why are there no black cyclists ?
Comments
-
most kids get into sport, not because they think they can make a lot of money at it, but because their peers / friends are doing the same sport.0
-
Stuey01 wrote:There is more to it than muscle fibre types. There is skeletal structure for one.
The predisposition to exhibit certain physiological characteristics is related to ethnic background, race (or colour, as you used the terms interchangeably) is relevant to this. Directly relevant to this.
vastly over exaggerated is my take
the supposed physiological differences between races are exaggerated compared to than environmental factors (includes training load)...
there is no reason for the lack of black cyclists other than socio/cultural/economic ones
the reason why there is no black pros (or very vey few) is that the world is biased on what in the final analysis WILL be seen as irrational grounds..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
zammmmo wrote:The extent to which these factors affect things is more the question.
a lot less than one would think... even more so given that supposed differences would appear in racial if exposed to the same enviroments for many generations...
think if the andes were in norway would northern europe produce loads of white blonde climbers?
there are probably bigger variations genetically with-in the black race (misnomer) than between many black people and whites"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
mididoctors wrote:Stuey01 wrote:There is more to it than muscle fibre types. There is skeletal structure for one.
The predisposition to exhibit certain physiological characteristics is related to ethnic background, race (or colour, as you used the terms interchangeably) is relevant to this. Directly relevant to this.
vastly over exaggerated is my take
the supposed physiological differences between races are exaggerated compared to than environmental factors (includes training load)...
there is no reason for the lack of black cyclists other than socio/cultural/economic ones
the reason why there is no black pros (or very vey few) is that the world is biased on what in the final analysis WILL be seen as irrational grounds...
I'd be inclined to agree with this. For the people talking about physiological differences between races and bone density: you may have noticed, but pro cycling has heavy riders as well as light riders.0 -
I would say cultural differences rather then any genetics. It can take generations for an activity to filter down through the family.
For example, if your parents were Jamaican, you'd (probably on average) be slightly more relaxed about traditional older sports (running, cricket, football etc) then say speed sports on machines, bike, cars etc.
Give it a few more generations and it'll equal up. Remember, we are only talking a few years when in actual fact humans need centuries to change significantly.CAAD9
Kona Jake the Snake
Merlin Malt 40 -
There are actually quite significant differences in the skeleton for different ethnical groups. And it's quite easy to establish if a skeleton is from a black or a white male e.g.
My guess would be that the reason there is not that many black pro cyclists, is a combination of physical factors and social,economic etc.
But there are actually cycling teams starting up in Africa, so they're on their way!
(And theres hardly any asian cyclists either...?)0 -
Buckled_Rims wrote:I would say cultural differences rather then any genetics. It can take generations for an activity to filter down through the family.
For example, if your parents were Jamaican, you'd (probably on average) be slightly more relaxed about traditional older sports (running, cricket, football etc) then say speed sports on machines, bike, cars etc.
Give it a few more generations and it'll equal up. Remember, we are only talking a few years when in actual fact humans need centuries to change significantly.
what a very odd thing to say.
this man on the other hand makes a mockery of bone density / climbing ability. I give you Mr Eros Poli.
0 -
more importantly why are there no chinese pornstars ?????Viner Salviati
Shark Aero Pro
Px Ti Custom
Cougar 531
Sab single speed
Argon 18 E-112 TT
One-one Ti 456 Evo
Ridley Cheetah TT
Orange Clockwork 2007 ltd ed
Yeti ASR 5
Cove Hummer XC Ti0 -
If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur0 -
Why are there no white NBA stars anymore? Why are there no Pakistani NHL players? Where is the Chinese bobsleigh team? And the Jamaican gymnastics squad? For that matter, where is the all-asian death metal band? Or the all-black symphonic orchestra? Unfortunately, we know how awful all-white hip hop groups are.
Like music, sport is a part of culture. The sport of cycling is a part of western-european white elitist culture. Hence, most people who practice it are of western-european descent, white and quite wealthy. No amount of free plane tickets for Pat McQuaid will ever change that to a significant degree. But contrary to what some people seem to think, cycling is not in danger of being thrown out of the olympics for lack of inclusiveness. After all, what is more western-european, white and elitist than the olympic movement?0 -
Stuey01 wrote:If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.
lets say you are right.... think how specific the event is
once you get to 400 meters the race barrier collapses.. at best your talking neuromuscler optimisation for 10-20 sec efforts
the nature of the event is very very very very very very narrow
on top of all that I am not convinced about the access thing being all equal..."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Stuey01 wrote:If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.
