What would you do in this situation

finchy

I was having a driving lesson this morning, and we were approaching a set of traffic lights on a two lane road. The left hand lane was closed for roadworks about 10 yards before the traffic lights started, and as I was approaching the lights they turned to amber. So I did my mirror checks before slowing down, but just as I was about to start braking, a BMW (surprise, surprise) switches into my lane, way too close, real tailgating t**t. I was doing about 25mph in a 30 zone.

So I only had a second to make up my mind. If I'd hit the brakes, I'm 95% sure that he would have smashed straight into the back of us, so I jumped the red light (it had only been red for about a second before I went through). My instructor was not too impressed, but he was even less impressed by the driver who then overtook me on the right, then cut across me to turn left.

The question is, was I in the wrong?

Legally, I know I was wrong, because it was his responsibility not to follow so closely, but from a safety point of view, there was a far greater risk of an accident if I had braked.

In these situations, is it best to play it by the book, or break the rules?

Stewie Griffin

:shock: If the light is red you stop, thats what it means. Cant believe you are asking if its ever ok for a car to go through a red light on a cycling forum

weedy1

Brake, let him rear end ya then claim not your insurance or car whats to think of?

Thing is after about 100,000 miles of driving you get enough experience to know before hand what the BMW is likely to do so you either
1) slow down before the works and let him past or
2) hog the f**K out of the road way before the works and generally drive like an ar*e so he KNOWs he's not getting past :P

the other thing is if it's marginal the other driver is gonna be ready with the anchors and *probably won't hit ya.




*unless its a young scamp in a corsa

friso

Hi, sounds to me that your quick thinking and reaction averted an accident. However in the eyes of the law you were in the wrong

On the flip side you could of collided with a innocent vehicle because you jumped the lights, also the BMW behind you also jumped the lghts because you did, also potentialy puting innocent drivers at risk

Obviously i wasn't there but i think the lesser of two evils would of been to stop at the lights as directed by the red light, if the BMW was to hit you you would of been in the right and no one else would potentially of been hurt

This is only my opinion but well done for your quick thinking

GiantMike

1. Stop

2. Get hit by BMW

3. Call Police and have your instructor tell the Police you acted legally and reasonably

4. Go to hospital and get an RTA report

5. Claim for whiplash

6. Buy £3000 Cervelo

stigofthedump

Have to agree with both the above.

My instructor always said you should be driving at a speed which allows you to stop, whatever might happen. If the roadworks are close to the lights you really should be ready for them to change.

Many years of riding a motorbike and now pushbikes means i always expect the worst.

Lastly, so what if he crashes into you, its only money not a life.

finchy

Thanks for the comments.

I think I'll follow GiantMike's advice and get the Cervelo.

Just for the info, I was going onto a one-way road, and I had a clear view of the other cars, and nobody was moving.

So next time I'll hit the brakes and go for compensation money, damn, wish I'd thought of that at the time.

GavH

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

EDIT: Should also point out that I failed my first HGV test for going through an AMBER light in Beverley twon centre. Instructor said I should have anticipated the change! Anyone who's ever driven a truck with air brakes will know how quickly even abruptly they stop the vehicle. Anyone behind me would have gone into the back of me, so I though going through on amber was ok. Apparantly not.

zedders

I did a motorcycle test a few years ago. I failed because some postie who came flying along in a 30 zone when I was pulling off from the kerbside having just done a u turn.

So even though it wasn't my fault the instructor failed me. I was right annoyed as he was following in a car (not on a bike like 95%), and one of the reasons I couldn't see far enough down the road was because of the instructor pulling up behind me and partly blocking my view! At the end of the test I complained when he said I had performed a dangerous maneuver, so he came up with a c0ck and bull story and failed me on something else!

Instructors are a funny breed. They are always right even if they are wrong!

finchy

BTW, hope nobody thinks that I'm the sort of person who would deliberately drive dangerously.

I always try to obey the law of the road whether I'm on my bike or in a car. This was an exceptional circumstance, and in a split second decision I chose safety over legality.

I've been turning it over in my mind all day, because I was unsure of whether or not this was the right thing to do.

I hate driving.

deptfordmarmoset

GavH wrote:

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

Yeh but, no but, it's a no-win situation. Instant fail if you jump, instant fail if BMW arse-ends you. Sometimes driving safely irrespective of the law is justified - though not in the law's eyes, of course.

