Canary Wharf Security ticketing RLJers

unscarred

Looks like Rent-a-Plod are cracking down here in the Wharf.

Saw two tickets being written this morning in the space of a few hundred yards (or at least that's what I presume they're doing) and one yesterday.
Justified in my opinion as all the red lights round here are pedestrian crossings and they're usually very busy that time in the morning, but I don't want to start that debate again.

Watch out people.

northstar

I don't think any type of security guard has the legal power to do that, if so it's a dangerous road to go down.

amnezia

northstar wrote:

I don't think any type of security guard has the legal power to do that, if so it's a dangerous road to go down.

They have more legal power than you think. Canary wharf is private property.

Wallace1492

[quote="northstar"it's a dangerous road to go down.[/quote]

Is that becuase of all the traffic lights, pedestrians, red light jumpers and pseudo police officers?

unscarred

northstar wrote:

I don't think any type of security guard has the legal power to do that, if so it's a dangerous road to go down.

I agree, Security staff giving themselves powers normally reserved for police is very worrying.

I think the situation in Canary Wharf is unusual because the entire estate is private property and they have specific arrangements with the Met to run their own security. They may genuinely have some kind of legally delegated authority within the geographical limits of the estate.

I will email them and see if this is the case.

MonkeyMonster

unscarred wrote:

They may genuinely have some kind of legally delegated authority within the geographical limits of the estate.

I'd put money on them having that. Not much money tbh but I suspect it is so.

gtvlusso

Sorry, so that I understand this - Canary Wharf (terrorist hotspot) is not under the regime of the common Police? But under the regime of private security who feel that they can act like the Police?

To a dark and dangerous place this takes us - I, for one would have told them where to shove their ticket!

For the legalites on this site - Do they have the right to enforce anything they feel is appropriate? Do security actually have any power - as far as I was aware the POlice only had the power to stop people?

Harumph!

asprilla

I should imagine that they have the same powers to issue tickets as private car park attendants to do issue parking tickets; none.

You'll probably find that the 'tickets' are invoices and not fines and therefore aren't actually legally enforcable.

White Horse

I guess as it's private property they could stop you and tell you to obey the rules. If you don't they could turf you off.

The ticket may be a warning that is registered so they can check for persistent offenders. If you are one of those, then security will probably speak to your employer at Canary Wharf and inform them that you are not abiding by the site rules and risk exclusion from the site if behaviour doesn't change.

They may try and charge you an admin fee for the inconvenience but I doubt that would be enforceable - probably the best they can do is exclude you from the private property for non-payment. Not the best situation if you work there.

kurako

I've seen heaps of people running red lights in CW. Some even do it while going the wrong way up the one way system. Some but not all I've seen doing this have come out of employers' underground car park. One way to cut out this sort of cr*p is for employers to suspend underground parking priveleges for the worst offenders.

Canary Wharf is private property so you either play by the rules or get turfed out. I've got no problems with that.

mapleflot

They do need the occasional wake-up call though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuYSVCW9ILs

deptfordmarmoset

They'd make a fortune if they set up at that roundabout just down from Westferry Circus. I've never managed to get over it without RLJing....

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hne ... 89.81,,0,5

Jay dubbleU

Town centre here is private - they have their own security and issue £30 fines to cyclists riding in pedestrian zones

rich_e

A friend of mine, a photographer and of Asian origin was asked to stop taking pictures and leave Canary Warf by these so called 'Police' one Sunday morning. He wasn't even doing anything wrong, simply taking pictures of the buildings from the street.

Sounds like they are a law unto themselves.

MonkeyMonster

Rich_E wrote:

A friend of mine, a photographer and of Asian origin was asked to stop taking pictures and leave Canary Warf by these so called 'Police' one Sunday morning. He wasn't even doing anything wrong, simply taking pictures of the buildings from the street.

Sounds like they are a law unto themselves.

You will find that quite common around a lot of buildings in london and other major cities now - terrorists scoping out the joint. I have two friends one here, one in NY who had friends that happened too.

mapleflot

Yes, the Rental-Plod have intelligence that suggests terrorists can only afford large DSLRs, carefully composing shots in full view. They do not use small compact cameras or cameraphones when accompanied by family members posing as tourists. Terrorists are also, by nature, unable to use Google Streetview, Flickr, etc..
So.. you ```photographer'''-terrorists! Beware! They are on to you!

(Never mind that as soon as there is a terrorist incident, the public are urged by the police to hand in any photos they may have taken at the time to help with investigations).

The Rookie

Jay dubbleU wrote:

Town centre here is private - they have their own security and issue £30 fines to cyclists riding in pedestrian zones

Only the law courts can issue FINES, the police can issue fixed penalty Notices which you can decline and revert the case to court while councils under decriminalised parking arrangements can issue notices with legal support to enforce payment or contest via a formalised ruling service. Private companies can only issue invoices which you can choose to ignore, their record of success for such activities if they ever (1% of cases at most) choose to take it to court is poor, not least as most of their invoices and documentation is highly illegal in the way it tries to imply it has a legal status!

Simon

TheStone

Just to get this straight:

CW is private land with it's own police?
They're allowed to stop you and issue an invoice, but you don't have to pay it?

Are they allowed to hold you?
Do you have to give them your details?
Can they exclude people from the private land?

..... all seems very strange.

Kieran_Burns

Your rights as a photographer can be found here:
http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/uk-p ... rights-v2/

Well worth the read

asprilla

TheStone wrote:

Just to get this straight:

CW is private land with it's own police?
They're allowed to stop you and issue an invoice, but you don't have to pay it?

