Etiquette in the hills

gbs

Recently I was invited to join a group of 5 for a half day ride. As it happens my "sponsor" had a family crisis and I was left to ride with 4 strangers - all nice folk, keen cyclists with quality bikes. Their range in ages was late twenties to late thirties. I am an OAP.

I found the pace for the first 15 k, mostly flat, quite demanding, sustained 33 -35kph. I was a complete drafting fairy. I was embarrassed; I was not shirking taking the lead - I simply could not get up to the front. I was on the verge of pulling out so as to avoid spoiling their day.

On the first significant upgrade they seemed to slow substantially and I passed them all comfortably and without hammering away. This happened on 4 more occasions.

At the tea stop one of the lads said I should go more slowly up the hills so others could draft. I think he was genuinely upset.

I am in my first season and am conscious of my lack of savoir faire but I am sure that I read in at least one club guide to group riding that it is each to his own when going up (or down); at your own speed and regroup at the top (or bottom). At climbing speeds surely the aerodynamic benefit of drafting is much reduced?

Eventually I pulled out for an early train because a bolt for the plate in my shoe worked loose and I was unable to use the cleat. I guess I got my comeuppance.

dennisn

I would venture to say that drafting on hills(big ones anyway) is not something that
I have ever experienced. I suppose if you're riding into a headwind there might be some noticeable benefit, but I've ground it out over more than a few "big ones" and generally the only advantage to riding with someone is the company(and that's good - for your morale anyway). Just like you see happen during the pro races the hills split things up pretty good, even for us slower moving mere mortals and old f*rts.

jacster

As above the only time I have found it beneficial is into a headwind.
Unless it's really blowing do your own thing and regroup at the top.
Fantastic that you could show up the flat course bullies!

mididoctors

drop them...

Mossrider

My club has a rule of climb at your own pace. We're based in the Pennines so its regularly used. That said, hanging on to someone's wheel is always beneficial; possibly psychologically more than anything. Grab a wheel if you can, but don't bother to tow(unless someone's in trouble) and gather at the top is our general rule.

twohits.thesix

If there is a headwind then you do feel the benefits, especially in a race with riders all around you.

Ride at your own pace and regroup at the top, don't go too fast though or you will have a long wait!

pjm-84

Not so much drafting but pacing. Send a climber to the front and hang onto his wheel. I'll happy accept this.

Did you manage to do any work on the front on the flat?

Jon8a

From a muddier perspective when I did the selkirk merida I followed someones wheel up the last climb. I was dying having gone out too fast for the first 3-4 hours.

It certainly didn't help physically as the pace was far too slow on mountainbikes and the track muddy. But pyscologically is was invaluable, just something to focus other than the discomfort.

As for road rides, I find it easier to go at my own pace up a hill, I often struggle going slowly and spinning on shorter hills when really I'd like to stand and power my way up. As I'm unfamilliar with the ettiquette I normally only go off ahead if someone else does or I let people know what I'm doing so they don't think I'm trying to up the pace and turn it into a race.

lukasran

Etiquette on hills? you must be joking. The only thing to do on a hill is lay waste to any one on it, yourself included.

tim000

i hoped you looked round to give them the 'stare' before you left them

Harry182

Ha!

Sounds more like your riding buddies just didn't like having their a$$es handed to them by someone twice their age.

+1 with the above comments -- Ride your own pace and regroup at the top. Also, next time you feel them struggling to hold your wheel on a hill, give them "the look" before accelerating away.

pianoman

Surely aerodynamics DON'T come into play at less than 10mph anyway? What's the point of drafting on a steep hill, unless the wind is particularly strong :shock:

pjm-84

You don't draft you use them as a pacer.

Reading between the lines, possibly wrongly, I gather the upset was in the fact you sat in and then took off on the hills. If this was the case then that's not fair gain. If it's not and you guys shared the work, then riding your on pace on the hills is acceptable.

I myself have no problems with riders sitting on my wheel but when they have a go on the hills to jump away I do get a little bit annoyed

jacster

Doesn't sound like he jumped away..

