More Astana fun

2

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  • northernneil
    northernneil Posts: 1,549
    I now have an image of one climbing the tourmalet with his bidon in a brown paper bag
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    anyone think this is a non-story? Anyone really believe teams and riders in the current era of scrutiny are dumping blood bags and transfusion equipment outside the team hotel a the TDF of all races!!...sounds like an exaggerated story to me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Not if you're using something that you're certain won't be found because there's no test for it.
  • fto-si
    fto-si Posts: 402
    Dave_1 wrote:
    anyone think this is a non-story? Anyone really believe teams and riders in the current era of scrutiny are dumping blood bags and transfusion equipment outside the team hotel a the TDF of all races!!...sounds like an exaggerated story to me.

    +1
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  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Let's hope it's a non story. They can test the stuff and if it comes back negative, then great.

    If not, some teams will have big questions to answer.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,726
    Dave_1 wrote:
    anyone think this is a non-story? Anyone really believe teams and riders in the current era of scrutiny are dumping blood bags and transfusion equipment outside the team hotel a the TDF of all races!!...sounds like an exaggerated story to me.

    Yup.
    I think the story is in how the Shack could make a PT licence application, using a manager and team roster that are contracted to somebody else.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    micron wrote:
    Not if you're using something that you're certain won't be found because there's no test for it.

    you're really getting into the realms of fantasy now. So, they have a secret drug and they dump the secret drug in official TDF trash cans cause nobody can test for it? Teams are much more clever than you're giving them credit for. This is a non story IMO and will fade away in a few weeks
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    No secret drug, just blood doping. There's no test for the doping method of choice that's been in use for the entire decade.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    No secret drug, just blood doping. There's no test for the doping method of choice that's been in use for the entire decade.

    teams leave blood bags outside their hotels in bins at the TDF? Do you think they are tht stupid?

    It isn't April 1st
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Like it or not, many riders have been blood doping in recent years. Dr Fuentes's fridge bears testimony to this, it was the blood bank of who's who in cycling at the time.

    Presumably they were disposing of the waste somewhere?

    Still, as I say, let's hope this latest investigation is a non-story and that the syringes contained nothing but vitamins. Although I'm not even keen on the idea of food supplments being taken intravenously, that's not the way to go...
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    Like it or not, many riders have been blood doping in recent years. Dr Fuentes's fridge bears testimony to this, it was the blood bank of who's who in cycling at the time.

    Presumably they were disposing of the waste somewhere?

    Still, as I say, let's hope this latest investigation is a non-story and that the syringes contained nothing but vitamins. Although I'm not even keen on the idea of food supplments being taken intravenously, that's not the way to go...

    like or not??? Do you think I don't believe they dope? It isn't April 1st Kleber...your theory is highly unlikely. They will have people coming and going from the race with the doping stuff...no way are they as stupid as you are suggesting
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • avoidingmyphd
    avoidingmyphd Posts: 1,154
    It's not that unlikely surely. If they are cheating, they have to dispose of the waste somewhere. Where would anyone suggest that wouldn't look stupid retrospectively?
    Smuggle it out of the hotel with someone apparently unconnected to the team is my only suggestion.
    But remember - some/many of the hotels they use for the tour (in mtn stages at least) are not even open to the public in the summer, and those that are are taken over entirely when the tour passes. The tour guests are the only guests. There is no apparently unconnected guest to act as smuggler.
    So alanmcn1 seems on the money to me:
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    4) Stick it in official waste bins which no one has ever heard of being checked before in the history of testing.
    BS is right though - the real story is that the shack's protour application was based on staff contracted elsewhere.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    and Kleber, the riders will have assumed Dr Fuentes would not get raided . Riders will definitely assume they will get raided/have their trash dug through at the TDF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    avoidingmyphd wrote:
    It's not that unlikely surely. If they are cheating, they have to dispose of the waste somewhere. Where would anyone suggest that wouldn't look stupid retrospectively?
    Smuggle it out of the hotel with someone apparently unconnected to the team is my only suggestion.
    But remember - some/many of the hotels they use for the tour (in mtn stages at least) are not even open to the public in the summer, and those that are are taken over entirely when the tour passes. The tour guests are the only guests. There is no apparently unconnected guest to act as smuggler.
    So alanmcn1 seems on the money to me:
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    4) Stick it in official waste bins which no one has ever heard of being checked before in the history of testing.
    BS is right though - the real story is that the shack's protour application was based on staff contracted elsewhere.

    so you think journos and others would not go through their trash? I don't believe that...you'd never dump illegal stuff where it can be looked at even if it is a stinky horrid bin...someone would maybe go through it if it was Team Astana IMO in the hope they could take down livestrong. Riders will leave the race in the evening or have someone visit and leave.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    The blood stored with Fuentes had to be transported to the race and then disposed of, so that's a double logistical operation, the import of the chilled blood and then the disposal of the materials afterwards. I have no theory on how this works, just saying that blood doping has been a fact and so the disposal must happen too.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    The blood stored with Fuentes had to be transported to the race and then disposed of, so that's a double logistical operation, the import of the chilled blood and then the disposal of the materials afterwards. I have no theory on how this works, just saying that blood doping has been a fact and so the disposal must happen too.

    I think Floyd's photos are far nearer the mark Kleber...