I shocked my driving instructor a couple of times when I used faster-than-learner driver speeds - but I could always give a good reason, because I'd learned the hazards on the local roads while cycling. (And the only car accidents I've had since then have been when I've been fully stopped at red lights.)

Mothyman

last time it happened to me i attempted to gently stop at a speed which would avoif the collision and found myself just over the line when it went red.... i didnt feel any guilt, avoided a pain in the neck insurance claim etc and nobody got hurt. Maybe I'd have failed my test..but I'd do the same again

GiantMike

johnfinch wrote:

BTW, hope nobody thinks that I'm the sort of person who would deliberately drive dangerously.

With the fullest respect drivers only learn what is safe and what isn't with years of experience. It's different to riding a bike. My advice would be to do what is LAWFUL unless it's obviously and imminently dangerous.

In crossing the Red Light, had you hit another car, had you hit a cyclist or pedestrian, had you got caught by a traffic camera, had you been seen by a copper you'd be completely in the wrong.

Use the experience as a learning point and remember life is not black and white, but the law is when traffic accidents are concerned.

finchy

GiantMike wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

BTW, hope nobody thinks that I'm the sort of person who would deliberately drive dangerously.

With the fullest respect drivers only learn what is safe and what isn't with years of experience. It's different to riding a bike. My advice would be to do what is LAWFUL unless it's obviously and imminently dangerous.

In crossing the Red Light, had you hit another car, had you hit a cyclist or pedestrian, had you got caught by a traffic camera, had you been seen by a copper you'd be completely in the wrong.

Use the experience as a learning point and remember life is not black and white, but the law is when traffic accidents are concerned.

Yes, of course I am a very inexperienced driver, and upon reflection I should not have done it.

I really resent the fact that there are people who would deliberately drive recklessly and force me to make a choice in which both options were potentially dangerous, and the safer one was illegal.

bompington

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

GavH wrote:

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

Yeh but, no but, it's a no-win situation. Instant fail if you jump, instant fail if BMW ars*-ends you.

Why? If you are driving correctly, then I presume that you cannot fail just because some idiot drives into you.
Or looked at another way: "sorry officer, the reason I ploughed straight into the old lady was that I was worried the BMW behind me might hit me if I braked"

finchy

bompington wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

GavH wrote:

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

Yeh but, no but, it's a no-win situation. Instant fail if you jump, instant fail if BMW ars*-ends you.

Why? If you are driving correctly, then I presume that you cannot fail just because some idiot drives into you.
Or looked at another way: "sorry officer, the reason I ploughed straight into the old lady was that I was worried the BMW behind me might hit me if I braked"

Sorry, don't think I explained the situation clearly enough to begin with. Carrying on was definitely the safer option. There were no pedestrians, and I know from experience that the set of traffic lights is slow to change. Had I braked, it's not a case of the BMW might have hit us. He almost certainly WOULD have hit us. There are concrete bollards lining the road, and scaffolding where the works were being carried out. I really would not like to be shunted in that particular place. I should have mentioned that in my original post.

I wasn't asking which was the safest thing to do. I just wanted to know whether other people would choose to go for safer but risk being in the wrong, or more dangerous but have the law on their side. I agree with most of the posters on the subject that it would be better to go for what is legal.

(I'm not trying to justify my actions here, just clarifying my original question).

mrchrispy

hard on the breaks....if he hits you then feck it, not your fault...not evern your car (i assume).
he get to look a grade A twunt.

tri-sexual

because none of us were there with you whilst you carried out this potentially dangerous move and the only side of this story is from you, i feel that the person to ask is your driving instructor who should be fully aware of your surroundings and can advise you on the proper conduct whilst on the roads in such a situation. i am surprised that he /she did not prevent you from going over the red lights with the dual controls fitted to learner's cars. with due respects as a learner you are not experienced enough to make such dangerous decisions which may prove fatal to either yourselves or other road users no matter how many years you have been riding a bike or how experienced you feel you are. you should follow their instructions, there are too many people who know very little but think that they know best and will try to justify their poor actions (going through red lights) by blaiming others (bmw driver). if you were to end up in court in front of me for the killling of another motorist or pedestrian and used your arguement you have presented today ie. if i didnt go through the red lights then the bmw would have crashed into you- i'm sorry to say that this arguement would NOT stand and will be of little value and you should expect a very severe sentence. the number of times i have heard after an accident where the driver says "i didnt see him" applies. traffic laws are there for a reason and it is not up to an individual to pick and choose whether it applies to them.

finchy

tri-sexual wrote:

because none of us were there with you whilst you carried out this potentially dangerous move and the only side of this story is from you, i feel that the person to ask is your driving instructor who should be fully aware of your surroundings and can advise you on the proper conduct whilst on the roads in such a situation. i am surprised that he /she did not prevent you from going over the red lights with the dual controls fitted to learner's cars. with due respects as a learner you are not experienced enough to make such dangerous decisions which may prove fatal to either yourselves or other road users no matter how many years you have been riding a bike or how experienced you feel you are. you should follow their instructions, there are too many people who know very little but think that they know best and will try to justify their poor actions (going through red lights) by blaiming others (bmw driver). if you were to end up in court in front of me for the killling of another motorist or pedestrian and used your arguement you have presented today ie. if i didnt go through the red lights then the bmw would have crashed into you- i'm sorry to say that this arguement would NOT stand and will be of little value and you should expect a very severe sentence. the number of times i have heard after an accident where the driver says "i didnt see him" applies. traffic laws are there for a reason and it is not up to an individual to pick and choose whether it applies to them.

The instructor was steaming at the BMW driver, he didn't say anything about my part in it, and he's a very honest man - if I do something wrong he tells me. He didn't use dual controls because he saw the dangers of doing it.

I don't think that I know best, which is why I'm asking other people what would be the correct course of action, and I'm not trying to justify anything.

I know that what I did was illegal, I don't want to repeat it, and I won't repeat it. I don't want to break traffic laws. I hate that sort of thing. Having had this experience and discussion, I can see that it is always best to do the legal thing, even if that might be more dangerous.

deptfordmarmoset

bompington wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

GavH wrote:

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

Yeh but, no but, it's a no-win situation. Instant fail if you jump, instant fail if BMW ars*-ends you.

Why? If you are driving correctly, then I presume that you cannot fail just because some idiot drives into you.
Or looked at another way: "sorry officer, the reason I ploughed straight into the old lady was that I was worried the BMW behind me might hit me if I braked"

I don't know why and it's very unfair, but I gather, I actually asked my instructor, that the test authority's view is that you will have failed to complete the test. Hence the fail.

Meanwhile, I seem to be one of the few who thinks, given johnfinch's assessment of the road conditions, he made an experienced decision. Though a decision that would have led to a fail...

finchy

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

bompington wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

GavH wrote:

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

Yeh but, no but, it's a no-win situation. Instant fail if you jump, instant fail if BMW ars*-ends you.

Why? If you are driving correctly, then I presume that you cannot fail just because some idiot drives into you.
Or looked at another way: "sorry officer, the reason I ploughed straight into the old lady was that I was worried the BMW behind me might hit me if I braked"

I don't know why and it's very unfair, but I gather, I actually asked my instructor, that the test authority's view is that you will have failed to complete the test. Hence the fail.

Meanwhile, I seem to be one of the few who thinks, given johnfinch's assessment of the road conditions, he made an experienced decision. Though a decision that would have led to a fail...

What, so somebody runs into the back of me and I can fail my test? :shock:

shockedsoshocked

johnfinch wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

bompington wrote:

deptfordmarmoset wrote:

GavH wrote:

YOU were in the wrong to jump the red light - instant FAIL in the test if you did that.

How close the other guy is to your exhaust is nothing you need to concern yourself with too much. As the others have already said, if he hits you, it's automatically HIS fault.

Yeh but, no but, it's a no-win situation. Instant fail if you jump, instant fail if BMW ars*-ends you.

Why? If you are driving correctly, then I presume that you cannot fail just because some idiot drives into you.
Or looked at another way: "sorry officer, the reason I ploughed straight into the old lady was that I was worried the BMW behind me might hit me if I braked"

I don't know why and it's very unfair, but I gather, I actually asked my instructor, that the test authority's view is that you will have failed to complete the test. Hence the fail.

Meanwhile, I seem to be one of the few who thinks, given johnfinch's assessment of the road conditions, he made an experienced decision. Though a decision that would have led to a fail...

What, so somebody runs into the back of me and I can fail my test? :shock:

Other peoples action on the road can affect the outcome of your test, yes. As I found out this summer. Although the examiner was also an arsehole about it.

finchy

Actually, seeing as we have some legal expertise in tri-sexual, I'd like to put this question to you. Just so I can be clear in my own mind. I've had a look in the Highway Code, and I can't find the answer.

If I had braked, and he'd gone into the back of me, would I be guilty of dangerous driving?

The Highway Code seems to assume that all of the other road users are acting legally. In this situation, I would have made a conscious decision to do something dangerous due to somebody else's illegal driving.

