nutrition info

Ph!l_GeeWhizz

Evening all. First post so go easy :oops:
Basically been into biking for around 20 years but the past 5 years ive done very little. Just getting back into it, still riding my 20 year old bike (with a few upgrades) and am really enjoying it. Finding it hard to do as much as i want to what with work, dark nights and family, but when i'm out its great.
What i'm really interested in is the nutrition side of things but find it hard to afford all the special foods and supplements that are purpose made for the job. I stretch to using "Go" bars and also the SIS PSP22 powder which do seem to make a difference. What i'm after really is maybe some reference material to read in order to work out a realistic diet that will help with riding as i would ideally like to get into competing next year. I find recovery after a ride is probably me weakest point.
If anyone can point me in the right direction it would be greatly appriciated.
Phil .

jibberjim

You can make your own versions of the sports food, buying in bulk and cheaply from My Protein, see [url=http://jibbering.com/sports/[/url]my site on sports nutrition[/url] for recipes.

However, there's really very little difference between sports food and just good general food, it's a fair bit more convenient to just have powders, but it's not a whole lot better outside of actual competition when you're right at the limit of what you can digest.

Tenkfeet

Food for Fitness by Anita Bean is a good read .

Bhima

This will let you search for foods high/low in whatever you specify:

http://www.mealographer.com/food.php?action=search

You can use that to help you find "real" food which would replicate the effects of the expensive suppliments/powders/etc.

There's lots of stuff to learn, although these are the basics:

If it's recovery you're struggling with, you need to get protein ASAP - ideally 30-50g and another 40g at some other points in the day. Also, about 100g-150g of sugars/fast carbs after a ride will refuel you quickly, so your muscles are ready for the next ride. For me, it's a natural yoghurt/milk/banana/honey mix in the blender.

Hydration is essential. You sweat quicker than you can replace your fluids, so you're fighting a losing battle. The best thing you can do is drink constantly, every 5 minutes or so. Adding a pinch of salt to your drinks will help hydration.

When riding, slow-release starchy carbs will give you fuel for a longer period, like porridge. Fast carbs, like sweets/carb drinks give you a quick boost for a hard effort, which doesn't last very long. I combine both with honey sandwiches. Fat and protein slows down digestion.

Ph!l_GeeWhizz

Mmmm! Honey sandwiches!! Clear or set honey though?
Thanks for the info, guess i got a bit of reading to do.....

keef66

I don't think you need to spend money on the expensive "sports nutrition" stuff. (unless of course you want to) I tried the assorted ZipVit goodies with the free waterbottle, and found them all pretty disgusting.

Just eat a normal, healthy diet. Get plenty of protein and complex carbs, fresh fruit and veg, cut down on fats and refined sugars. Stay well hydrated. Get enough sleep, and include rest and recovery days in your training

On the bike I take fig rolls (=energy bars) and jelly babies (=gels), and fill my bottle with squash or watered down fruit juice (with a pinch of salt in the summer)

Summer recovery drink milk / yoghurt / banana / honey milkshake. In winter it's a pint of sweet tea and a couple of Hobnobs.

I don't race though.

Headhuunter

I think nutrition depends on the extent and intensity of your rides. If you're 20-30 mile rides at pootle pace you can probably get by on "standard" food like honey sandwiches and orange squash etc, however if you're doing high pace club rides of 50+ miles with plenty of hills, your body will probably need something more substantial. Sports drinks use maltodextrin rather than standard sugars/glucose/fructose etc which are less bio available.

I have been experimenting by buying raw ingredients from My Protein, I mix maltodextrin, electrolyte salts, choline and sometimes some protein powder (your body will start to burn protein as well as carbs if you push it hard and fast, if you don't consume protein, it will burn muscle). I used to try to do fast club rides of 50 or 60 miles on water, bananas and a couple of breakfast cereal bars and at the end would be completely wiped out. These days with proper sports drinks I can go further, faster and when I get home I am not finished for the day!

Ph!l_GeeWhizz

This is where i get lost with all the different terms and things you should have. If and when i do take it to the next level, then i'll probably start using them.
For now, my target is to get fit and do either the coast to coast ride or newcastle to edinburgh next year. Having the carbs and fluids and trying to get the protein in after a ride. Definately feel its helping as i can ride harder and recover quicker.
Dont get me wrong, i'm only doing 5-15 mile rides through the week but am seriously unfit.
Really enjoying it though!

Bhima

Don't overanalyze everything - just make sure you keep up the hydration and food while riding. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, as long as it's got enough carbs and low fat. Energy powders/gels can be replaced by honey and energy bars can be replaced by sandwiches/fruit/flapjacks.