On the first significant upgrade they seemed to slow substantially and I passed them all comfortably and without hammering away. This happened on 4 more occasions.

From the sounds of it the pace was so hard on the flat he couldn't actually get on the front.
He showed them up on the hills..fair play in my book.

pjm-84

Okay fair enough he didn't jump away. Just a figure of speech. Let's change it to rode away. I also note that he passed them which indicates he wasn't at the front at this point either.

I look at the post and it's doesn't stack up. Hence the question - did you do any work at the front?

If you shared the work then fair play. But if you sat in and then rode away on the hills that's not playing ball.

ded

If you shared the work then fair play. But if you sat in and then rode away on the hills that's not playing ball.

I agree, sort of. The issue is, there are a lot of riders out there who can stomp out a fair speed on the flat but suddenly lose it on the hills. I've been in some sportives with some beefy boys cranking out a good speed on the flat who seem to go backwards at any rise... Sounds like the OP is the reverse (skinny mountain goat are you gbs?) So if he genuinely was struggling to hang on on the flat but was more "competitive" on the climbs then it's a bit harsh to criticise him for "sitting in"...

lukasran

dont understand why people get all precious about drafting if it really bugged them they should have waved him past to do some of the towing instead they sit at the front silently seething until lambastation at the top of the hill? if there was a similar effect to drafting going up hill they would have been all over it. but theres not, boo hoo.

pjm-84

The gap is too great between the flat and the hills. If you're struggling to hang onto to someone's wheel, let alone a group of guys, on the flat with the benefit of drafting I can't comprehend how you can then easily ride away from them on the hills? Hence the question.

I did the Cheshire Cat last year in a little over 5hrs. On the ride I overtook a few hundred riders and I have no problem with people hitching a lift. On one particular stretch I got two guys who did just that. No problem, but on the first major climb after sitting on my wheel for 15km or so they decided to try and jump clear.

Now I'm not going slow and I'm overtaking other riders on the climb but they have had a free ride sitting behind someone who is 6ft 5in 16stone for the last 15km . This really annoyed me. Big mistake. I had to dig deep but I went over the top and dropped them.

Generally though I find when I hit the hills I lose my little followers. which means that they have been struggling to stay on my wheel and unable to offer any help in setting the pace. I have no problem with this.

Hence the question!

gbs

yes, "skinny" is the word, now down to 80kg having lost 7 kg since beginning cycling 12 months ago. Choresteral count is down significantly too and that is good news.

"goat"? Sadly too old for all that

gbs

to pjm: No, I did no towing but once the pace hotted up often I was 5m or so behind. So I was not drafting either - not that the group would have been aware of my struggle at the back. I do not disagree with yr view that I should have shared the towing but in the first 20 k I just did not feel that I had the legs.

Like you I am puzzled by the disparity. I have ridden in groups on 5 or 6 occasions and typically I have struggled in the early stage but felt relatively fresh at the tea stop so may be it is a metabolism issue - as well as my newly reduced weight (see earlier post).

pjm-84

Warm up pains!

If you were 5m behind you had no benefit from drafting so it's starting to make sense. I'm not having a dig just trying to find a reason. If you didn't gain from drafting then you had no benefit and therefore, pace wise, you'll be faster because the other guys are sharing the work. This would show in the hills where drafting doesn't play such an important role. I'm sorry for having a go at you. However the other guys don't know if your drafting or not?

The weight loss helps. I dropped from 17stone (rower) down to 15'4 (too much) but found an ideal weight at 15st 10lbs. It helps on the hills and the flat but like you I suffer with warming up especially in a short race when someone goes off like a rocket. Hence I'm better on the longer rides.

Bhima

You do get a drafting benefit on the hills. There is no speed at which aerodynamics are not important.

If I want to up the pace, i'll usually tell the others to get on my wheel as I pass or i'll let people know beforehand if i'm going to sprint away. I've seen people sprint off up hills, only to be called anti-social at the top by the other riders because they were taken by suprise. Communication is the key.

If you go past at too fast a pace without warning, just the thought of the accelleration they have to do to keep with you can be fatiguing/demoralizing for them - a tactic you often see on the climbs in races.

normanp

Just a thought gbs - did you talk with them about this on the ride? I have in the past taken the front after a gargantuan effort and then slowed the whole group down as I can't keep it up - but worked my a** off anyway and given them 5 min rest - I feel that this at least shows wiling!

gbs

Norman: No, we didn't discuss. As mentioned I was hanging on with some difficulty and often 5 m adrift. I felt in those fast early stages I could have made the front but would have soon fallen off the pace and be seen as a "silly old b*****". I felt it wise to conserve energy for what was to come.

What I did notice was that the ride leader set the pace until we cleared the built up area and then one rider from time to time sharply accelerated (standing out of the saddle); not quite the smooth process of the Dynamo RP Saturday AM chaingang! I do not think that the other two members spent much time at the front.

To all: thanks for the comments. What I conclude is: 1) my morphology is probably advantageous in the hills; 2) my metabolism is probably not best suited to a fast early pace; 3) I should have made the effort to lead in the early stages and accepted the consequences; 4) prior communication is desirable but the extent to which casual group riders stick to a game plan is uncertain; 5) I need to spend more time in higher speed groups.

shockedsoshocked

In general I think if you're out as a group you stay as a group. People sprinting off up hills (not saying the OP was!) generally means everyone tries chasing them down and the people who are unfit/tired/fat get blown straight out the back. What starts out as an enjoyable training session turns into a war of attrition with people spread out over the countryside.

If people want to sprint off up hills start racing, or go out on your own. Generally the people who go on like that on club rides are the same ones who'll spend their share on the front half-wheeling the other person.

gbs

to so shocked: definitely not sprinting; sat in the saddle at all times, dropping gears to maintain min cadence and slow pedalled or stopped at hill tops.

Tom Butcher

gbs - I think your analysis is probably right. Early on there were more than likely a few others suffering with the pace but they took their turns whereas you thought they were comfortable and wanted to conserve a bit of energy for fear of blowing. It often happens - especially with newer riders who fear being dropped - but really if you are sitting in to the flat it's poor form to push on in the hills imo. As you say communication helps as most of us don't want to offend others unknowingly.

shockedsoshocked

gbs wrote:

to so shocked: definitely not sprinting; sat in the saddle at all times, dropping gears to maintain min cadence and slow pedalled or stopped at hill tops.

Like I said, not saying you were! My post was more about general etiquette.

If you slow pedalled and stopped at the top of hills then their only issue, as people have said, is not taking your turn on the flat? However it sounds to me like they're either going way too hard on their turns on the front and blowing up, or not rotating the riders at the front and blowing up, or both.

If you feel they're going to fast on the flats just ask them no "knock a mile off".

Then again, if they're 20 years younger than you and you're dropping them on the hills, fair play to you!

Infamous

It's obvious what's going on, they are taking it easy up hills and staying together and you are going balls out. That's why they're telling you to slow down. Classic newbie error.

Sorry to say, but at 80 kg if you stuggle to stay with them on the flat, there is no chance you will drop them on the hills unless you are riding with a rugby team.

aberdeen_lune

The same thing happened to me yesterday gbs. Riding in a group of 4 they struggled up the hills. Now we all slow on hills but it depends by how much. On the flats we were cycling along fine around 18-22mph. As soon as we hit a hill I slowed to 11 or 12mph only to look back and the group were miles behind. I got a right telling off for not sticking with the group. I think its just some grumpy cyclists dont like the fact they need to improve on hills. So dont worry about them as long as you wait to regroup at the top there should be no problem. If it is ride with another group who arent so controlling. I was taking my turn at the front on the flats so there could be no complaint about drafting.

ForumNewbie

After reading this thread, what surprises me is that if you (gbs) were struggling to keep up on the flat and were effectively on your own several metres off the back of the group, you must have been having to work much harder just to stay in touch, while those in front were benefitting from working as a group. Accordingly it is even more surprising that you had the energy left to pass them easily on the hills, even although you were carrying less weight.