In these circumstances, would I be in the clear?

finchy

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Other peoples action on the road can affect the outcome of your test, yes. As I found out this summer. Although the examiner was also an arsehole about it.

Sounds bad. What happened?

tri-sexual

you should ask your instructor on the correct actions you should take in such a situation because it is very difficult to know the exact conditions of the incident; traffic speed, road conditions inc the road works you mentioned, weather, daylight hours, visability etc etc the list goes on. your instructor can advise you and you should learn from his experience as a "professional".
one thing which he will not say is to go through the red lights, you will be breaking highway laws (unless you can prove that your actions are fully justified and by not going through the red lights would have resulted in something major- not applicable in this case and even then you would find it very difficult to convince a court of law). you can try to justify your actions by saying that you have never done it before or that your actions prevented an accident.
i know of a case where a bus driver was caught jumping red lights by traffic cameras but with numerous eye witnesses to support his case and very unusual circumstances on that road on that day the court couldnt prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that his actions were not justified so he was found to be not guilty but i must stress this is very rare and is in no way in any shape or form applicable in your case.
another case would give you a clearer understanding of the courts view of motorist jumping red lights: a car "rolled" slowly over a red light and stopped just beyond it so that he can allow an ambulance with sirens on an emergency call to get past him easier, even though the courts were sympathetic to the defendants actions he was nevertheless found guilty because his actions was dangerous and broke the law. it is up to the ambulance to get safely past the motorist and the ambulance on an emergency call was not an excuse for other motorists to disregard the highway laws.
a car travelling at 30mph has a stated stopping distance of 75 ft approx 6 car lengths, all motorists should be aware of this (i know that you state your estimated approx speed of 25mph) and they should allow "enough" space between themselves and other surrounding motorists, objects in case of an emergency (eg. in the case of an emergency stop by a leading car who braked because a child has ran infront of his car, the following car/s must ensure that he can stop safely and if they cant then they are at fault for driving without due care and attention/dangerous driving.
since you have local knowledge and know of the location of the lights i feel that you should have decreased your speed as you approached the lights and all other motorists should respond to your actions so if you drove correctly and slowed as you approached the lights and the bmw crashed into the back of you then you will not be guilty of dangerous driving, the onous is on the bmw to allow enough space between you and him in case of an emergency which if he crashed into you then clearly he has not, and it is him who may (or may not- depends on individual case) be guilty of dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention.
if however you were driving like an @rsehole and were "testbraking" to annoy or encourage following cars to crash (in the case of fraudulent personal injury claims) into you then it may be a different matter.
it is not true that it is an automatic failure if you crash during a test, accidents will happen and examiners know this (examiners will use dual controls if he feels accident is likely in order to prevent a crash but you will fail if he does) if an accident occurs during a test and it is unavoidable and there is "nothing you could have done" to prevent it and you are happy to continue your test and complete it then there is nothing from stopping you from passing your driving test (again fairly rare)
good luck with your driving test and sorry this post is abit lengthy but i have actually tried to condense it.

shouldbeinbed

johnfinch wrote:

BTW, hope nobody thinks that I'm the sort of person who would deliberately drive dangerously.

I always try to obey the law of the road whether I'm on my bike or in a car. This was an exceptional circumstance, and in a split second decision I chose safety over legality.

I've been turning it over in my mind all day, because I was unsure of whether or not this was the right thing to do.

I hate driving.

Shades of grey don't beat yourself up too much. no driver is totally guiltless in the eyes of the law - I bet there's not one driver on here thats never topped the speed limit.

I got pulled to bits when learning because I emergency stopped for a dog when there was a car 50 odd yards behind me. A split second gut reaction but in the eyes of the HC a dead dog is better than a rear end shunt.

I guess your instructor was either

a/ sticking rigidly to the rule and telling you off accordingly
b/ very pedantic
c/ unaware of how close thew BM W was
d/ in his experience thinks you overreacted and that there was safe stopping for you both.

They have to do 'a' or they're effectively giving as charter to people less scrupulus than you to take the p**s.

The only thing I'd suggest you failed to anticipate is a numpty coming towards the junction from left or right, out of your immediate vision, seeing the lights to be on the turn and maintaing speed not able to stop if you pop over just on red. In law they'd have right of way and you'd be a RLJ.

ademort

In all the years i,ve cycled have only ever been involved in one RTA and that was in 1979. A club member and i set off to meet up with our riding buddies at our regular meeting point. We were riding two abreast because the road was a dual carraigeway and should not have caused any problems for vehicles wishing to overtake. Suddenly i was hit from behind and crashed into my mate and within a fraction of a second we were both on the ground with wheels up againt the kerb. The driver was a student under instruction from a driving instructor and having parked the car safely the instructor came and apologised for the accident and told me( as my bike was damaged my mates was ok) that if i gave him a call he would have the bike repaired and he would pay, he blamed the student saying that "'she did not listen to him'' and it was her fault, he also said that she was a little shaken up by the accident and did not want to get out of the car.Of course, the following day i called and sure enough the driving instructor changed his tune, suddenly it was my fault, he had a hundred pounds worth of damage to his car and if i were to report the accident to the police he would hire a barrister and have me laughed out of court. Of course the case went to court and i won so the instructor had to pay the cost of fixing the bike and court costs.Some months later while in a nightclub i was approached by the woman driving the car, she told me that at the time of the accident the instructor was looking in his appointments book and did not even have his eyes on the road. She also told me that when the instructor got back into the car after speaking to my mate and i he said it was our fault and one of them,(me) had to walk home because his wheels are buckled, and he just laughed.The lady went on to tell me that when the police had spoken to the instructor, the instructor immediately called her at work and told her exactly what to say,.She was told not to mention the fact that he was looking at his appointments book at the time of the accident but to say that he told me to give tne cyclists plenty of room and just as she was overtaking, the one on the outside suddenly shot out into the middle of the road and she hit him, there was nothing she could do. she was also promised a couple of free lessons, ON the morning of the court case the instructor picked her up and brought her to court, he had a list of questions for her to answer, compiled by his solicitor which she had to answer and give the same answer as him.She told me that giving evidence in court was the worst day of her life, because she knew that almost everything that she had told police was a lie, but she had to tell the same lies in court or she would have looked a complete fool.This lady was very angry about the whole thing and said that if anything like that happened again she would just do the right thing,she also told me that at the time of the accident she wanted to apologise to me amd my mate but the instructor told her to stay in the car and he would deal with it, she said that if she had known that he blamed her and said i did not listen to him then she would never have gone along with the story in the first place so at least something positive came out of it all.
Ademort

finchy

OK, thanks for your comments everyone. But, ahem....

Having started all this conversation I've got an embarassing confession to make.

Following tri-sexual's advice I've just spoken to my instructor about it, and he tells me that the red light was on the other (closed) lane, and mine was green. :oops: He wasn't aware that I thought I'd gone through a red, and his being annoyed was for the BMW driver. So that explains why he didn't use dual controls.

My apologies for wasting your time, especially tri-sexual, who has gone to lengths to give me the legal POV.

Anyway, now at least I'll know what to do if that situation ever does arise.

shockedsoshocked

johnfinch wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Other peoples action on the road can affect the outcome of your test, yes. As I found out this summer. Although the examiner was also an arsehole about it.

Sounds bad. What happened?

Asked me to do a reverse around a corner, to the left. About 20 yards down the road i'm reversing into, on the right of me is another junction, completely obscured by a massive hedge. As I finished my manouver, a boy racer in a crappy corsa comes shooting straight out and passed me. I saw him and actually reacted faster than the examiner did (who acknowledged this back at the test center) and put the handbrake on, but because he was too close (I think the examiner actually quoted 20 yards) and I didn't have my hand brake on that counted as a major fault. So basically as soon as that car left that junction, no matter how fast I'd reacted, I'd have failed.

Apparently I was the first person to test this new test route, so my instructor had no idea i'd have to deal with a shitty junction like that. The worst thing was the driver who went past me stopped about 100 meters down the road and started talking to his mates on the path, then performed a u turn in front of me. I was pretty disappointed that the examiner didn't give me any leeway either.

I actually do hate driving, I'm only doing it so I can drive myself to races. I cycle and walk everywhere else. There are so many inconsiderate, incompetent and selfish drivers I'd rather not bother, because I will end up bludgeoning someone to death horribly with a crook lock :evil:

finchy

Sounds tough Shocked.

If you ever do get round to the bludgeoning of a moron in a car, make sure you put it up on youtube. That'll definitely brighten up our day.

Stewie Griffin

johnfinch wrote:

Following tri-sexual's advice I've just spoken to my instructor about it, and he tells me that the red light was on the other (closed) lane, and mine was green. :oops: He wasn't aware that I thought I'd gone through a red

So now its driving without due care and attention, kidding honestly