Kloden coughs up

iainf72 · October 2009

He's paid the Bonn prosecutor a €25K fine for the involvement he didn't have with the Freiburg clinic.

Or did have. But he did nothing wrong.

Now. colour me stupid but if you've done nothing, why do you pay a fine?

iainf72 · October 2009

Ahhh, on payment of the fine it appears they'll close investigations.

Nifty

andyp · October 2009

So €25k, which is probably less than a month's wages for Kloden, means he is free to continue his career for another few years? Nice work if you can get it.

Quite why you'd pay a fine if you have done nothing wrong escapes me. One assumes there was no admission of guilt attached to the fine, thus preventing the BDR from acting?

afx237vi · October 2009

Ullrich did something similar last year:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/j ... fine-15787

Although I find it completely baffling how the German legal system allows its citizens to buy themselves out of criminal investigations. Justice that depends on the size of your wallet is not justice.

iainf72 · October 2009

Correct. He maintains he did nothing wrong but thought he'd sling them 25K to make sure they didn't make something up.

Ullrich also bought his way out I think

frenchfighter · October 2009

This is pretty disgusting. Gioing to the Shack isn't he...

Ullrich and Rudy Pevenage paid up.

iainf72 · October 2009

Cyclingnews catches up with me

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kloden- ... oping-case

blazing_saddles · October 2009

Hence to be known as; "The Bonn Con"?
Pat could do with a debt collector like him. :roll:

dave_1 · October 2009

dissapointing. Julich, Cadel Evans were in that team too and Rogers ... surely Kloeden can't be welcome at shack or TDF anymore? He's guilty as hell now

iainf72 · October 2009

Ahh, but he's not Dave.

There is no case pending against him and no investigation now either. He's basically pure as the driven snow

dave_1 · October 2009

iainf72 wrote:

Ahh, but he's not Dave.

There is no case pending against him and no investigation now either. He's basically pure as the driven snow

sadly he's given massive credibility to Pat Sinkewtiz's claims now...where do Bobby Julich and Cadel Evans fit in if this really was team wide doping? Mick Rogers, are you a blood doper??.. is my question...Sinkewitz claims AK and MR were in the cars that made the trip to the clinic at 06 TDF and Sinkewitz is clearly not making it up if AK pays 25k to make it go away

blazing_saddles · October 2009

It's as good as a federal case of blackmail.
Odd sense of priorities, to say the least, from the Germans.
No crime, no fine.
So, I have to agree with Dave.
It's as good as an admission of guilt and he should get the Shack cold shoulder.....
.....but, we all know he probably won't.

iainf72 · October 2009

Evans talked about T-Mobile and alluded to what used to happen and how he didn't want to be part of it. That's a lot of reading between the lines though.

Rogers has not been named in the reports but they've only been interested in German athletes and he had his own medical help, I mean training plans, during that time

dave_1 · October 2009

Blazing Saddles wrote:

It's as good as a federal case of blackmail.
Odd sense of priorities, to say the least, from the Germans.
No crime, no fine.
So, I have to agree with Dave.
It's as good as an admission of guilt and he should get the Shack cold shoulder.....
.....but, we all know he probably won't.

wonder if ASO will take a stance against Andres Kloden now? I hope so...even if shack is welcome of old dopers....surely ASO would not be able to exclude Vino and Kloeden in...

blazing_saddles · October 2009

Well, the 2008 ASO would definitely not send out the invite.
The 2009 version, still might.

I guess we'll now see whos got the real clout and is prepared to use it.

Considering this is now much the same thing that Ullrich went through.....it stinks.

SpaceJunk · October 2009

iainf72 wrote:

Evans talked about T-Mobile and alluded to what used to happen and how he didn't want to be part of it. That's a lot of reading between the lines though.

Rogers has not been named in the reports but they've only been interested in German athletes and he had his own medical help, I mean training plans, during that time

Reading between those lines; I get the same impression as you with Evans.

Rogers; here in Australia the media sweep it under the carpet.

Aust media is amazing - whenever a swimmer from anywhere breaks a world recorder (especially if it belong to Ian Thorpe), they dig the dirt looking for a doping case against them. Of course, they believe doping is a nationality issue - no Australian in any sport would so so.

I'm not saying Rogers doped or not, I'd just like someone to ask him some tough questions about his time at T-Mobile.

Iain, those 'training plans' did help him in 07 though. Not sure why he can't capture that form again.

jim one · November 2009

SpaceJunk wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Evans talked about T-Mobile and alluded to what used to happen and how he didn't want to be part of it. That's a lot of reading between the lines though.

Rogers has not been named in the reports but they've only been interested in German athletes and he had his own medical help, I mean training plans, during that time

Reading between those lines; I get the same impression as you with Evans.

Rogers; here in Australia the media sweep it under the carpet.

Aust media is amazing - whenever a swimmer from anywhere breaks a world recorder (especially if it belong to Ian Thorpe), they dig the dirt looking for a doping case against them. Of course, they believe doping is a nationality issue - no Australian in any sport would so so.

I'm not saying Rogers doped or not, I'd just like someone to ask him some tough questions about his time at T-Mobile.

Iain, those 'training plans' did help him in 07 though. Not sure why he can't capture that form again.

To be fair to Mick, he did get a top 10 in the Giro this year; which basically matchs his top 10 in the 2006 tour in terms of what riders were ahead of him. He does not ride like a 3time world TT champ however!!

dave_1 · November 2009

wonder if the owners of radioshack know Arsmtrong is going to try and bring them in a rider who bought his way out of a doping ban? I hope this sponsor read the news...had Kloden sued, that would have been enough...but to pay up to avoid prosecution....that's hard to accept

blazing_saddles · November 2009

The real irony is, had they left him at Astana, McQuaid might now have the leverage to pull their PT pass and get Contador out of jail.

Dave: I think Armstrong will put on his hard hat and just ignore any flack. I don't think the sponsors will apply too much pressure.

secretsqirrel · November 2009

Blazing Saddles wrote:

The real irony is, had they left him at Astana, McQuaid might now have the leverage to pull their PT pass and get Contador out of jail.

Dave: I think Armstrong will put on his hard hat and just ignore any flack. I don't think the sponsors will apply too much pressure.

He never tested positive. That should do for Lance.

dave_1 · November 2009

Blazing Saddles wrote:

The real irony is, had they left him at Astana, McQuaid might now have the leverage to pull their PT pass and get Contador out of jail.

Dave: I think Armstrong will put on his hard hat and just ignore any flack. I don't think the sponsors will apply too much pressure.

has he definitely signed for the shack yet? I think maybe JB has an agreement to take Kloeden from Astana with one or two others, but not a contract with shack as yet? They should have no truck with Kloden now...maybe they are not as out of touch as we think though I guess what you say is more likely

intothe12 · November 2009

SecretSqirrel wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

The real irony is, had they left him at Astana, McQuaid might now have the leverage to pull their PT pass and get Contador out of jail.

Dave: I think Armstrong will put on his hard hat and just ignore any flack. I don't think the sponsors will apply too much pressure.

He never tested positive. That should do for Lance.

we will get the same bullsh*t from those in power saying that there was no offical positive test, that he was not charged with anything, innocent until proven guilty blah blah blah, but it is clear to the general public or to anyone with a shred of common sense that you dont pay 25k for the good of your health. One of the main problems with the teams, riders, UCI, Mcquaid etc.. is the ignoring of this type of thing that destroy the image of the sport. I have nearly more sympathy with a rider caught for doing drugs, admits guilt and serves a ban than someone who "gets away with it" - there should be more moral outrage in the cycling press.

knedlicky · November 2009

I don’t understand why there is such indignation as expressed here about this development. Out-of-court settlements are often questionable solutions with respect to establishing the truth, but on the other hand they don’t burden down the legal system with what are basically civil disputes between opposing parties.

Kloeden isn’t paying the ‘fine’, as many seem to think, so that a criminal court case directly about his doping is dropped, rather so that a court case of fraudulent behaviour in sport to the disadvantage of his former employer, the T-Mobile cycling team, is dropped. Doping as sport fraud isn’t a crime in Germany (nor in most lands, I think, Italy excepted), so Kloeden couldn’t be found guilty based on his doping alone.

Although his doping would have came to light had the case gone ahead, I’m not at all sure how well the fraudulent behaviour charges against him would have stuck, because he didn’t make gain from T-Mobile by deception, and I doubt T-Mobile suffered damages from his behaviour - two pre-requisites for charges of fraud to stick are 'gain by misrepresentation' and 'damages suffered by the other party'.
I think he would have been found 'not guilty', just his image tarnished when the doping was confirmed. Believing he would be found 'not guilty' may have influenced the public prosecutor to accept a deal.

What Kloeden clearly wanted to avoid was the possible consequences, if the UCI, BDR, ASO, etc, decided to take action, when the truth about his doping became known. Although I don’t want to defend him, to my knowledge, no other riders suspected of doping have ever been threatened with similar court cases, and thus to have their doping practices revealed in court as evidence (not as crime), so why should Kloeden (or Ullrich who went the same route, paying a fine) go through this and not others?

I feel the public prosecutor could have asked a bit more, though – Kloeden got away lightly with 25,000 Euro, when Ullrich reputedly paid 10 times that figure.

dennisn · November 2009

knedlicky wrote:

I don’t understand why there is such indignation as expressed here about this development. Out-of-court settlements are often questionable solutions with respect to establishing the truth, but on the other hand they don’t burden down the legal system with what are basically civil disputes between opposing parties.

Kloeden isn’t paying the ‘fine’, as many seem to think, so that a criminal court case directly about his doping is dropped, rather so that a court case of fraudulent behaviour in sport to the disadvantage of his former employer, the T-Mobile cycling team, is dropped. Doping as sport fraud isn’t a crime in Germany (nor in most lands, I think, Italy excepted), so Kloeden couldn’t be found guilty based on his doping alone.

Although his doping would have came to light had the case gone ahead, I’m not at all sure how well the fraudulent behaviour charges against him would have stuck, because he didn’t make gain from T-Mobile by deception, and I doubt T-Mobile suffered damages from his behaviour - two pre-requisites for charges of fraud to stick are 'gain by misrepresentation' and 'damages suffered by the other party'.
I think he would have been found 'not guilty', just his image tarnished when the doping was confirmed. Believing he would be found 'not guilty' may have influenced the public prosecutor to accept a deal.

What Kloeden clearly wanted to avoid was the possible consequences, if the UCI, BDR, ASO, etc, decided to take action, when the truth about his doping became known. Although I don’t want to defend him, to my knowledge, no other riders suspected of doping have ever been threatened with similar court cases, and thus to have their doping practices revealed in court as evidence (not as crime), so why should Kloeden (or Ullrich who went the same route, paying a fine) go through this and not others?

I feel the public prosecutor could have asked a bit more, though – Kloeden got away lightly with 25,000 Euro, when Ullrich reputedly paid 10 times that figure.

+1 Nicely put.

dennisn · November 2009

afx237vi wrote:

Ullrich did something similar last year:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/j ... fine-15787

Although I find it completely baffling how the German legal system allows its citizens to buy themselves out of criminal investigations. Justice that depends on the size of your wallet is not justice.

To me paying your way out is justice. If I get a speeding ticket here in the states it is going to cost me money, maybe around $150 dollars. Now this may not sound like much to you,
but I'm not "rich", and it sure is a deterrent to me to not speeding again(even though it will probably happen). Money is extremely important to people and while you may think that
one million euros is "pocket change" to Ullrich, I'm betting he thinks otherwise. That's a whole lot of money no matter who you are. One of the post's on here said something to the effect of "it's only a months salary for him"(referring to Kloden). I don't know about the rest of you, but a months salary is not something I'd want to lose no matter how much I made.

iainf72 · November 2009

Yes Dennis but he's not faced a sporting sanction which could've emerged from a criminal case.

I couldn't care about the criminal case but he's dodged getting a ban for doping.

blazing_saddles · November 2009

I'll bet Vino, Basso, Di Luca etc would happily have coughed up 25 grand to avoid a two year lay off.
On man's sporting fraud, is another man's dope cheat.

If Ullrich was made to climb off, in this manner, the so too, should Kloden.

As it is, he will carry on, as if nothing has happened and, in effect, it hasn't.

Meanwhile, he gets to keep an unblemished record, having in effect, just held his hand up to blood doping.
Again. Where are the UCI, when you need them?
We hear from them, when they are not required, but get silence, when they should be heard.

dennisn · November 2009

iainf72 wrote:

Yes Dennis but he's not faced a sporting sanction which could've emerged from a criminal case.

I couldn't care about the criminal case but he's dodged getting a ban for doping.

What would you, or any one of us, have done in his situation???? Roll over and play dead???? Every one of us is going to be trying for the lightest sentence for whatever
"crime"(for lack of a better word) we have committed, be it speeding to drunk driving to murder. Who out there is going to stand there and say "throw the book at me, I deserve it"?

afx237vi · November 2009

dennisn wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Ullrich did something similar last year:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/j ... fine-15787

Although I find it completely baffling how the German legal system allows its citizens to buy themselves out of criminal investigations. Justice that depends on the size of your wallet is not justice.

To me paying your way out is justice. If I get a speeding ticket here in the states it is going to cost me money, maybe around $150 dollars. Now this may not sound like much to you,
but I'm not "rich", and it sure is a deterrent to me to not speeding again(even though it will probably happen). Money is extremely important to people and while you may think that
one million euros is "pocket change" to Ullrich, I'm betting he thinks otherwise. That's a whole lot of money no matter who you are. One of the post's on here said something to the effect of "it's only a months salary for him"(referring to Kloden). I don't know about the rest of you, but a months salary is not something I'd want to lose no matter how much I made.

The speeding ticket analogy only works if it's equal for all riders in all countries. Kloden and Ullrich effectively bought themselves out of an investigation because the German legal system allowed them to do so. Someone like Basso didn't get a chance to do that, so had to sit on the sidelines for 2 years.

Buying yourself out of an investigation - how is that any different from bunging the dope tester a brown envelope stuffed with cash when he rocks up on your doorstep? "I'm clean, honest, here's €25k to prove it."

afx237vi · November 2009

dennisn wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Yes Dennis but he's not faced a sporting sanction which could've emerged from a criminal case.

I couldn't care about the criminal case but he's dodged getting a ban for doping.

What would you, or any one of us, have done in his situation???? Roll over and play dead???? Every one of us is going to be trying for the lightest sentence for whatever
"crime"(for lack of a better word) we have committed, be it speeding to drunk driving to murder. Who out there is going to stand there and say "throw the book at me, I deserve it"?

We'd all do the same as Kloden, I have no doubt about that whatsoever. It's the same as MPs fiddling their expenses. We act outraged, but we know we'd all do the same.

However, that doesn't make it fair, and it doesn't mean we should all just sit back and shrug our shoulders. Sport is supposed to be played on a level playing field, where all the rules apply equally, no?

sampras38 · November 2009

iainf72 wrote:

Correct. He maintains he did nothing wrong but thought he'd sling them 25K to make sure they didn't make something up.

Ullrich also bought his way out I think

Well Ulrich is right back in the shit isn't he? All those trips to Spain have finally caught up with him..;-)

Kloden coughs up

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