certainly in the US, the abundance of black athletes in athletics is down to the collegiate scholarship system whereby the likes of Nike pump millions into sports. Clearly Cannondale and Trek are not doing this. So this reinforces the point that the socio-economic factors play a massive role as the massive amounts of money allows young under privileged kids the chance to fight their way out of poverty. Statistics would probably reinforce this point further (but I’m too lazy to try and find some) that the numbers of black / African American kids living below the poverty line as a % of the population is probably higher than white children, hence more under-privileged black kids fight harder to get further in life. Now the same cannot be said for some white kid thumbing around on his playstation, who has no motivation to go out and run his ass off to get into University. (clearly a massive generalisation but however having worked for a time in the US, the difference between the have’s and have-not’s is bigger than in the UK and the desperation to advance more stark)0 -
I'd recommend y'all reading Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers"
He doesn't cover this specifically but the general idea would broadly explain why...Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
breaking the mold anyone? and a true story no less.
0 -
Stuey01 wrote:If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.
There are just a few million children in this world that don't go to school and don't get exposed to sports, a very high number in Africa, which is the continent with most black people...And don't have money or resources to get going in cycling. It's free to run...0 -
intothe12 wrote:humour. **sigh**
I am obvisuouly demonstrating the ridiculous nature of the question.
Clearly people who take up a given sport are influenced by social and envormental and econimic factors....
Why are there so many Swiss and Austrians skiing world champions? Maybe it has something to do with the massive mountains in their back yard.
Why are the Kenyans great atheltes? Well probably becasue their culture has been based for most part on travel by foot (lack of infrastructure in the country) and not on the western lazy b*stard method of getting a bus or a car.
Some obvious points there like the skiing but it still doesn't explain why, in a country like the UK where population is about 10% from black or Asian origins, that a similar level aren't represented in cycling whilst in athletics the opposite is the case. Yes, there's a socio-economic case but I think it is over-stated as I've cycled with people from all sorts of social backgrounds although granted the is an under representation from poorer economic backgrounds. The arguement on culture is also flawed - whilst it may explain the lack of riders from African nations it doesn't allow for a country like France or Holland with strong cycling cultures as well as a reasonably large black population.
In reality it is likely to be a combination of things. Perhaps a role model at the top of pro cycling would get more kids interested - after all its only in the last 30 years that black footballers have become a common sight in British teams. It would be interesting to know how black participation in golf and tennis has faired due to Tiger and the Williams sisters (both of these are obviously perceived as middle class sports).
Be a good Ph.D subject for somone doing Sports Science etc.0 -
mididoctors wrote:Stuey01 wrote:If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.
lets say you are right.... think how specific the event is
once you get to 400 meters the race barrier collapses.. at best your talking neuromuscler optimisation for 10-20 sec efforts
the nature of the event is very very very very very very narrow
on top of all that I am not convinced about the access thing being all equal...
The fact that it is a narrow event is why it illustrates it so well. It is a simple event in which the margins of success and failure are tiny, so the small differences are so much more obvious. There is a vast majority of black athletes succeeding over white athletes in this event, and others, but this is the most obvious example.
This is an interesting read:
http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php
Re: the access, are you saying that white kids have less access to athletics?
Yes there are socio-economic factors that come into play, but there also are clear differences in the physiological make up of people from difference ethnic backgrounds.
Claiming that all people are physiologically equal regardless of their ethnic background is simply closing your eyes to the truth.
The large proportion of white men competing at elite level in cycling may well be due to cultural and economic differences, but the physiological angle is still an interesting discussion.Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur0 -
PinkBianchi wrote:Stuey01 wrote:If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.
There are just a few million children in this world that don't go to school and don't get exposed to sports, a very high number in Africa, which is the continent with most black people...And don't have money or resources to get going in cycling. It's free to run...
What's your point?
Black people are still under represented in elite level cycling compared to the proportion of the population in the UK, US, France etc, and over represented in other sports, such as athletics.
Certainly there may be a socio-economic reason for this but accross multiple countries all with different socio-economic conditions it is still the case, which suggests there are other factors at play.Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur0 -
very good and interesting read. He mentions the Native American Tarahumara of Mexico, I recently read a book on these lads "Born to Run"
http://www.amazon.com/Born-Run-Hidden-Superathletes-Greatest/dp/0307266303
these guys were super atheletes....
after reading this, I'm glad there are so few black cyclists. Its hard enough getting shelled out the back of a group by some pasty white guys, I dont need another bunch of lads adding fuel to the fire and shelling me out too!!0 -
Stuey01 wrote:
Re: the access, are you saying that white kids have less access to athletics?
if access is cutural basis/expectation/ access to better alternatives... counts as access
think about the last one..Yes there are socio-economic factors that come into play, but there also are clear differences in the physiological make up of people from difference ethnic backgrounds.