If you don't sort out the food/drink while riding, your muscles will be in more pain at the end of the ride, compared to if you'd been keeping on top of things. You are therefore already losing when it comes to recovery because you've been falling behind with your "debt repayments". The last 30 minutes of my rides are usually easy spinning while I drink 750ml and eat a sandwich.

How much you need on the ride will depend on how hard you're going. If you feel hungry/thirsty, the general rule is that you should have eaten/drunk something about 20 minutes ago. It's too late.

On an average 5 hour ride, I get by on cheese/nutella/honey sandwiches (about 5 in total), a couple of bananas and between 4-7 litres of fluids. You can survive on much less if you're trying to lose weight or aren't going too hard. Just keeping a constant flow of fluids and energy moving through your body should be the number one priority. It doesn't really matter what you eat/drink, it's more about how and when you eat/drink.

Escargot

Bhima wrote:

You can use that to help you find "real" food which would replicate the effects of the expensive suppliments/powders/etc.

LOL.

And there was me thinking that supplements were replicating the food I was eating

I'm sure you meant that the other way round but I fear this is how things are going with supplements i.e. people thinking they are more nutritious than normal food

mrc1

Bhima wrote:

On an average 5 hour ride, I get by on cheese/nutella/honey sandwiches (about 5 in total), a couple of bananas and between 4-7 litres of fluids.

How many bottle mounts do you have on your frame?

Garry H

9, if he's using 750ml bottles :shock:

Assume he makes use of shops, the generosity of nearby households and streams though...

a_n_t

Bhima wrote:

Don't overanalyze everything

oldwelshman

Bhima wrote:

Don't overanalyze everything - just make sure you keep up the hydration and food while riding. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, as long as it's got enough carbs and low fat. Energy powders/gels can be replaced by honey and energy bars can be replaced by sandwiches/fruit/flapjacks.

If you don't sort out the food/drink while riding, your muscles will be in more pain at the end of the ride, compared to if you'd been keeping on top of things. You are therefore already losing when it comes to recovery because you've been falling behind with your "debt repayments". The last 30 minutes of my rides are usually easy spinning while I drink 750ml and eat a sandwich.

How much you need on the ride will depend on how hard you're going. If you feel hungry/thirsty, the general rule is that you should have eaten/drunk something about 20 minutes ago. It's too late.

On an average 5 hour ride, I get by on cheese/nutella/honey sandwiches (about 5 in total), a couple of bananas and between 4-7 litres of fluids. You can survive on much less if you're trying to lose weight or aren't going too hard. Just keeping a constant flow of fluids and energy moving through your body should be the number one priority. It doesn't really matter what you eat/drink, it's more about how and when you eat/drink.

7 Litres? !!! I would have to stop for a pixxss every 10 miles if I drank that much.
In winter I get by with 1 750ml bottle for about 50 to 60 miles and top it up on cafe stop.
Even in summer I use only 2.

Bhima

2 x 750ml on the bike
1 x 500ml in the jersey pocket.

750ml for 60 miles is not enough really. Pretty much all my rides are in the hills and hard so I sweat a lot and get dizzy if I don't replace those fluids. I fill up 3 or 4 times on my most regular route on various farms, cafes, people who live nearby and even one very pure stream.

If you think 7 litres is loads, some riders in a grand tour stage go through 15 in 4 hours!

a_n_t wrote:

Bhima wrote:

Don't overanalyze everything

I know Ant, I know.

jibberjim

Bhima wrote:

If you think 7 litres is loads, some riders in a grand tour stage go through 15 in 4 hours!

That includes the very large amounts they pour over themselves to assist in cooling. it is not what they drink in an easy ride around the north of england in the autumn.

Bhima

No, it's definately what they drink. I've heard this figure quoted from several different sources. According to the Cervelo Test Team's nutritionist, 12 L was normal during the Giro.

Seasons have nothing to do with it. I wear more layers in the cold, so my body temperature gets just as hot as the summer.

Lazarus

a_n_t wrote:

Bhima wrote:

Don't overanalyze everything

Wish i was on earlier i would have loved to have posted that beauty

Gratz Ant

Ph!l_GeeWhizz

I aint riding serious enough for that amount of fluids but do know what you mean about keeping hydrated.

oldwelshman

Bhima wrote:

2 x 750ml on the bike
1 x 500ml in the jersey pocket.

750ml for 60 miles is not enough really. Pretty much all my rides are in the hills and hard so I sweat a lot and get dizzy if I don't replace those fluids. I fill up 3 or 4 times on my most regular route on various farms, cafes, people who live nearby and even one very pure stream.

If you think 7 litres is loads, some riders in a grand tour stage go through 15 in 4 hours!

a_n_t wrote:

Bhima wrote:

Don't overanalyze everything

I could never drink 7 litres on a ride sorry.
I also know 750ml is enough for me on training rides up to 60 miles I do it every week more than once.
try racing, you will not se many riders drinking more than 1 litre in a race and that is hard effort.
You getting dizzy had nothing to do with not drinking fluids. If you get dizzy during a training ride go see a doctor.