    What's being suggested is a bit like say shooting someone and then leaving the gun with your finger prints on it outside in the bin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • avoidingmyphd
    avoidingmyphd Posts: 1,154
    Dave_1 wrote:
    avoidingmyphd wrote:
    some stuff too long to quote again!
    so you think journos and others would not go through their trash? I don't believe that...you'd never dump illegal stuff where it can be looked at even if it is a stinky horrid bin...someone would maybe go through it if it was Team Astana IMO in the hope they could take down livestrong. Riders will leave the race in the evening or have someone visit and leave.
    No I think they would put it in the only trash that is totally off grounds to "journos and others" - the special sealed trash that they are actively excluded from - which, as I understand it, is what is being investigated here.
    I agree entirely with you that putting it in the standard trash can is so stupid that I would hesitate to believe a story that suggested it had happened.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Now you're the one who is speculating!

    As for leaving a gun with fingerprints on it, would this be as stupid as leaving a gun with your dog's name, like Piti or Birillo, engraved on it?
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    avoidingmyphd wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    avoidingmyphd wrote:
    some stuff too long to quote again!
    so you think journos and others would not go through their trash? I don't believe that...you'd never dump illegal stuff where it can be looked at even if it is a stinky horrid bin...someone would maybe go through it if it was Team Astana IMO in the hope they could take down livestrong. Riders will leave the race in the evening or have someone visit and leave.
    No I think they would put it in the only trash that is totally off grounds to "journos and others" - the special sealed trash that they are actively excluded from - which, as I understand it, is what is being investigated here.
    I agree entirely with you that putting it in the standard trash can is so stupid that I would hesitate to believe a story that suggested it had happened.

    so the TDF has trash cans which the riders have been offered for years by the organisers in the safe knowledge they could not be searched ? I don't believe riders would have assumed that trash could not have been searched in many previous years-they will have known what has happened this summer-raking through, could have happened before surely??.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Yes, the sealed "sharps" containers:
    FAM_BEMIS_SHARPS_CONTAINER_1-6314%5B1%5D.jpg
    Maybe some teams didn't think they would be searched?

    Anyway, we can speculate for ages, let's await the details of the investigation...
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    Now you're the one who is speculating!

    As for leaving a gun with fingerprints on it, would this be as stupid as leaving a gun with your dog's name, like Piti or Birillo, engraved on it?
    :) am sure those names were kept at the office-where the riders sense and logic would tell them there is a slim chance of the office being raided in Spain-unlike seeing journos hanging around outside your hotel ...am sure the blood bags would not have been DHLd across to stage 10 of the Giro with the dogs names on them...Basso named Kalk as the courier who he never actually met
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    Yes, the sealed "sharps" containers:
    FAM_BEMIS_SHARPS_CONTAINER_1-6314%5B1%5D.jpg
    Maybe some teams didn't think they would be searched?

    Anyway, we can speculate for ages, let's await the details of the investigation...

    ok..they can be searched clearly :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • fto-si
    fto-si Posts: 402
    Astana response

    http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/news_ ... ation.html
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  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Seems like a load of bollox to me. Who has been holding onto these boxes for the last 3 months ?
    IF I was doping - I wouldn't leave the damning evidence in a box that is linked to my team. The motorbike with the chilled panniers could easily take the paraphenalia away with it.
    Also IF I was doping I would rinse my needles - would a bit of bleach not work ? All DNA gone ?
    And how would anyone know between an innocent vitamin shot or diabetic shot for a team member from something more sinister ?

    It'll come to nothing I reckon.
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    cougie wrote:
    Seems like a load of bollox to me. Who has been holding onto these boxes for the last 3 months ?
    IF I was doping - I wouldn't leave the damning evidence in a box that is linked to my team. The motorbike with the chilled panniers could easily take the paraphenalia away with it.
    Also IF I was doping I would rinse my needles - would a bit of bleach not work ? All DNA gone ?
    And how would anyone know between an innocent vitamin shot or diabetic shot for a team member from something more sinister ?

    It'll come to nothing I reckon.

    If they find bleach in syringes you use you can be sure the testers will target you like crazy.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Rather that than being busted eh ? Remember the stories of riders who pee pure water - no proteins in there at all ?
    Anyway - I bet its a fuss about literally nothing.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    cougie wrote:
    Seems like a load of bollox to me. Who has been holding onto these boxes for the last 3 months ?
    IF I was doping - I wouldn't leave the damning evidence in a box that is linked to my team. The motorbike with the chilled panniers could easily take the paraphenalia away with it.
    Also IF I was doping I would rinse my needles - would a bit of bleach not work ? All DNA gone ?
    And how would anyone know between an innocent vitamin shot or diabetic shot for a team member from something more sinister ?

    It'll come to nothing I reckon.

    +1 youre bang on the money i meah who would leave doping products that can be traced straight back to them when it can be disposed of without knowledge.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    So what we're saying is doping goes on and there's evidence of it with all this gear...

    ...but we'll never be able to pin it on a single team or rider?
  • prawny
    prawny Posts: 5,440
    fto-si wrote:
    Astana response

    http://www.astana-cyclingteam.com/news_ ... ation.html

    Two things;

    One, I was expecting it to be written like Vino'sposts on here :lol:

    And two, anyone else notice that teams and riders always say no riders use illegal products, but don't mention techniques, hmmmm
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  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    It certainly seems to be techniques that are in question here, with the discovery of syringes and blood bags, rather than doping products.

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