Nirvana and DJs half killed guitar music

mfin

Here's one for musicians.

The preamble here is that whilst Nirvana's song-writing is up-there, there's not a lot of skill in it guitar-wise... I wouldn't say it could be made better for what it is, but anyone who can play a guitar for 6 months and has got barre chords sussed could play most Nirvana songs.

Thing is Nirvana was a turning point, after that the biggest new guitar band was Oasis, and there's no skill in that either (again, same logic applies to not changing it).

A generation of kids grew up with this music to love and aspire too and those kids didn't seem to want to learn more than what they were listening too, and hence now there aren't many bands with much guitar skill in them. There's exceptions of course, such as Muse... and hundreds of exceptions when you step outside the big-selling artists into Metal, Jazz, whatever....

DJs now mean even less kids pick up guitars, and the musical legacy of kids wanting to be like the Libertines or The Arctic Monkeys or the current crop doesn't hold out much change.

Before Nirvana even the metal scene behind it had a fair amount of skill, good songwriters like Guns n Roses knew how to play and construct a song. Plus, going back a little further loads of prog rock virtuosity was the thing. Like the punk thing in the 70s being a 'just pick up and play', I think Nirvana and other bands at that time had some of this effect on non-vituosity but without the revolution that went with it.

Bands do what bands do, things move in circles, I wonder when there'll be a return to some skilled and brilliant guitar bands in the mainstream not just in the lesser genres, I expect it could be a while, particularly with the current music trends.

(oh, and an afterthought... the last guitar innovator IMO to appear was Tom Morello)

Wooliferkins

It doesn't scan as well as Video Killed the Radio Star

disgruntledgoat

Depends on what you see as the point of pop music. If you see it as being about expression of a feeling and idea or an image then there's nothing as thrilling as seeing a bunch of kids who can barely play thrashing their way through a brilliant 3 minute tune with passion.

If you're into hearing what a guitar can be made to sound like in the context of mainstream rock then the late 80s were probably your bag.

If you're looking for a mainstream sort of sound with both exellent songwriting and brilliant guitar work check out The Hold Steady. The first album (Almost Killed Me) has some amazing extended solos, Seperation Sunday has some slightly less free flowing but still impressive bar-band style guitar work and the 3rd (Boys and Girls in America) is probably the best of theirs for what you're looking for. Like a drunk E-Street band.

iainf72

Depends how much value you put on someone being able to play a guitar.

I put very little - So someone is technically proficient, big fat hairy deal. It doesn't mean they'll make good music. Is there any difference between a guitar and a machine being a guitar? Everything recorded these days will be Pro Tooled up to sound "right" anyway.

But if you look at innovators, look at bands like Battles. They're all very accomplished players.

I've gone from rock to metal to industrial to electronica to hip hop. They all offer something - There is good and bad.

gabriel959

iainf72 wrote:

Depends how much value you put on someone being able to play a guitar.

I put very little - So someone is technically proficient, big fat hairy deal. It doesn't mean they'll make good music. Is there any difference between a guitar and a machine being a guitar? Everything recorded these days will be Pro Tooled up to sound "right" anyway.

But if you look at innovators, look at bands like Battles. They're all very accomplished players.

I've gone from rock to metal to industrial to electronica to hip hop. They all offer something - There is good and bad.

What he said!

disgruntledgoat

iainf72 wrote:

But if you look at innovators, look at bands like Battles. They're all very accomplished players.

.

Or Mogwai, I rate Stuart Braithwaite as one of the best Guitarists of the last 10-15 years.

bigmat

Check out J Mascis / Dinosaur Jr if you like widdly guitar solos, he's probably the only guitarist of that ilk I really appreciate!

skyd0g

It depends on what you consider "a good guitarist".

Joe Satriani is undoubtobly a skilled guitarist, but his playing personally, leaves me pretty cold. No doubting his virtuosity, but he tends to cram-in a hundred notes into a solo, just because he can.

On the other hand, you've got guys like Paul Kossoff (of the band Free) or Angus Young (ACDC) who make great songs "simply".

Sometimes less is more.

IMHO

Escargot

Since when did the DJ half kill the guitar :?

I don't know of any DJ out there that fancied the guitar but then decided to get a set of decks instead.

I got into DJing after playing the drums and believe me the drums are hard to play but being good with a set of 1210's is equally difficult. I'm not talking about Pete Dong's skill (or lack of) but seriously talented hip hop or other DJ's like Shadow et al.

