Blood & Recovery from a hard ride (LOTS of questions)

Bhima

When you create more red blood cells, these are essential:

Iron
- Formation of blood
- Oxygen carrier
- 1 molecule of hemoglobin contains four iron atoms. Each iron atom can bind with one molecule of oxygen.
- Overdosing is toxic

Vitamin B12
- Formation of blood
- Energy production
- Fatty Acid Synthesis
- Brain
- Nervous system
- DNA synthesis
- Alcohol & Nicotine intake will decrease absorption potential

Folic Acid / Folate - Vitamin B9
- Formation of blood
- Rapid cell division and growth
- Important for cells and tissues that rapidly divide.
- Needed for protein metabolism (breaking down proteins into amino acids)

Lets say I do a really hard ride which makes my body want to raise its hematocrit level (percentage of blood made up of red blood cells) very slightly - i'll need to get enough of the above for my body to start creating more red blood cells... Right?

Now, my questions:

- How quickly does this happen?
- Is the process similar to muscle recovery, where getting back on the bike during this recovery period could actually be counter-productive? I've never gone out for a ride and thought "wow, my lungs haven't recovered from the other day"...
- My B9 requirements are 330 micrograms per day - a big handful of spinach has 600 micrograms. Would this overdose speed up the process of creation?
- If you constantly are breathing hard on a ride, would you need more iron afterwards, compared to an easy ride, as you've been using a lot more of it for oxygen transport?
- What happens to the iron after you've used it for oxygen transport? Could you actually run out of iron reserves on a ride and stop breathing? :shock:

I'm sure i'll have more questions to come too... Still got a few more books to read... I just need to put all of what i've learned into some kind of perspective in cycling terms...

mask of sanity

Are you assuming that iron is getting used up in the process of oxygen transportation? Because I believe I'm right in saying that the binding of oxygen to haemoglobin is reversible, therefore no alterations are made to the RBC. The bodies need for iron is due to the relatively short life time of the cells as they have no nucleus.

As well as those mentioned I think you may need vitamin C as well as this improves your bodies ability to absorb the iron from your food. Maybe take iron supplement tablets (these will have vit c in as well). You're right in saying it's very toxic as well. (but you can't have overdosing without toxicity )

I don't know anything about heamocrit levels but I'd of thought it would take a fair while. If you've ever given blood you'll notice the slight weak feeling for a couple of days. But that's a huge demand of new RBC amongst other things in blood.

Murr X

Bhima, I will post a quick reply here but but this is a BIG topic, almost endless in fact.

Firstly, RBCs are not produced very quickly. It varies slightly depending on a number of factors but it takes a few weeks for new ones to be produced and develop to full maturity before they are up to the job. As for waiting for the new RBCs to form between training sessions? Forget it unless you only want to ride once a month! Also hard aerobic training certainly will not increase hematocrit level unless you become dehydrated, which can make it rise very rapidly and high due to a sharp drop in blood plasma levels but not increased RBC count.

You certainly need the above nutrients you mentioned to produce RBCs but of course you may well be getting enough already. Cyclists do not generally need a great deal more iron than sedentary folk, runners however tend to require more as a direct result of footstrike hemolysis. Women usually require more iron than men as blood is lost during menstruation. The body will reuse much of the iron from the destruction of old RBCs to make new ones but don't ask me what percentage of the iron is reused and how much is lost as I have no idea.

As you rightly state too much iron is very bad news and the ONLY way to find out if you have adequate levels is to get a very simple blood ferritin test otherwise you are "shooting in the dark" so to speak trying to get the correct amount, you are probably just fine though. Iron can and does cause a lot of damage especially supplementing some types of it so don't do it unless you have good reason to do so.

Yes in theory you will probably need more iron if you are are breathing hard after a tough ride compared to an easier ride but not much more. Unlike with carbohydrates you definately do not need to be in a hurry to take the iron soon after training or even on that day. If you are undertaking a huge training load then you will require a bit more iron but one hard ride or two will not make much difference at all.

Some athletes seem to benefit from B12 supplimentation. This is only the case if they are deficient to begin with, luckily unlike iron B12 is quite safe to suppliment. As to why some seem to benefit while others do not is for the most part likely due to genetics, also some poor souls can not absorb or make use of B12. Again a simple blood test will reveal what your levels are at although there is some confusion as to what defines deficient. All in all its not worth worrying over, if you are getting enough then that is fine and as I said you can get it checked anyway.

Taking more B9 than is necessary will not help "speed up" anything, no. Spinach is a very healthy food though with a lot of antioxidants and the like so keep taking plenty of it.

Murr X

Bhima

Thanks for the replies; it's been quite educational.

mask of sanity wrote:

Are you assuming that iron is getting used up in the process of oxygen transportation?

Yes. Yes I was... Silly me. :oops:

Murr X wrote:

Bhima, I will post a quick reply here but but this is a BIG topic, almost endless in fact.

