Kloden coughs up

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

dennisn wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Yes Dennis but he's not faced a sporting sanction which could've emerged from a criminal case.

I couldn't care about the criminal case but he's dodged getting a ban for doping.

What would you, or any one of us, have done in his situation???? Roll over and play dead???? Every one of us is going to be trying for the lightest sentence for whatever
"crime"(for lack of a better word) we have committed, be it speeding to drunk driving to murder. Who out there is going to stand there and say "throw the book at me, I deserve it"?

Sport is supposed to be played on a level playing field, where all the rules apply equally, no?

In a perfect world YES. In this world NO. Ever since sport was "invented" people have been looking for ways to come out ahead of the rest. I remember someone mentioning
how pool players used to take beta blocker drugs(a blood pressure med) so that they could stay calmer and respond to pressure better. I take it, maybe I should break out the
old cue stick and give it a try.
In any case all that can be done is find out who's using "illegal" "things" to gain this advantage and deal with them according to the laws of their various countries. Not an easy task, yet there seems to be progress being made. Although not enough for some, but that brings me back to the perfect world again.

iainf72

dennisn wrote:

In any case all that can be done is find out who's using "illegal" "things" to gain this advantage and deal with them according to the laws of their various countries. Not an easy task, yet there seems to be progress being made. Although not enough for some, but that brings me back to the perfect world again.

You're confusing laws of the land with rules of sport.

Would you think Kloden paying this fine is an admission of guilt? Well, many would but in the laws eyes it's not. And now the case has been closed so the sporting bodies can't punish him. I could care less about the legal case but by allowing him to buy his way out of it he's nulled any chance he could get a sporting sanction.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

dennisn wrote:

In any case all that can be done is find out who's using "illegal" "things" to gain this advantage and deal with them according to the laws of their various countries. Not an easy task, yet there seems to be progress being made. Although not enough for some, but that brings me back to the perfect world again.

You're confusing laws of the land with rules of sport.

Would you think Kloden paying this fine is an admission of guilt? Well, many would but in the laws eyes it's not. And now the case has been closed so the sporting bodies can't punish him. I could care less about the legal case but by allowing him to buy his way out of it he's nulled any chance he could get a sporting sanction.

It's an admission of guilt when I pay a speeding ticket. To be honest I bought MY way out. So yes, he admits guilt by paying the fine. Just like other people do. His case is nothing special except that there are some people who believe that sports people must be accountable to some HIGHER law than the rest of us. Why???? You tell me???? You're the one demanding more, more, more. He's paid the price required by law. You, me, and everyone else knows he's guilty. I realize you want MORE punishment but that's not going to happen. He's back in cycling(if he chooses) and like anyone in a position like his, he will probably be watched closely(sort of like being on parole). For me that's it. Nothing more to be done. Not that I was thinking to DO anything anyway. I know a few people on this forum didn't GET what they wanted for him but that's their problem. I think they're obsessing over this kind of stuff just a bit too much. Looks like he might race again soon
and there is nothing you, I, or them can do about it. If he gets caught again then he gets caught again and looses even more money(at the very least).

iainf72

Did you read what I wrote at all?

Athletes are subject to the rules of their sport and the rules of a country. Two different things. In this case, Kloden has managed to scupper the chance of being punished by the sporting body which is what's of interest to me.

I couldn't give a toss about a criminal case in Germany. But the knock on effect sits badly with me.

SpaceJunk

iainf72 wrote:

Yes Dennis but he's not faced a sporting sanction which could've emerged from a criminal case.

I couldn't care about the criminal case but he's dodged getting a ban for doping.

As much as I would like to see Kloden face up to some form of investigation; you can't blame him for trying to avoid that.

The real issue and our annoyance should be at the powers that be. The fact he has dodged a bullet (at the least an investigation) shows just what a toothless tiger the UCI really is.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

Did you read what I wrote at all?

In this case, Kloden has managed to scupper the chance of being punished by the sporting body which is what's of interest to me.

Why would Kloden NOT "scupper the chance of being punished by....."? He's going to do what the rest of us would do. Try and get out of this "mess" with the least impact to himself. What did you think he would do? I mean, what would you do? Pay a fine or loss
your livelyhood? Not that tough of a choice. Add to that the fact that he runs his life and not cycling fans and you have an easy decision. Pay the fine - ride again. Don't make that mistake again. Not fair you say? Maybe, but the law says differently. There are usually options in life and in a case like this I don't follow how you would think that someone
would just roll over and let the powers that be do what they will to you. No, you fight.
Right or wrong you fight it and try to get the best for yourself.

afx237vi

Dennis, you know this is a pro cycling forum, right? What do you expect cycling fans to say when we see a rider using a legal technicality to avoid a sanction? "Ah, good ol' Klodi, dodged another bullet like a good'un"?