In any case I don't buy your theory. Pearl Jam were superb and from the same era. They might not be technically accomplished but good music isn't about having a 12" penis. It's about what you do with it

mfin

Kids are into the thought of making music by DJ'ing, that wasnt around yesteyear so much thats all.

I don't like widdly guitar solos by default, Id much rather listen to something fit a song, I like well crafted solos too though, depends on the music. For a little example Johnny Greenwood is no widdler but try playing his parts and you'll find widdling is in some cases probably easier.

Pearl Jam were great... the bands at the moment that are dominant seem to be less skilled thats all... Im not placing that as value on whether the music is good, just an observation. I could have put Oasis in place of Nirvana and the same would apply, a lot of influence on a lot of kids thats all.

Thought it might evolve into some good band talk and so on, which it seems to.

BigJimmyB

MFIN, who would you list as mainstraim guitar virtuosos then, from the 70's, 80's 90's and 2000's?

iainf72

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Or Mogwai, I rate Stuart Braithwaite as one of the best Guitarists of the last 10-15 years.

And you get stuff like Fennesz, which is lumbered under electronic but it a lot of guitar.

http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=157437

It's hard to describe how amazing this is with headphones on.

Godspeed You Black Emperor took guitars elsewhere, and of course who can forget Kevin Shields and My Bloody Valentine.

sheepworryingbhoy

The Grunge/sub-pop scene was never about fancy guitar playing, it was back to the old punk ethic that anyone could do. Often this spurns on bands whom may never have broke through.

I fear nowadays CrXp-Factor is a bigger threat. In saying that I often have a bunch of kids jumping about my house to Janes/Foos/Smashing Pumpkins etc via Guitar Hero on the PS3, so there may be hope for the future yet.....

cee

i would also disagree that any fool with a handful of barre chords can play nirvana songs.

an approximation of them yes, but to actually play them so that sound better than just an idiot with 3 chords...no

I did read a total guitar article a while back that argued that Cobain was actually one of the most heavily under-rated guitarists of modern times

random tunings and both lead and rythym parts...were some of the arguements....

Also...i would argue that guitar hero will do more damage to kids wanting to play the guitar than decks ever did or could.

Why would a kid who has spent ages getting good at guitar hero, then start from scratch on a real guitar?

Buckled_Rims

The 2 things IMHO that's killing guitar music are:

1. Technological advances in recording studios.
2. Less live music played in local pubs and clubs.

A possible 3rd is the insistent use of trying to copy past guitar heroes note for note, ending in bland guitarists who have not served a musical apprenticeship.

A footnote: I know a guitarist who can't even change his guitar strings, he takes it a guitar shop. Why learn when someone can do it for you.

mfin

BigJimmyB wrote:

MFIN, who would you list as mainstraim guitar virtuosos then, from the 70's, 80's 90's and 2000's?

Well, firstly, don't get me wrong Im not in it for 'virtuosity' ...I like music with no solos at all in it too, its not a 'solo thing', Im not precious about it in the slightest, its more an observation.

To answer your question directly... here's a few examples of people that I think really did add to their songs and could play real well, across these decades you mention, trying to keep it to relatively big bands... David Gilmour, Mark Knophler, Johnny Marr, Randy Rhoads, Slash, Johnny Greenwood, Tom Morello, Matt Bellamy

But there's stacks of bands where there's proficiency as part of the sound where I don't pick the people out but love the guitar lines such as Sugar and The Cure.

Its all about how it sits in the song really... my point was not that guitar music without skilled guitar in it has no merit or is no good, just that the level of skill comes from kids being inspired to pick up and play what they hear... I'm not saying its wrong or right its just a thought... like if you grow up loving The Pigeon Detectives, The Libertines and that band Johnny Borrell is in whatever theyre called then youd need to look outside of that approach to guitar if skills and techniques were what you wanted to pick up.

Im not saying a love of those bands stops you learning other stuff... but, when I see unsigned bands nowadays there's more people who can't play very well than there was 15 years ago, that's what I observe, Im pretty sure of it. I think that might be to do with people being surrounded by guitar music with some pretty neat players that seem to be lacking more recently to influence the new generations.

Thought it would be an interesting debate that's all.