I know - I just got a couple of books out of the library about blood. I've got about 5000+ pages to trawl through. :shock:

Murr X wrote:

it takes a few weeks for new ones to be produced and develop to full maturity before they are up to the job.

Right. I was just a bit concerned that some of the MEGA hard riding I did the other weekend would have been useless, as my usual "popeye-style" spinach session I usually have post-ride did not happen.

Murr X wrote:

Also hard aerobic training certainly will not increase hematocrit level

Oh really? So what exactly does then? I thought you could raise it by doing altitude training...(?)

Murr X wrote:

Iron can and does cause a lot of damage especially supplementing some types of it so don't do it unless you have good reason to do so.

About 5 days a week, I have a bunch of spinach equivallent to ~100-200% of my RDA of iron. :shock: Should I calm it down then? :shock:

Murr X wrote:

Again a simple blood test will reveal what your levels are at although there is some confusion as to what defines deficient. All in all its not worth worrying over, if you are getting enough then that is fine and as I said you can get it checked anyway.

So, if i'm really interested in it all (which I am), could I literally book a doctors appointment and ask them about getting a blood test done? I do eat a LOT of foods high in these vitamins... Maybe it might be worth checking myself out. :?

fungus_the_muffin_man

You'd need a dam good reason to get your gp to do blood tests just for the sake of your whim. The NHS isn't there for those reasons. You want to know that then go private.

tomb8555

Bhima wrote:

Murr X wrote:

Also hard aerobic training certainly will not increase hematocrit level

Oh really? So what exactly does then? I thought you could raise it by doing altitude training...(?)

I would have thought that a rise in HCT would be due to prolonged training (or more to the point recovering) at high altitude - i.e. weeks. I'm not sure the effects last particularly long when you return to sea level, either.

Yes presumably if you increased your RBC count you'd require a proportional increase in Haeme. Unless you already have an Iron deficiency I wouldn't have thought you'd require supplements to cover that. Certainly not if it's just normal training. Perhaps if you were altitude training, you'd adjust your diet accordingly. If you're concerned about your Iron intake then do as you suggest and eat some spinach. As already mentioned it contains many anti-oxidants such as Vit E and is very good for you.

Bhima

Fungus The Muffin Man wrote:

You'd need a dam good reason to get your gp to do blood tests just for the sake of your whim. The NHS isn't there for those reasons. You want to know that then go private.

Thought so.

tomb8555

Also,

Looking at the published biopassport data from the tour etc, isn't it normal to see a decrease in HCT during prolonged periods of hard exercise (i.e. a 3 week stage race)?



Recovery wise, I think worrying about muscle fatigue and clearing lactic acid by a proper warm down after a hard session/intervals is more important than worrying about Iron and RBC production.


It's nice to see people actually trying to find out about smart training / nutrition (albeit sometimes with some slightly odd questions :-P) than just volume volume volume volume. (Although volume helps too)

Bhima

Ok ok ok... I'm not too bothered about hematocrit level - that's all I hear when the pros talk about blood values though; I assumed it got higher as you get fitter. I think I got it confused with VO2 Max, the body's maximum oxygen consumption, which is linked to blood/iron with the whole oxygen transport thingy...

Perhaps i'm guilty of over-analysing stuff again. Then again, it's pointless trying to get fitter if I don't understand basic facts about required nutrition. I asked a few people out on a club ride about this stuff and the vast majority of cyclists don't really know what iron is needed for! :shock:

tomb8555

Bhima wrote:

Ok ok ok... I'm not too bothered about hematocrit level - that's all I hear when the pros talk about blood values though; I assumed it got higher as you get fitter. I think I got it confused with VO2 Max, the body's maximum oxygen consumption, which is linked to blood/iron with the whole oxygen transport thingy...

Perhaps i'm guilty of over-analysing stuff again. Then again, it's pointless trying to get fitter if I don't understand basic facts about required nutrition. I asked a few people out on a club ride about this stuff and the vast majority of cyclists don't really know what iron is needed for! :shock:

It was more a compliment than an attack ;-)

Captain Fagor

Bhima wrote:

I asked a few people out on a club ride about this stuff and the vast majority of cyclists don't really know what iron is needed for! :shock:

That's because - in practical terms - most of us don't care. Unless you plan on scientifically controlling your diet, what are you going to do with that knowledge?

Jon8a

Just eat plenty of spinach or other leafy vegetables, plenty of iron there, no need for special dietry suppliments.

If you do take dietry suppliments do some research as just because it contains iron doesn't mean it is easily used by the body. This goes for lots of vitamins and minerals. To put it very (very) simply you won't get iron by sucking a nail*. Also some vitamins are fat soluble where as others ar ewater soluble but that's another topic.

My GF informs me that iron is recycled by the body and it is very unusual for men to be deficient because of this. If you eat too much or have a problem you may become jaundist (sp?) because your body is unable to process it properly and excrete the excess.

In short think about other recovery issues as with a healthy diet your body will cope with iron levels.


*I'm aware this is a massive simplification but I think going into the spectrochemical series and ligand chemistry of transition metals may be a little bit too much.