More Astana fun

finchy
finchy Posts: 6,686
edited October 2009 in Pro race
French justice is going to open an investigation into the Astana team, following the discovery of several suspicious syringes in containers sent by the organisers to teams for the disposal of medical waste.

The syringes have been sent for analysis.

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves20 ... stana.html

I'd be surprised if anything comes of this - if Astana are doping, would they really dispose of the products using official means?
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Comments

  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Yes, if they thought they were getting preferential treatment.

    The most interesting thing is that this is being reported by Damien Ressiot in Equipe both of whom were supposed to have been effectively muzzled.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    micron wrote:
    Yes, if they thought they were getting preferential treatment.

    Fair point. Still, that would be a hilariously stupid way to get busted.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    johnfinch wrote:
    micron wrote:
    Yes, if they thought they were getting preferential treatment.

    Fair point. Still, that would be a hilariously stupid way to get busted.

    This is cycling we're talking about. Hilariously stupid is par for the course.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Interesting timing as Armstrong, Contador and Bruyneel will all be in Paris tomorrow to answer questions....
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    iainf72 wrote:
    Interesting timing as Armstrong, Contador and Bruyneel will all be in Paris tomorrow to answer questions....

    Nah.......Not to worry, since it was on the Astana licence, any sanctions will be levelled at Vino's new lot and won't effect the Shackmen, under any circumstances. :roll:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Let's just say that the tests proved that the syringes had been used to administer doping products. Obviously without knowing which riders doped and which didn't, would there be any chance of ASO just removing the entire Astana team from the Tour classification, even if individuals can't be suspended?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Isn't it obvious - It's Lance's botox
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • guinea
    guinea Posts: 1,177
    Depending on the syringe and where they were injecting there will be traces of DNA on them. If there was any incrimminating evidence I'm sure they could pinpoint the exact rider.

    However, you've got to ask yourself how valid these tests would be. The syringes would all be dummped together in waste bin which would not have any security around them. They have none of the extra process that goes around with a sanctioned doping test and they could easily be contaminated and tampered with from any source.

    Have they got a 2nd waste bin for a B sample :)

    Frankly, whether the results are +ve or -ve, scientifically, they're not worth anything.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    johnfinch wrote:
    I'd be surprised if anything comes of this - if Astana are doping, would they really dispose of the products using official means?

    Preferential treatment ( and thats still miles away from being proved) or not its highly unlikely they would dispose of the products in this manner.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    guinea wrote:
    Depending on the syringe and where they were injecting there will be traces of DNA on them. If there was any incrimminating evidence I'm sure they could pinpoint the exact rider.

    However, you've got to ask yourself how valid these tests would be. The syringes would all be dummped together in waste bin which would not have any security around them. They have none of the extra process that goes around with a sanctioned doping test and they could easily be contaminated and tampered with from any source.

    Have they got a 2nd waste bin for a B sample :)

    Frankly, whether the results are +ve or -ve, scientifically, they're not worth anything.

    None of that matters when it comes to trying to pin anything at all on Astana.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    Ummm............it makes more sense to dispose of the doping products in official waste bins that are less liekly to be checked than run the risk of being caught throwing them in a bin bag...........????!???!?!?

    Given recent UCI-AFLD spats it looks like the French have reopened their vendetta on doping............no bad thing IMHO. Also last couple of Procycling editons had well written pieces on the Astana tour treatment as well as the recent stuff on Cyclingnews. If accounts are true I wouldnt have worried at all about using official bins for my Cera needles.
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    Ummm............it makes more sense to dispose of the doping products in official waste bins that are less liekly to be checked than run the risk of being caught throwing them in a bin bag...........????!???!?!?

    .

    Ummm ..............surely it makes more sense to dispose of something and make sure it cant be found and if it is it cant be traced to you ????? ? Disposing of something officially that can be traced to you has far more risks associated with being caught even if you were getting preferential traetment.
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • alanmcn1
    alanmcn1 Posts: 531
    Moray Gub wrote:
    alanmcn1 wrote:
    Ummm............it makes more sense to dispose of the doping products in official waste bins that are less liekly to be checked than run the risk of being caught throwing them in a bin bag...........????!???!?!?

    .

    Ummm ..............surely it makes more sense to dispose of something and make sure it cant be found and if it is it cant be traced to you ????? ? Disposing of something officially that can be traced to you has far more risks associated with being caught even if you were getting preferential traetment.

    Depends on how you approach the situation. I guess you and I would cheat differently. I'm coming fomr this viewpoint; There are 4 options to get rid of my doping items

    1) The hotel bin (too many gendarmes)
    2) Black bin bag (too much history of being caught that way)
    3) keep it until after the tour somewhere safe (good idea to have all that stuff hidden somewhere?)
    4) Stick it in official waste bins which no one has ever heard of being checked before in the history of testing.

    maybe I'm just more deceitful than most
    Robert Millar for knighthood
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    It's got to be another red herring. No way would a team be so daft.
    Only two possible scenarios for anything turning up.
    1) a french conspiracy to "spike" Lance.
    2) a JB/LA conspiracy to "spike" Contador.