Claiming that all people are physiologically equal regardless of their ethnic background is simply closing your eyes to the truth.
is it clear? are ethnic ethiopians as likely to produce sprinters as Caribbeans?
if selection has taken place (perhaps even slavery as a environmental factor?) and you are right then not all black people are the same race from the perspective of your argument
this whole notion of race/colour falls on its face.... even if olympic sprinters are confined to a genetic subset of the human race... you would conclude its not because they iz blackThe large proportion of white men competing at elite level in cycling may well be due to cultural and economic differences, but the physiological angle is still an interesting discussion.
yes but fraught with pitfalls"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
To come from a different angle, the standard of British marathon running has gone down a lot since the 1980s yet this has nothing to do with genetics. Steve Jones was able to run 2.07.13 back in 1985 with Charlie Spedding running 2.08.xx. Opinions will vary as to the improvements that modern understanding of training, nutrition, etc, would make to this but surely Jones would get to 2.05.xx at least? Looking at the current 2009 bests this would place him very highly.
http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists ... etail.html
In fact, while looking for Jones's personal best i found the below article. He is disappointed that he still holds the British record and is running the New York marathon this year (although its interesting to note that he doesnt seem to think much of modern techniques, cant imagine he tells them to do as he did and drink 10 pints of cider the night before a half-marathon!).
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 09041.html
From watching races with Kenyans in, one thing they seem very good at is putting in sudden bursts. If they could replicate this on a bike then they would be ideal road racers.
As to the nature versus nurture debate, the fastest 12 400 metre runners are all from the US.
http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists ... etail.html
Im not sure exactly what this means but it definitely suggests that the american system is getting the best out of its runners one way or another, or focussing on an event that others dont.
Finally, for me the best British male athlete was Sebastian Coe. Its nearly 30 years since he achieved his personal best and given modern advances i think its fair to say that he would be breaking the world record if he was running today.
http://www.iaaf.org/statistics/toplists ... etail.html
The 1500 metre statistics still show Steve Cram's time relatively highly. If modern training could give him a 0.75 second improvement then this would make him 5th on the all time list.
I looked into the above statistics because i wondered if anyone could take on the Kenyans/Ethiopians in athletics. I think they could compete with the East Africans in distance events although medalling in major championships might be a step too far.0 -
Access to better alternatives is an interesting point.mididoctors wrote:Stuey01 wrote:
Re: the access, are you saying that white kids have less access to athletics?
if access is cutural basis/expectation/ access to better alternatives... counts as access
think about the last one..
I agree that the word black as a distinction of race, though it is in common parlance, is actually not that useful when considering these discussions. An east african and west african are both black, however they have very different physiological characteristics - hence the domination of East Africans at distance running and the dominance of West Africans at sprint events.Yes there are socio-economic factors that come into play, but there also are clear differences in the physiological make up of people from difference ethnic backgrounds.
Claiming that all people are physiologically equal regardless of their ethnic background is simply closing your eyes to the truth.
is it clear? are ethnic ethiopians as likely to produce sprinters as Caribbeans?
if selection has taken place (perhaps even slavery as a environmental factor?) and you are right then not all black people are the same race from the perspective of your argument
Ethnic ethiopians (East African) are significantly less likely to produce sprinters versus Western African states (black people from the Caribbean are predominantly from Western African descent). The empirical evidence is emphatic in supporting this assertion, and physiological differences that explain the differing performance have been found and documented.