I know Ant, I know.

vorsprung

Bhima wrote:

No, it's definately what they drink. I've heard this figure quoted from several different sources....

This is where you are going wrong. Let's have accurate information based on what you actually do IRL in actual training and racing. I can prove anything with "several different sources" and I'm sure you can too.

smithy1.0

60 Miles? 5 Sandwitches? I can do that on water and a bowl of cereal FFS.

Jon8a

Depends on lots, I'm sure there's some stuff on this site about it.
Most of the manufacturers have stuff although it is biased. My personal favourites in terms of taste are Science in Sport and High5.

I don't use anything other than water, bananas and cereal bars unless I'm doing something abnormal. This includes using electrolytes (nuun) in very hot weather and energy juice/bars on longer rides (60+ miles at race pace). For a typical club run of 60 miles I don't take anything special. I always think it's strange that people will take all sorts of expnsive energy products on short 2 hour rides.

ThreeLionsBrian

Jon8a wrote:

Depends on lots, I'm sure there's some stuff on this site about it.
Most of the manufacturers have stuff although it is biased. My personal favourites in terms of taste are Science in Sport and High5.

I don't use anything other than water, bananas and cereal bars unless I'm doing something abnormal. This includes using electrolytes (nuun) in very hot weather and energy juice/bars on longer rides (60+ miles at race pace). For a typical club run of 60 miles I don't take anything special. I always think it's strange that people will take all sorts of expnsive energy products on short 2 hour rides.

60Miles a short 2 hour ride?

giantsasquatch

Bhima wrote:

It doesn't really matter what you eat/drink, it's more about how and when you eat/drink.

I understand your points but that is wild. So if i eat haggis and drink pints of beer during the ride often enough then i be fine lol

Sure it matters what you eat and drink. as well as the timing. Too much solid food will take away your energy having to digest it.

Franco_OFFICIAL

Me ana my team hava espresso before ride. Manager ina team car bring er... bananas to us sometimes or pineapples. We stop every hour fora more espresso ana nutella bread roll.

Inna evening after massage we hava pasta.

Headhuunter

ThreeLionsBrian wrote:

Jon8a wrote:

Depends on lots, I'm sure there's some stuff on this site about it.
Most of the manufacturers have stuff although it is biased. My personal favourites in terms of taste are Science in Sport and High5.

I don't use anything other than water, bananas and cereal bars unless I'm doing something abnormal. This includes using electrolytes (nuun) in very hot weather and energy juice/bars on longer rides (60+ miles at race pace). For a typical club run of 60 miles I don't take anything special. I always think it's strange that people will take all sorts of expnsive energy products on short 2 hour rides.

60Miles a short 2 hour ride?

Quite. Slightly unrealistic methinks. Take this advice with a pinch of salt...

kieranb

from pez cycling and hammer nutrition:

Replacement vs. Replenishment Theory


Approaching the top of Col de La Bonette – nearly 75 miles into Day 6 of the Trans-Alpine Challenge

Hammer Nutrition determined the following ranges as ideal for most athletes the majority of the time for maintaining optimum cycling performance:

• Fluids: 20-25 ounces hourly (560 grammes – 710 grammes)
• Sodium chloride (salt): 300-600 mg hourly
• Calories: 240-280 calories hourly (1 kJ – 1.17 kJ)

There are some basic principals that are useful in organising a nutritional plan and can be summarised as follows:
• Performance cyclists cannot replace everything we expend during exercise, but we can keep ourselves going all day long if we replenish appropriately.

• Replenishment is supplying the body with what it can absorb and utilize. Using absorption/utilization factors instead of expenditure parameter gives us practical guidelines for refuelling.

• Not only is the “replace your entire expenditure” strategy (e.g., 800 cal/hr) physiologically poor, it is costly and unnecessary.

• As a rule of thumb, calorie/ water/electrolyte intake will run approximately one-third of expenditure during endurance exercise.

• Over-consumption maladies include a variety of Gastro-Intestinal and muscle system problems that could impair performance.

Hydration
It is fundamental to consume water – dehydration will severely impair performance; however, excess water intake is probably more common and can cause problems. Overloading with water can lead to a variety of issues such as bloating, and in extreme cases, water intoxication, which can be lethal.