Are they allowed to hold you?
Do you have to give them your details?
Can they exclude people from the private land?

..... all seems very strange.

My understanding is that if they issue with any request for cash then it's an invoice based upon an implied contract and your can just ignore it (same goes for parking fines issued by anyone other than the council).

A private service would not be allowed to hold you, you do not have to give them your details and since tresspass is a civil matter they would find it very difficult to exclude you and any attempt to physically restrain you would probably be assault.

The Rookie

TheStone wrote:

Just to get this straight:

CW is private land with it's own police?
They're allowed to stop you and issue an invoice, but you don't have to pay it?

Are they allowed to hold you?
Do you have to give them your details?
Can they exclude people from the private land?

..... all seems very strange.

They are not the Police, they are private security guards.....

They can ask you to stop, there is no penalty in law for failing to do so, anyone can give you a scrap of paper.....

They can make a citizens arrest, as you've not commited a criminal act (no legal basis for private traffic lights) they can't for RLJing.

They have no power to ask for your details.

Thay can ask you to leave private land, but there only legal recourse to enforce it is via an injunction, for which they need to know your details.

Simon

kurako

TheStone wrote:

Just to get this straight:

CW is private land with it's own police?
They're allowed to stop you and issue an invoice, but you don't have to pay it?

Are they allowed to hold you?
Do you have to give them your details?
Can they exclude people from the private land?

..... all seems very strange.

CW is private land. I'm pretty sure there's no public right of way with notices posted to that effect.

They have their own security guards but I'm not sure what their legal power is. I imagine its all tied in with the right of way thing.

They do have one vital function which is guarding my bike which is conveniently parked next to where they all hang about smoking by the security office

pinkbikini

Do they still go round removing any bike locks left on bike racks but not attached to bikes(e.g. locks left overnight) because they are a 'health and safety' hazard?
That happened to me a couple of times in the 4yrs I worked there.

kurako

pinkbikini wrote:

Do they still go round removing any bike locks left on bike racks but not attached to bikes(e.g. locks left overnight) because they are a 'health and safety' hazard?
That happened to me a couple of times in the 4yrs I worked there.

Yeah. Every now and then they'll go round with an angle grinder and take em off. They're an eyesore and I guess if they allow them to accumulate it'll get out of hand.

Can't see what its got to do with health and safety though :?

Retch

Interesting theory, and one that their police-style shoulder numbers might support, is that they have PCSO-style powers. Perhaps that's how they've drawn the line with the Met.

The "real" police certainly have a presence around the estate, as you would expect.

The Rookie

To have 'PCSO' style powers they would need to be authorised by the commisioner, something I doubt has happened, give that the commisioner would appear to then have little say in how those powers were used, even so a PCSO has very limited powers beyond that of a private citizen (just about limited to issuing asking for your name).

If you don't know, don't guess, find out and then provide informed information!

Simon

Retch

The Beginner wrote:

To have 'PCSO' style powers they would need to be authorised by the commisioner, something I doubt has happened, give that the commisioner would appear to then have little say in how those powers were used, even so a PCSO has very limited powers beyond that of a private citizen (just about limited to issuing asking for your name).

If you don't know, don't guess, find out and then provide informed information!

Simon

Well, that's me told then.

(PCSO powers are much broader than asking your name, and include issuing fixed penalty traffic notices and stopping bicycles, but that's by the by)

The Rookie

Fixed penalty traffic notices can only be issued by those with the additional authorisation (above and beyond the normal authorisation for a PCSO) to do so.......those with the additional powers have effectively the same powers as a traffic warden used to have before they were scrapped (notice the gov't louse up, do away with and then bring back under a new name!) and yes they can also stop/control traffic - but your 'basic' PCSO can't do that.

Cutting off your bike lock could (would) constitute criminal damage unless they have taken reasonable steps to get you to remove it first, sounds like these jumped up doormen have an over inflated sense of their own importance!

Simon

flicksta

Are the roads around CW not the public highway then? If so, fixed penalty notices are irrelevant.

If they are issuing invoices, such as private car parks do, it is as mentioned above on the basis of breach of a contract you entered into by parking on their property. If they wanted to act in the same way, there would have to be clear signage explaining the terms and conditions of use of their roads.

Stopping RLJ when there are pedestrians about and telling them not to do it, is no bad thing though. Pretending you can fine people is another.

kurako

Not sure if they're handing out fines or just warnings. I'll maybe ask some tonight if they're in the usual spot.

I could see there was something going on Thursday when there were about 4 stationed round the first lights on North Colonade. I'd got the train and hung about to see whay was happening cos I'm nosy. Looked like they were looking for RLJers but it was early (about 8am ) and every time a likely lad appeared the lights were green. Then when they went red there wasn't a bike in sight. I think the poor sods looked pretty bored to be honest!

Porgy

The Beginner wrote:

Cutting off your bike lock could (would) constitute criminal damage unless they have taken reasonable steps to get you to remove it first, sounds like these jumped up doormen have an over inflated sense of their own importance!

Simon

Reminds me of the time I locked my bike up in Marylebone Station so I could buy a coffee - I was 5 minutes and they'd cut my lock off and were carting my bike away!! No one made any attempt to find me and when I complained they called the police on me wich brought about the rather exciting episode of plod running down the platform to arrest me just as the train i was sitting on was pulling away. The train won but I had to get off a stop early and cycle the last 20 miles just in case they'd worked out where i was going and were waiting for me there.

And it was my bloody birthday!!!! :evil:

Still it was a very nice cycle ride on the yorkshire Moors - I'd never been there before. Every cloud eh?