Grand Tour rider tiers

iainf72

That Contador article from the times got me thinking about who's who in terms of Grand Tours. Based on this year I'd say it looks like this. A "+" means I believe they'll be able to move up a level

Tier 1

Contador
Andy Schleck

Tier 2

Evans +
Menchov
Sastre

Tier 3

Frank Schleck
Wiggins
Basso +
Pellazotti
VDV
Gesink +
Valverde
Armstrong

Thoughts?

calvjones

Tier 3 is harsh on Valv.If this year is the benchmark.

If not, where are the Calves?

iainf72

That's because he's only had 1 good run at a GT and it was the Vuelta.

disgruntledgoat

iainf72 wrote:

That's because he's only had 1 good run at a GT and it was the Vuelta.

I thought it was because it's basically a list of Who's Who for France, rather than Grand Tours

iainf72

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I thought it was because it's basically a list of Who's Who for France, rather than Grand Tours

If AC or AS said their goal was to win the Giro or Vuelta, would you not make them the faves?

Cumulonimbus

Sounds good, which tier would you put Nibali in? Same position as Basso im thinking? I suppose Kreuziger's performance this year means he hasnt made it onto the third tier.

RichN95.

All things being equal (e.g. their teammates), I'd still back Evans to beat Schleck due to their relative time-trialling abilities. Only just though and Andy still has more improving to do.

I'd make Nibali a 3+ too.

Kléber

I broadly agree.

Not only three riders on that list are still racing. Wiggins is Down Under and both Gesink and Evans will be doing Lombardy.

gabriel959

I think Valverde should have that "+" too at least, he has won 1 GT something that riders such as VDV will probably never do.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Not only three riders on that list are still racing. Wiggins is Down Under and both Gesink and Evans will be doing Lombardy.

As will Basso

Nibali would be 3+ yes.

Sanchez is another 3 I would say.

afx237vi

Dude, you forgot Tommy D.

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

That Contador article from the times got me thinking about who's who in terms of Grand Tours. Based on this year I'd say it looks like this. A "+" means I believe they'll be able to move up a level

Tier 1

Contador
Andy Schleck

Tier 2

Evans +
Menchov
Sastre

Tier 3

Frank Schleck
Wiggins
Basso +
Pellazotti
VDV
Gesink +
Valverde
Armstrong

Thoughts?

Bertie stands alone for me I'd put Schleck down to group two with a + after all he didnt win a GT this year and for a GC man his TT ability is poor. Based on this year Valverde is tier 2 as he has won a GT and Sastre drops down to group 3 due to his poor TDF showing. A place for Nibs in tier three maybe but for him wiggo and pellizotti its a case of can they repeat this years form i am not so sure.

LangerDan

I'd agree with MG about moving Schleck below Contador - he's not been at the same level this year. I think that he is also going to "suffer majorly" from any introduction of a radio ban - his riding always looks very dependent on instructions from the team car.

I think you could safely stick a "+" next to Armstrongs name.


Afx - Tommy D is currently leading Tier 4.2.3 - "Gluten-free Eskimos" - and is "stoked". He's expected to get sick before the list is finalised,

blazing_saddles

Broadly, I agree with MG and Iain's last post.
Calves?
Bottom of the final climb, he's tier 1.
Half way up the final climb, he's blood, sweat and lots of tears. :P

iainf72

I've just realised I've forgotten Levi and Mick Rogers.

Oh, no, wait...

Ok, so Bertie stands alone.

Who is the most complete rider near to him? Evans?

frenchfighter

I'd move Gesink up as he can also TT fairly well (better than Schlecks).

Cunego I'd have Tier 3 and Basso no plus. Valverde can climb and TT well - I'd put him in Tier2. Sastre Tier 2 maybe a little too high. I'd have Kloden in Tier 3. Menchov Tier 3 not 2.

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

Cunego I'd have Tier 3 and Basso no plus. Valverde can climb and TT well - I'd put him in Tier2. Sastre Tier 2 maybe a little too high. I'd have Kloden in Tier 3. Menchov Tier 3 not 2.

Cunego isn't really a GT guy anymore. I think even by his own admission.

Menchov utterly dominated the Giro and has 3 GT's under his belt. I'd say if he's on song he would be on a par with Evans

To be honest, I nearly forgot Sastre however he did come 4'th in the Giro this year.

frenchfighter

Menchov beat Di Luca....