No, it is not because they are black, it is because of other genetic differences common to people who originate from that region. They also tend to have dark skin, this a genetic difference as well, though it has nothing to do with sprinting ability.this whole notion of race/colour falls on its face.... even if olympic sprinters are confined to a genetic subset of the human race... you would conclude its not because they iz blackThe large proportion of white men competing at elite level in cycling may well be due to cultural and economic differences, but the physiological angle is still an interesting discussion.
yes but fraught with pitfalls
True, it is difficult to have this discussion without reinforcing or indeed creating prejudices, in that respect it certainly is fraught with pitfalls. I think for the most part we have managed to debate the point without falling into these pitfalls so far, wouldn't you say?Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur0 -
Stuey01 wrote:I agree that the word black as a distinction of race, though it is in common parlance, is actually not that useful when considering these discussions. An east african and west african are both black, however they have very different physiological characteristics - hence the domination of East Africans at distance running and the dominance of West Africans at sprint events.
just to blurr the whole thing even more and throw a new curve ball
I don't think west Africans are dominant...
the nations that dominate at sprinting tend to be those with populations of the forcibly resettled
starting in AD1500(or so) if i took 20-30 generations of Europeans forced them onto overcrowded ships and transported them thousands of miles with the journey killing 20-30% and then made them conduct unpaid forced labour....
would we be looking at a pasty ginger haired geezers winning the 100M?
and how about this.... is that genetic or economic/social forcing? even if we conclude genetic selection is taking place?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Cumulonimbus wrote:
From watching races with Kenyans in, one thing they seem very good at is putting in sudden bursts. If they could replicate this on a bike then they would be ideal road racers.
+1
its about time some of these lads got into the game"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I don't think I explained myself too well earlier.
The reason black cyclists are so poorly represented in the Pro ranks is becuase there are very very few of them in the amateur ranks the Pro ranks sign riders from. You can't say anything else about the selection policies of the Pro teams regarding race.
So the question becomes why are there very very few black cyclists in those levels. The answer is probably that there aren't in the levels below those either, so again, you can't really say anything about how race effects things at this level.
You can keep on going, and eventually you'll come to the Sunday-morning club run. Unless I'm mistaken, I doubt that most club runs on any given Sunday reflect the general population at large. This is where the questions can be asked and answers maybe found.
Is there any reason to suggest that the population of recreational cyclists reflect the general population? I wouldn't have thought so. Do the clubs do a better job reflecting this population?
If the cyclists aren't there at the grass roots level, they won't be there further up the chain either.0 -
drenkrom wrote:Why are there no white NBA stars anymore? Why are there no Pakistani NHL players? Where is the Chinese bobsleigh team? And the Jamaican gymnastics squad? For that matter, where is the all-asian death metal band? Or the all-black symphonic orchestra? Unfortunately, we know how awful all-white hip hop groups are.
Like music, sport is a part of culture. The sport of cycling is a part of western-european white elitist culture. Hence, most people who practice it are of western-european descent, white and quite wealthy. No amount of free plane tickets for Pat McQuaid will ever change that to a significant degree. But contrary to what some people seem to think, cycling is not in danger of being thrown out of the olympics for lack of inclusiveness. After all, what is more western-european, white and elitist than the olympic movement?
Want to try and convince Robert Millar that he came from a quite wealthy background?
Or Fauso Coppi? So many others.........
My take on the original question is that it starts at root levels and the participant's desire and interests so it is a cultural thing. Some groups are just not interested.
The balance may well shift in the near future.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
Stuey01 wrote:PinkBianchi wrote:Stuey01 wrote:If the differences in races is over stated then do you care to offer an explanation as to why there is such a bias toward black men being successful in sprinting events in athletics?
Athletics is an easy access sport, practiced worldwide, it is on the school curriculum, all kids are exposed to it, yet there is a clear racial divide in terms of success.
There are just a few million children in this world that don't go to school and don't get exposed to sports, a very high number in Africa, which is the continent with most black people...And don't have money or resources to get going in cycling. It's free to run...
What's your point?
Black people are still under represented in elite level cycling compared to the proportion of the population in the UK, US, France etc, and over represented in other sports, such as athletics.
Certainly there may be a socio-economic reason for this but accross multiple countries all with different socio-economic conditions it is still the case, which suggests there are other factors at play.
Well maybe the only way is a massive world wide survey as to where cycling comes on the list of sports to those groups that are under represented. Just a thought !0 -
Is not riding bikes because is tired after week in cotton field and a saturday night drink red stripe and smoke dope.
Ave Banned Calves0 -
Vino wrote:Is not riding bikes because is tired after week in cotton field and a saturday night drink red stripe and smoke dope.
Ave Banned Calves
I'm sorry but your answers do not to fit into the criteria. However please mind you don't dent your BMW while driving home high on drink and drugs young man. There's a good chap , "Next"
0 -
Is this the kind of thread we're going to have to expect now that fat a*se Griffin has been on TV?
Maybe it's more interesting to ask why there are so few Finns in the pro ranks, seeing as cross-country skiing is very popular over there, is a massively aerobic sport, and has had it's own encounters with EPO over the years.0