So what are the recommendations by Steve Born of Hammer nutrition for a typical ride in the mountains?
• For the majority of cyclists, an intake of roughly one water bottle per hour (21-24 oz; 0.6-0.7 Litres) will serve. Lighter weight athletes may not need that much, while some larger athletes on a hot day might need to go higher.

kieranb

then again:

American College of Sports Medicine Position Stand: Exercise and Fluid Replacement

The rate at which fluid and electrolyte balance will be restored is also determined by the rate at which ingested fluid empties from the stomach and is absorbed from the intestine into the blood. The rate at which fluid leaves the stomach is dependent on a complex interaction of several factors, such as volume, temperature, and composition of the ingested fluid, and exercise intensity. The most important factor influencing gastric emptying is the fluid volume in the stomach (52,68,75). However, the rate of gastric emptying of fluid is slowed proportionately with increasing glucose concentration above 8% (15,38). When gastric fluid volume is maintained at 600 ml or more, most individuals can still empty more than 1000 ml ⋅h–1 when the fluids contain a 4%–8% carbohydrate concentration (19,68). Therefore, to promote gastric emptying, especially with the presence of 4%–8% carbohydrate in the fluid, it is advantageous to maintain the largest volume of fluid that can be tolerated in the stomach during exercise (e.g., 400–600 ml). Mild to moderate exercise appears to have little or no effect on gastric emptying while heavy exercise at intensities greater than 80% of maximal capacity may slow gastric emptying (12,15). Laboratory and field studies suggest that during prolonged exercise, frequent (every 15–20 min) consumption of moderate (150 ml) to large (350 ml) volumes of fluid is possible. Despite the apparent advantage of high gastric fluid volume for promoting gastric emptying, there should be some caution associated with maintaining high gastric fluid volume. People differ in their gastric emptying rates as well as their tolerance to gastric volumes, and it has not been determined if the ability to tolerate high gastric volumes can be improved by drinking during training. It is also unclear whether complaints of gastrointestinal symptoms by athletes during competition are a function of an unfamiliarity of exercising with a full stomach or because of delays in gastric emptying (57). It is therefore recommended that individuals learn their tolerance limits for maintaining a high gastric fluid volume for various exercise intensities and durations.

Conclusion
The primary objective for replacing body fluid loss during exercise is to maintain normal hydration. One should consume adequate fluids during the 24-h period before an event and drink about 500 ml (about 17 ounces) of fluid about 2 h before exercise to promote adequate hydration and allow time for excretion of excess ingested water. To minimize risk of thermal injury and impairment of exercise performance during exercise, fluid replacement should attempt to equal fluid loss. At equal exercise intensity, the requirement for fluid replacement becomes greater with increased sweating during environmental thermal stress. During exercise lasting longer than 1 h, a) carbohydrates should be
added to the fluid replacement solution to maintain blood glucose concentration and delay the onset of fatigue, and b) electrolytes (primarily NaCl) should be added to the fluid replacement solution to enhance palatability and reduce the probability for development of hyponatremia. During exercise, fluid and carbohydrate requirements can be met simultaneously by ingesting 600–1200 ml ⋅h–1 of solutions containing 4%–8% carbohydrate. During exercise greater than 1 h, approximately
0.5–0.7 g of sodium per liter of water would be appropriate to replace that lost from sweating.

So according to both articles a 750ml bottle per hour should cover it for most people in most cases?

Jon8a

I think you misunderstood. Maybe if I put it in a new paragraph.

I rarely use anything other than normal food and water for about 60 miles. If it's longer,hot or a race I consider special energy products.

I think it's strange when people go on relatively short rides and take gels, bars, drinks etc. with them, they're not needed in my experience. I didn't say (or intend to say) that 60miles is a 2 hour ride.

If you are riding 60 miles in 2 hours I'll let you take a gel or two.

mclarent

Jon8a wrote:

I think you misunderstood. Maybe if I put it in a new paragraph.

I rarely use anything other than normal food and water for about 60 miles. If it's longer,hot or a race I consider special energy products.

I think it's strange when people go on relatively short rides and take gels, bars, drinks etc. with them, they're not needed in my experience. I didn't say (or intend to say) that 60miles is a 2 hour ride.

If you are riding 60 miles in 2 hours I'll let you take a gel or two.

lol!

In the spirit of "lets tell everyone what I consume" - for a 50 mile ride I have a big bowl of museli (sp?) 30-45 mins before I leave, along with a tall drink of OJ / water mixed before I leave, take 1.75l of oj/water mix and a bannana or jam sarnie with me, which is adequate for a 3 hour ride for me. I eat something pretty quickly after I get back to refuel, usually pasta, noodles or a bacon sarnie (guilty pleasure!)

Back to OPs question - 5-15 miles - guessing about 12mph avg speed? Don't worry about it, one bottle of fruit juice / water mix and a snack is fine for that kind of distance given your stated level of fitness IMO, but definately take more liquids if you feel / end up dehydrated. Good test is how long it is til you pee and what colour it is after your ride (should be pale straw like colour if your're adequately hydrated). Add more as you add distance / feel you need it.

That Anita Bean book mentioned above is very good if you are really interested in more than just opinions on a message board :shock: