycles and right 50% for motos. I do use both BTW and occasionally go into the right hand side of the ASL when on the motorbike.

Anyone else's thoughts?

:?: what would a cyclist who wanted to turn right do?

Porgy

teticio wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

If it's not busy then I'm happy to let scooters use it, but if it is busy then I tend to andgle my bike across the front of them in order to slow their exit.

i'm fascinated by all this talk of the ASL... i used to commute by bike in london and now i live abroad so maybe i missed something. is there some highway code that says that cyclists have priority in the ASL? i'm not saying it sarcastically, i genuinely am curious to know. if not, then the surely use is down to common sense (informal socially agreed rules). most bikes accelerate over the first few metres faster than cars and it also makes sense to let them "get to safety" first so it seems to be in the common good. but, by the same token, motorbikes and scooters accelerate faster than bikes and also filter through traffic... when i went by bike i always made sure i wasn't in front of a motorbike because i knew i would end up slowing other people down. to deliberately block them seems a bit RC to me, unless you have the law on your side...

The law says only cyclists are allowed to use ASLs, although I can't quote chapter and verse....but I do think the big white bicycle symbol painted on ASLs might be a bit of a give away :roll:

BentMikey

Actually, motor vehicles are legally allowed in the ASL under certain circumstances only. I don't see the fuss, personally. If there's a car/motorbike in there, so what?

If you're going to pick fights with motons, this minor issue isn't really one worth worrying about.

bigmat

What's with all this "motorbikes are our friend" rubbish? The majority of near misses I have these days are motorbikes / scooters overtaking far too close in bus lanes. They also continuously block ASL's for cyclists - they have no right to be there, in any circumstances. Reclaiming ASL's would involve kicking off every time I got to one and "having a word" with the motorbikes / scooters already there. Life's too short though.

Porgy

BentMikey wrote:

Actually, motor vehicles are legally allowed in the ASL under certain circumstances only. I don't see the fuss, personally. If there's a car/motorbike in there, so what?

If you're going to pick fights with motons, this minor issue isn't really one worth worrying about.

I said 'use' ASLs - which means enter deliberately - of course the law offers one great get-out clause which is that if drivers weren't paying attention or were trying to pass the ligfht without the way being clear and they end up stuck in the ASLs after the ligths have changed then that's just fine and dandy...so now everyone just enters them like they don;t exist.

Aidy

MatHammond wrote:

What's with all this "motorbikes are our friend" rubbish? The majority of near misses I have these days are motorbikes / scooters overtaking far too close in bus lanes. They also continuously block ASL's for cyclists - they have no right to be there, in any circumstances. Reclaiming ASL's would involve kicking off every time I got to one and "having a word" with the motorbikes / scooters already there. Life's too short though.

The one that really gets me is when a scooter pulls up to the ASL on my right, and then proceeds to cut in front of me to turn left. That's nearly had me off a couple of times. Grr.

Porgy

Aidy wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

What's with all this "motorbikes are our friend" rubbish? The majority of near misses I have these days are motorbikes / scooters overtaking far too close in bus lanes. They also continuously block ASL's for cyclists - they have no right to be there, in any circumstances. Reclaiming ASL's would involve kicking off every time I got to one and "having a word" with the motorbikes / scooters already there. Life's too short though.

The one that really gets me is when a scooter pulls up to the ASL on my right, and then proceeds to cut in front of me to turn left. That's nearly had me off a couple of times. Grr.

I've even had to explain to motorcyclists that although they are turning left I'm not and I do not intend to wait for them to go first. They usually back down when put like that.

kurako

I don't see the attraction of ASLs. If there's a car at the front with an open road ahead the first instinct of the driver is to go racing off as quickly as possible even if it's just to the next red light. Encouraging vulnerable road users to get ahead of all this traffic seems pointless to me.

I prefer to wait a few cars back and move off with the general flow of the traffic. There's less fools trying to go racing past and less chance of getting boxed in by other slower cyclists.

Also, you should remember that people in cars get a red mist sometimes which makes them act like fools. Passing the same wobbly cyclist at every light is one of the things that sets this off. Its completely irrational but its also human nature.

BentMikey

Kurako wrote:

I don't see the attraction of ASLs. If there's a car at the front with an open road ahead the first instinct of the driver is to go racing off as quickly as possible even if it's just to the next red light. Encouraging vulnerable road users to get ahead of all this traffic seems pointless to me.

I prefer to wait a few cars back and move off with the general flow of the traffic. There's less fools trying to go racing past and less chance of getting boxed in by other slower cyclists.

Also, you should remember that people in cars get a red mist sometimes which makes them act like fools. Passing the same wobbly cyclist at every light is one of the things that sets this off. Its completely irrational but its also human nature.

+1

Good and sensible advice for most situations, and perfect cyclecraft. I assume you mean sit in the middle of the lane behind those couple of cars in front, right?

kurako

BentMikey wrote:

Kurako wrote:

I don't see the attraction of ASLs. If there's a car at the front with an open road ahead the first instinct of the driver is to go racing off as quickly as possible even if it's just to the next red light. Encouraging vulnerable road users to get ahead of all this traffic seems pointless to me.

I prefer to wait a few cars back and move off with the general flow of the traffic. There's less fools trying to go racing past and less chance of getting boxed in by other slower cyclists.

Also, you should remember that people in cars get a red mist sometimes which makes them act like fools. Passing the same wobbly cyclist at every light is one of the things that sets this off. Its completely irrational but its also human nature.

+1

Good and sensible advice for most situations, and perfect cyclecraft. I assume you mean sit in the middle of the lane behind those couple of cars in front, right?

I tend to behave like I do in a car. If there's 2 or 3 cars I sit behind the last one. The only time I bother filtering is when there's a long line and I know I'll miss the green signal if I wait. Even then I'll rarely go to the front. I also try not to filter up the left hand side of traffic ( middle of 2 lanes being the exception ) and never ever filter to the left of a vehicle which is indicating left.

bigmat

BentMikey wrote:

Kurako wrote:

I don't see the attraction of ASLs. If there's a car at the front with an open road ahead the first instinct of the driver is to go racing off as quickly as possible even if it's just to the next red light. Encouraging vulnerable road users to get ahead of all this traffic seems pointless to me.

I prefer to wait a few cars back and move off with the general flow of the traffic. There's less fools trying to go racing past and less chance of getting boxed in by other slower cyclists.

Also, you should remember that people in cars get a red mist sometimes which makes them act like fools. Passing the same wobbly cyclist at every light is one of the things that sets this off. Its completely irrational but its also human nature.

+1

Good and sensible advice for most situations, and perfect cyclecraft. I assume you mean sit in the middle of the lane behind those couple of cars in front, right?

Maybe its because I'm asthmatic I don't like to do this - sitting in fumes when there is (relatively) fresh air a few yards ahead makes no sense to me. Also, I regularly commute in pretty congested traffic so if I just sat in line I might have to wait 2 or 3 cycles at the lights whereas if I filter forward (which you can easily do on a bike) I can get through a lot quicker. Makes sense to me and that is where ASL boxes come in handy, provided they aren't full of dwads on scooters.

kurako

But I did say I filter if there's a long line enough line.

IMO If you're going to bother stopping at lights then 2 or 3 cars length makes sod all difference.

I just find that by the time the cars further back are moving at a decent speed I am too and generally past all the wobblers at which point I move back to the left hand side.

EDIT : And of course I don't wait behind something kicking out a dreadful pong. I'm not insane

prj45

cee wrote:

the first thing I like to do is if i find a scooterist in there...is to just push them over.....

:roll:

I pop a potato in their exhaust, makes quite a loud bang when they twist and go.

Seriously, I'm just not shy about muscling my way to the front, especially at the one in front of St Stephen's tower (the one with big ben in it).

Soul Boy

Porgy wrote:

:?: what would a cyclist who wanted to turn right do?

Quite right.

It was chaos coming up to the City from Streatham today, although it quite often is. Loads of motorbikes and scooters using cycle lane approached to junctions, blocking and filling up ASL's.

Though to be fair, with the amount of cyclists these days just breezing through junctions (and it is still getting worse), I can see an argument that if cyclist's aren't stopping at reds and therefore not using the ASL, then why shouldn't motorbikes use them.

And why when an ASL is present, do some cyclists still insist on going through, crossing the ped crossing and sitting on the other side of the lights :roll:

prj45

alan sherman wrote:

I actually think that cyclists on the far right of an ASL are in a dangerous position due to the go go go moment when the lights change. So I almost wonder if it should be left 50% for cycles and right 50% for motos. I do use both BTW and occasionally go into the right hand side of the ASL when on the motorbike.

Anyone else's thoughts?

I'd be up for two ASLs, motocyclists at the front cyclists behind them, then the cagers behind them.

The only issue is them goddam bladdy exhausts that point in my face, seriously, who would buy a machine that's so anti social (not to mention the noise and incedible cost of life support machines to keep bikers alive when they come off)?

prj45

teticio wrote:

is there some highway code that says that cyclists have priority in the ASL?

No, it;s just illegal to cross the first white line if the light is red.

Pedal cycles are permitted to pass the first white line whilst the light is red on the left or right by using the filter lane painted on the road, but they must not pass the second one if the red light is showing.

BTW It's illegal for a cyclist for cross the first line when then light is red too, rendering many ASLs legally useless as they don't have a filter lane for cyclists.

Any vehicle may cross the first white line when the red light is not showing, but the must stop at the second line if the red light comes on, hence it's not illegal for a car to sit in the ASL as long as it didn't pass the first white line whilst the light was red.

BentMikey

The only trouble I have with vehicle exhausts are when sitting behind motorbikes, since they point up.

I've nothing against going to the front either, it all depends on the junction and the amount of traffic.

VespaTrek

Anyone else in London go up Cedars Rd in Clapham/Battersea to the A3 Clapham Common Northside junction? Just wondered. Cos so many times cars and lorries have disregarded the ASL at the top, often parking through it and almost up to the lights... just one of those daily wtf are you doing moments... :roll:

amnezia

I actually don't mind scooters or bikes in the ASL as long as I can still get in it.

The Chingford Skinhead

Soul Boy wrote:

...

Though to be fair, with the amount of cyclists these days just breezing through junctions (and it is still getting worse), I can see an argument that if cyclist's aren't stopping at reds and therefore not using the ASL, then why shouldn't motorbikes use them.

As there has never been a time when ASLs were observed by motorists, perhaps the increase in RLJing is because cyclists are told it is safer to get to the front but when they do they find the ASL rammed full of motorised vehicles I don't RLJ but I think enforcement of ASLs should come before enforcement action against those who RLJ.

roger_merriman

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

Soul Boy wrote:

...

Though to be fair, with the amount of cyclists these days just breezing through junctions (and it is still getting worse), I can see an argument that if cyclist's aren't stopping at reds and therefore not using the ASL, then why shouldn't motorbikes use them.

As there has never been a time when ASLs were observed by motorists, perhaps the increase in RLJing is because cyclists are told it is safer to get to the front but when they do they find the ASL rammed full of motorised vehicles I don't RLJ but I think enforcement of ASLs should come before enforcement action against those who RLJ.

RLJ is a far more potentially dangerous act being in the ASL means that a bike may have to slot behind or in front. I do think it's anoying but its well down the list at least out on the edge of london.

Headhuunter

Porgy wrote:

BentMikey wrote:

Actually, motor vehicles are legally allowed in the ASL under certain circumstances only. I don't see the fuss, personally. If there's a car/motorbike in there, so what?

If you're going to pick fights with motons, this minor issue isn't really one worth worrying about.

I said 'use' ASLs - which means enter deliberately - of course the law offers one great get-out clause which is that if drivers weren't paying attention or were trying to pass the ligfht without the way being clear and they end up stuck in the ASLs after the ligths have changed then that's just fine and dandy...so now everyone just enters them like they don;t exist.

I hear you on this one. People always seem to think buses are the cyclists worst enemy, IME not at all, I have zero problems with buses - bendy or otherwise, they're great big, hulking, slow moving things that are very easy to zip round. It's moped riders and motorcyclists whizzing past your right ear lobe in the bus lane at 50+mph or truing to squeeze through gaps next to you, blocking cycle lanes etc that bugs me and as you have pointed out they block access to ASLs or block the ASLs themselves.

This morning I specifically noticed at one junction that a motorcyclist had actually stopped before the 1st white line and not entered the ASL and cars and other riders had followed suit. It was so very unusual to see that I particularly noticed it.

As someone else pointed out above, I have pretty much given up on ASL boxes, I just RLJ or pass through the box, cross the ped crossing if there is one and sit on the other side.

Headhuunter

Kurako wrote:

BentMikey wrote:

Kurako wrote:

I don't see the attraction of ASLs. If there's a car at the front with an open road ahead the first instinct of the driver is to go racing off as quickly as possible even if it's just to the next red light. Encouraging vulnerable road users to get ahead of all this traffic seems pointless to me.

I prefer to wait a few cars back and move off with the general flow of the traffic. There's less fools trying to go racing past and less chance of getting boxed in by other slower cyclists.

Also, you should remember that people in cars get a red mist sometimes which makes them act like fools. Passing the same wobbly cyclist at every light is one of the things that sets this off. Its completely irrational but its also human nature.

+1

Good and sensible advice for most situations, and perfect cyclecraft. I assume you mean sit in the middle of the lane behind those couple of cars in front, right?

I tend to behave like I do in a car. If there's 2 or 3 cars I sit behind the last one. The only time I bother filtering is when there's a long line and I know I'll miss the green signal if I wait. Even then I'll rarely go to the front. I also try not to filter up the left hand side of traffic ( middle of 2 lanes being the exception ) and never ever filter to the left of a vehicle which is indicating left.

Personally I think it's far safer to get ahead of motorists, in general I find I can accelerate away from a junction faster than cars anyway (for the 1st few metres at least, average speed of motor traffic in central London is about 10mph or something so often it actually makes sense for faster moving cycle traffic to move away 1st) and not being caught up in the traffic behind saves you stopping/starting etc as cars in front jostle around each other trying to change lanes etc and also you don't get left hooked.

ASLs and even better, cycle filter lights are great IMO, if they are enforced, but they're not, so they're basically a waste of green tarmac.

Headhuunter

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

Soul Boy wrote:

...

Though to be fair, with the amount of cyclists these days just breezing through junctions (and it is still getting worse), I can see an argument that if cyclist's aren't stopping at reds and therefore not using the ASL, then why shouldn't motorbikes use them.

As there has never been a time when ASLs were observed by motorists, perhaps the increase in RLJing is because cyclists are told it is safer to get to the front but when they do they find the ASL rammed full of motorised vehicles I don't RLJ but I think enforcement of ASLs should come before enforcement action against those who RLJ.

They were far better observed when first installed, I'm sure of that, I remember motorists hanging back a few years ago, but over the years motorists have realised that the police don't give a flying cr@p is they use them so now at 99.9% of junctions they are completely useless.

BentMikey

Headhuunter wrote:

Personally I think it's far safer to get ahead of motorists, in general I find I can accelerate away from a junction faster than cars anyway (for the 1st few metres at least, average speed of motor traffic in central London is about 10mph or something so often it actually makes sense for faster moving cycle traffic to move away 1st) and not being caught up in the traffic behind saves you stopping/starting etc as cars in front jostle around each other trying to change lanes etc and also you don't get left hooked.

ASLs and even better, cycle filter lights are great IMO, if they are enforced, but they're not, so they're basically a waste of green tarmac.

Your opinion would put you at odds to that of the experts though. If you're suffering with left hooks, that implies you're not taking the lane through junctions as you should be doing.

Porgy

BentMikey wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Personally I think it's far safer to get ahead of motorists, in general I find I can accelerate away from a junction faster than cars anyway (for the 1st few metres at least, average speed of motor traffic in central London is about 10mph or something so often it actually makes sense for faster moving cycle traffic to move away 1st) and not being caught up in the traffic behind saves you stopping/starting etc as cars in front jostle around each other trying to change lanes etc and also you don't get left hooked.

ASLs and even better, cycle filter lights are great IMO, if they are enforced, but they're not, so they're basically a waste of green tarmac.

Your opinion would put you at odds to that of the experts though. If you're suffering with left hooks, that implies you're not taking the lane through junctions as you should be doing.

Taking the lane through junctions is not the catch all remedy some people seem to think it is. Most junctions I travel through are 3/4 or even 6 lanes wide. There is nothing to stop a motorist from going into a different lane and then left hooking you. And that is what usually happens when I get left hooked.

I'd love to be able to take 2 or 3 lanes at once, alas it is sadly, physically impossible.