    Now......where did I put my tinfoil helmet? :roll:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • petejuk
    petejuk Posts: 235
    Proof of doping or not, they are clearly going after Astana. It may be that they are just trying to sew a seed of suspicion. That, together with some Operation Puerto revelations or positive tests before next Tour de France, might be enough evidence to exclude Vino's team next year. This could spell big trouble for Contador if he stays put at Astana.
  • AndyRubio
    AndyRubio Posts: 880
    Imagine if someone who had a grudge against Astana - or any of its riders - pointed the authorities in the right direction.
    My hour on the plinth
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    It's not just Astana. No doubt some people are picking up on this team given the connection to the winner in Contador, plus the presence of Armstrong too.

    But the investigation is focussing on medical waste from several teams, not one. The materials include hundreds of syringes as well as blood transfusion materials, including empty blood bags. If this is true, it means some teams were indeed blood doping in July.

    It'll be interesting to see if DNA testing on the waste could bring results.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Kléber wrote:

    It'll be interesting to see if DNA testing on the waste could bring results.

    That could be interesting. And as this kind of stuff is a crime in France they can operate outside of the rules governing sport.

    But I'm confused. Prudhomme told me yesterday it was all good and cycling had moved on?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    the trash can raking...this is a tried and tested and failed method used before on USPS. Does anyone think livestrong is dumb enough to dump doping syringes in the common trash can?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • thomasmc
    thomasmc Posts: 814
    Dave_1 wrote:
    the trash can raking...this is a tried and tested and failed method used before on USPS. Does anyone think livestrong is dumb enough to dump doping syringes in the common trash can?

    No!
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    It's not just Astana. No doubt some people are picking up on this team given the connection to the winner in Contador, plus the presence of Armstrong too.

    But the investigation is focussing on medical waste from several teams, not one. The materials include hundreds of syringes as well as blood transfusion materials, including empty blood bags. If this is true, it means some teams were indeed blood doping in July.

    It'll be interesting to see if DNA testing on the waste could bring results.

    empty blood bags? where is that?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Dave_1 wrote:
    empty blood bags? where is that?
    It was on Le Monde, they cited "a source close to the case" but this has since been amended to from something like "used blood transfusion materials" to "transfusion materials".
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,711
    Kléber wrote:
    It'll be interesting to see if DNA testing on the waste could bring results.
    A hair sample would be handy, then. :wink:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    It'll be interesting to see if DNA testing on the waste could bring results.
    A hair sample would be handy, then. :wink:

    They'll have loads of DNA, won't they?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Just ventured a look at LAs twitter site... SSDD apparently.
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    johnfinch wrote:
    Just ventured a look at LAs twitter site... SSDD apparently.

    What does SSDD mean?
  • teagar
    teagar Posts: 2,100
    markwalker wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    Just ventured a look at LAs twitter site... SSDD apparently.

    What does SSDD mean?

    Same sh!t different day.
    Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie.
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    teagar wrote:
    markwalker wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    Just ventured a look at LAs twitter site... SSDD apparently.

    What does SSDD mean?

    Same sh!t different day.

    Thanks
  • Tusher
    Tusher Posts: 2,762
    For what it's worth..........

    I assume that they're talking about 'sharps bins'. In the NHS, they tend to be bright yellow and usually live in surgeries, wards et cetera. You'll all have seen one, and it's where the needles (sharps) are immediately placed after giving an injection, taking blood and so on. They should also store anything that's, well, sharp- an ampoule, scissors and so on. All diabetics will have a couple in the house.

    It's just a guess, (because if this is what's happened, then I'm with the 'How could they be so stupid?' brigade'), but medical and nursing staff chuck things into sharps, seal the bin when almost full, and forget about them.

    What I'm trying to say, in a long winded way is- psychologically, medics throw away needles and 'sharps = safe' because nothing ever comes out of sharps. * Once sealed, they vanish (incinerated usually). And I'm guessing that most teams would have use for a sharps bin for changing dressings and so on.

    Out of sight, out of mind.



    They should have used an old coffee jar.


    *Yes, I know that they are highly prized by drug addicts who can open them and reuse the needles. Going rate in certain areas is said to be £30 a bin.
  • markwalker
    markwalker Posts: 953
    Tusher wrote:
    For what it's worth..........

    I assume that they're talking about 'sharps bins'. In the NHS, they tend to be bright yellow and usually live in surgeries, wards et cetera. You'll all have seen one, and it's where the needles (sharps) are immediately placed after giving an injection, taking blood and so on. They should also store anything that's, well, sharp- an ampoule, scissors and so on. All diabetics will have a couple in the house.

    It's just a guess, (because if this is what's happened, then I'm with the 'How could they be so stupid?' brigade'), but medical and nursing staff chuck things into sharps, seal the bin when almost full, and forget about them.

    What I'm trying to say, in a long winded way is- psychologically, medics throw away needles and 'sharps = safe' because nothing ever comes out of sharps. * Once sealed, they vanish (incinerated usually). And I'm guessing that most teams would have use for a sharps bin for changing dressings and so on.

    Out of sight, out of mind.



    They should have used an old coffee jar.


    *Yes, I know that they are highly prized by drug addicts who can open them and reuse the needles. Going rate in certain areas is said to be £30 a bin.


    £30 a bin that is disgusting. Mind you seeing a supercharged tramp probably put them onto it in the first case :)

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