What do you think this does to the credibility of the sport?

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

Dennis, you know this is a pro cycling forum, right? What do you expect cycling fans to say when we see a rider using a legal technicality to avoid a sanction? "Ah, good ol' Klodi, dodged another bullet like a good'un"?

What do you think this does to the credibility of the sport?

It's not about what cycling fans think or credibility of the sport. It's about what one person does to avoid "prosecution"(for lack of a better word) and / or cut down on whatever punishment may be dealt out to him. It doesn't matter what "fans" think should or shouldn't be done or how all this "mess he was in" affects the credibility........ This is about getting out with the least amount of personal "damage". It's what we would all try to do. It may not be the correct or right thing to do, in lots of peoples minds, but looking out for number 1 is usually what people see as important. I understand what you're saying and agree pretty much that it's not a great thing for cycling but..........

afx237vi

I know what you're saying too - it's natural for Kloden for take the self-preservation option, but it's also natural for the fans to think it stinks. Such is life.

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

I know what you're saying too - it's natural for Kloden for take the self-preservation option, but it's also natural for the fans to think it stinks. Such is life.

I like the way you put it all in one sentence. I gotta learn to quit babbling on and get to the point a little quicker. On the other hand my typing is getting better. I've gone from totally pathetic to just pathetic.

knedlicky

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Again. Where are the UCI, when you need them?
We hear from them, when they are not required, but get silence, when they should be heard.

This is the thing, one might hope the UCI would to try and investigate/take action themselves as part of keeping their own house in order, rather than relying on some public prosecutors to do the dirty investigatory work for them.

knedlicky

afx237vi wrote:

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

I find it completely baffling how the German legal system allows its citizens to buy themselves out of criminal investigations.

To me paying your way out is justice. If I get a speeding ticket here in the states it is going to cost me money, maybe around $150 dollars.

The speeding ticket analogy only works if it's equal for all riders in all countries. Kloden and Ullrich effectively bought themselves out of an investigation because the German legal system allowed them to do so. Someone like Basso didn't get a chance to do that, so had to sit on the sidelines for 2 years.

You misunderstand if you think Kloeden bought himself out of a criminal investigation. It wasn’t, rather it was a civil dispute he bought himself out of. We all think the evidence included doping, but for all we know, maybe the public prosecutor diidn’t have overwhelming proof, and could have just as equally been going to base his case on falsified bills for reimbursement, or whatever.

You can’t compare the situations of Basso and Kloeden, and then suggest Basso got comparatively a raw deal, because Basso wasn’t up in civil court, he was before his cycling federation.

afx237vi wrote:

However, that doesn't make it fair, and it doesn't mean we should all just sit back and shrug our shoulders. Sport is supposed to be played on a level playing field, where all the rules apply equally, no?

The rules of the sport do apply to Kloeden, which is why he's still around. It’s up to the sporting bodies to check they are being applied fairly, not some country’s legal system to do leg-work which the sport authorities then grab to use.


If it’s any consolation, Kloeden may not be yet able to sleep soundly - wasn't there a rumour that the Swiss antidoping agency might still get involved and wanted to see the Freiburg report? I think Kloeden has had a Swiss licence for a few years (although perhaps not in 2006 when the doping trip with Sinkewitz was supposed to have taken place, thus why the BDR could have also got involved about that incident).

blazing_saddles

So, now it's official. It's all gone away.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kloden- ... estigation


I find the German attitude incredibly hard to fathom.
On the face of it, they are the most anti-doping hard liners on the planet.
German tv cancels their national tour. All their media coverage pulled from the Tour, due to ongoing doping revelations surrounding the race.
Endless moral preaching in their press.

Yet, when it comes to dishing out justice to an implicated rider, it's a quick back hander to effectively turn a blind eye. :?

finchy

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Dennis, you know this is a pro cycling forum, right? What do you expect cycling fans to say when we see a rider using a legal technicality to avoid a sanction? "Ah, good ol' Klodi, dodged another bullet like a good'un"?

What do you think this does to the credibility of the sport?

It's not about what cycling fans think or credibility of the sport. It's about what one person does to avoid "prosecution"(for lack of a better word) and / or cut down on whatever punishment may be dealt out to him. It doesn't matter what "fans" think should or shouldn't be done or how all this "mess he was in" affects the credibility........ This is about getting out with the least amount of personal "damage". It's what we would all try to do. It may not be the correct or right thing to do, in lots of peoples minds, but looking out for number 1 is usually what people see as important. I understand what you're saying and agree pretty much that it's not a great thing for cycling but..........

2 questions here - first it is natural that Kloden will try to avoid justice, as many others would.

The second, which is what is really annoying people, is the fact that he was allowed to buy himself out of it - it's the corrupt system which posters on here seem to be so angry about, rather than Kloden's individual actions..