PS.. what about a fender/gibson debate... some people are definitely in one camp or other with that debate, Ive got both myself, different guitars for different sounds.

mfin

cee wrote:

i would also disagree that any fool with a handful of barre chords can play nirvana songs.

an approximation of them yes, but to actually play them so that sound better than just an idiot with 3 chords...no

I did read a total guitar article a while back that argued that Cobain was actually one of the most heavily under-rated guitarists of modern times

random tunings and both lead and rythym parts...were some of the arguements....

Also...i would argue that guitar hero will do more damage to kids wanting to play the guitar than decks ever did or could.

Why would a kid who has spent ages getting good at guitar hero, then start from scratch on a real guitar?

Okay, bit of an exaggeration on my part but nailing every bit of a Nirvana soug is not daunting in the run of things, or getting the feel of it if you've been playing a while and are reasonably good. Kurt was defintely a good pop/punk songwriter thats for sure.

Vino

ees listening to The Meters for guitar funk played ees sounding simple is veery complex

skellator3

want good guitar look at this peter green of fleetwood mac fame early 70s and carlos santana, this id technical playing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQdyVt_i ... re=related

also what about newton falconer playing accoustic

Porgy

There's plenty of good guitar about if that's what you want - but just not necessarily within pop music at the moment. That's fine surely - I mean at 42 now I'm not exactly a big pop fan these days and just listen to what i like. Grew up after punk and in the first synth era - I hated guitars for a long time - to an extent guitars kill creativity.

Cheap guitars badly played but with plenty of style is my thing these days.

stfc1

mfin wrote:

Here's one for musicians.

The preamble here is that whilst Nirvana's song-writing is up-there, there's not a lot of skill in it guitar-wise... I wouldn't say it could be made better for what it is, but anyone who can play a guitar for 6 months and has got barre chords sussed could play most Nirvana songs.

Thing is Nirvana was a turning point, after that the biggest new guitar band was Oasis, and there's no skill in that either (again, same logic applies to not changing it).

A generation of kids grew up with this music to love and aspire too and those kids didn't seem to want to learn more than what they were listening too, and hence now there aren't many bands with much guitar skill in them. There's exceptions of course, such as Muse... and hundreds of exceptions when you step outside the big-selling artists into Metal, Jazz, whatever....

DJs now mean even less kids pick up guitars, and the musical legacy of kids wanting to be like the Libertines or The Arctic Monkeys or the current crop doesn't hold out much change.

Before Nirvana even the metal scene behind it had a fair amount of skill, good songwriters like Guns n Roses knew how to play and construct a song. Plus, going back a little further loads of prog rock virtuosity was the thing. Like the punk thing in the 70s being a 'just pick up and play', I think Nirvana and other bands at that time had some of this effect on non-vituosity but without the revolution that went with it.

Bands do what bands do, things move in circles, I wonder when there'll be a return to some skilled and brilliant guitar bands in the mainstream not just in the lesser genres, I expect it could be a while, particularly with the current music trends.

(oh, and an afterthought... the last guitar innovator IMO to appear was Tom Morello)

Or:

Nirvana (and grunge) saved guitar music from its own worst excesses and Kurt Cobain is the reason most people under the age of 35 picked up the instrument in the first place. It all depends on your perspective

Check out Biffy Clyro for interesting and inventive guitar music clearly inspired by Nirvana...

spanielsson

I like the comments about DJ's on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyRDDOpKaLM

iainf72

spanielsson wrote:

I like the comments about DJ's on this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyRDDOpKaLM

Big Rollins fan - Seen him doing talking gigs loads of times but he's completely wrong in this case.

Seen DJ Shadow play a few times and he's way better than most rawk bands.

spanielsson

I see classes of 12 year old kids using Cubase everyday making DJ FU-FU-FU-FUKCHEAD music day in day out.

I've seen DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Orbital, Underworld, The Prodigy blah blah blah... None of it even comes close to seeing bands like Jane's Addiction, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, Vernon Reid or any other real musician who has really had to work for their art.

Who will still be played, considered as inspiration or influential in 40-50 years time? Liam Howlett or Eddy Van Halen?!

Mettan

For me, Nirvana were irrelevant, almost laughable - in terms of American Indie music from that era, The Pixies are far more gifted both in terms of song-writing, compositions and musicality - The Pixies, in a sense, are not too far off from The Smiths in creating a large canon of great indie-songs (that's how good The Pixies were.....) - and The Smiths are not that far off from The Beatles (although I prefer The Smiths over The Beatles - far more creative in terms of harmony and possibly melody). The Smiths sound-world is far more lush, less-repetitive, more creative and ultimately richer (than The Beatles).

Mettan

spanielsson wrote:

Eddy Van Halen?!

Found it funny in the past when playing Jump whilst driving through town - initially, almost smirks of derision from people that someone's playing an 80's metal song when they should have dance music banging out :oops: - and then...... a strange look on their faces ...... as if to say........ actually.... this stuff sounds fookin awesome

iainf72

spanielsson wrote:

I've seen DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Orbital, Underworld, The Prodigy blah blah blah... None of it even comes close to seeing bands like Jane's Addiction, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, Vernon Reid or any other real musician who has really had to work for their art.
!

I've seen Janes live and they were great. Shadow is a musician wether Rollins likes it or not. He may work with samples but at the end of the day, whoever produces Rollins Band records does exactly the same in Pro Tools.

I remember when Endtroducing came out, Shadow is an instore somewhere in California and asked people to bring records along. So obviously people took obscure records and he managed to mix a Muppets record into his set.

In 50 years time, who will be more important, Aphex Twin or Van Halen (clue, it'll be Aphex) I also expect Endtroducing with be listed in the best albums listed for decades to come.

Prodigy et al, yeah, take it or leave it. But at the same time the vast majority of rock music is a pile of backside.

iainf72

Mettan wrote:

For me, Nirvana were irrelevant, almost laughable - in terms of American Indie music from that era, The Pixies are far more gifted both in terms of song-writing, compositions and musicality

Have I ever mentioned I know one of the engineers on Trompe Le Monde?

I think Cobain had a better gift for a pop song than Black Francis ever did. I find some of Nirvana's tracks amazing but a lot of it does nothing for me.

andy162

Kurt Cobain was a skilled guitarist, no doubt. He wasn't technically brilliant as a metal-head shred meister but had a knack with off kilter timing, non standard tuning & using drones & such. He also used a baritone guitar now and again half way 'tween a bass & a normal guitar. Also used an e-bow to good effect.

Granted, get the tabs & tuning off the net & a reasonably proficient player'll have them licked.... But it's the thinking up part where the skill lies.

Look at Wilco Johnson, dead easy riffs technically, but an ace guitarist.

Today if you are looking for "skilled" playing there's Jack White, Josh Homme, Matt Bellamy, Yorke/Greenwood( have a listen to Jigsaw Falls into Place...sounds easy enough but a bugger to do). Massive Attack's Angelo Brushini is great( he was lead geetar in The Blue Aeroplanes, check out Beatsongs. Fantastic guitar music). Bernard Butler too. Dudes from Interlol are good also.

I was in bands for years & one or 2 "did alright", I guess I am a decent strummist but personally I'm all for subtle. Skilled yes, flashy no.

I did have an overdrive pedal called " f@ck off" tho. Blow roofs off that bugger would!

Escargot

spanielsson wrote:

I see classes of 12 year old kids using Cubase everyday making DJ FU-FU-FU-FUKCHEAD music day in day out.

I've seen DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Orbital, Underworld, The Prodigy blah blah blah... None of it even comes close to seeing bands like Jane's Addiction, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, Vernon Reid or any other real musician who has really had to work for their art.

Who will still be played, considered as inspiration or influential in 40-50 years time? Liam Howlett or Eddy Van Halen?!

Sadly you're comparing things that are fundamentally impossible to compare. You can easily say the same thing about the bands you've listed as I quite like classical. Even the most basic chamber compositions with a few strings make Jimmy Page look like an infant playing guitar hero but that means nothing. Take it to orchestral level and there's no comparison with anything when you consider the complexity of arranging the various sections of an orchestra. In this respect will people still find Page/Plant an inspiration 300 years from now. Sadly not.

Sadly though I think you must be in some time warp as people like Juan Atikins/Kevin Saunderson/Derrick May have been inspiring people for years (how's 30 years for you ?)

Grandmaster Flash started out about 40 years ago and has inspired almost every modern DJ alive and along with his contemporaries brought Hip Hop to the nation. Like it or not Hip Hop has been massive and also carries with it break dancing and graff but I guess these aint real dancing or art either :roll:

reluctant

Trompe le Monde is my fave Pixies album.Weren't they great?
I can still remember where and when i first heard Nirvana though - i was transfixed and overjoyed by the fabulous noise of it all. Kinda metal, but kinda better than that, bit like the DKs were punk, but better.
Anyway, I'm no guitar player, and know nothing of these things, but I know how it makes me feel - and it's good.