I dislike him a lot too which may cloud my view but I don't think he is as good a rider as some people make him out to be. As for two of the GTs - they were Vueltas.

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

I dislike him a lot too which may cloud my view but I don't think he is as good a rider as some people make him out to be. As for two of the GTs - they were Vueltas.

They were. 4'th and 5'th in the Tour as well

There is all that Vienna stuff of course but we'll just ignore that for now...

blazing_saddles

frenchfighter wrote:

I'd move Gesink up as he can also TT fairly well (better than Schlecks).
Cunego I'd have Tier 3 and Basso no plus. Valverde can climb and TT well - I'd put him in Tier2. Sastre Tier 2 maybe a little too high. I'd have Kloden in Tier 3. Menchov Tier 3 not 2.

So, in effect, you'd move Gesink, with so far no podiums in any GTs above Menchov, with 3 overall wins and Sastre, with a Tour de France overall and 3 or 4 podiums?

| think you are placing a lot of emphasis on potential, not much on actual palmares.
Which makes Cunego's rating even more of an oddity.

frenchfighter

Of course potential as we are talking about the future (well at least I was) not ranking their achievements. Gesink can climb super well, TT well and has a great attacking attitude. I am really looking forward to him next year. His palmares this year is by no means bear and had he not have had to withdraw from the Tour I would have had him top 5 or at least top 10.

How did Menchov do in this year's Tour? Is a 51st placing a Tier 2 ride do you think?

FJS

iainf72 wrote:

Tier 1

Contador
Andy Schleck

Tier 2

Evans +
Menchov
Sastre

Tier 3

Frank Schleck
Wiggins
Basso +
Pellazotti
VDV
Gesink +
Valverde
Armstrong

Thoughts?

Pretty much as I would rank them. I would put Contador alone in Tier 1 for this year, with Andy Schleck in Tier 2 with a + for next year. I would give all three of your Tier 2s a "-" for next year, because of age and Evans because I can see him more going the Cunego route of the classics. I would also put Basso in Tier 3, but without a +; I would put Nibali in there with a +, and Kreuziger without a plus. I would put Valverde in Tier 2 with a "-". I would put Frank Schleck and VDV in Tier 4, or just not in at all for this year. Frank can do top-10s or even top-5s, but will never be a real challenger with hs poor TT.

iainf72

FJS wrote:

I would also put Basso in Tier 3, but without a +; I would put Nibali in there with a +, and Kreuziger without a plus.

I still think Basso is better than Nibali. If Basso had done this years Tour I expect he would've come in 3rd or 4th. Basso will also be better next year hence the +.

I feel a bit light headed with this cycling discussion

moray_gub

frenchfighter wrote:

Of course potential as we are talking about the future (well at least I was) not ranking their achievements. Gesink can climb super well, TT well and has a great attacking attitude. I am really looking forward to him next year. His palmares this year is by no means bear and had he not have had to withdraw from the Tour I would have had him top 5 or at least top 10.

How did Menchov do in this year's Tour? Is a 51st placing a Tier 2 ride do you think?

Based on this year and thats what Iains original post was about (not that we cant alter the parameters mind you) Gesink wouldnt make the top three tiers. Now if we are talking potential yep he has that and he has it his make up to be a top GC rider that but i remain unconvinced he seems to have a habit of having flinging in the odd bad day thats usually catastrophic for him in GC terms

Kléber

He's just been unlucky with injury. Clearly bike handling matters, Gesink lost Paris-Nice because he couldn't follow the pace on a descent and his lanky shape doesn't help. A real talent but like Theunisse or Soler he is probably better suited to aiming for a podium and the KOM.

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

FJS wrote:

I would also put Basso in Tier 3, but without a +; I would put Nibali in there with a +, and Kreuziger without a plus.

I still think Basso is better than Nibali. If Basso had done this years Tour I expect he would've come in 3rd or 4th. Basso will also be better next year hence the +.

I feel a bit light headed with this cycling discussion

Iain i get the feeling you'd love it if Ivan was able to do this again

iainf72

Moray Gub wrote:

Iain i get the feeling you'd love it if Ivan was able to do this again

Yup.

I'm such a fanboi

I don't know if you saw Trentino this year but he was a bit like his old self. Monstered DDL as I recall

stagehopper

Nibali was the one missing for me, but he's been adequately covered. I'd keep Andy Schleck in the top tier though and instead put a + next to Contador as I think he can get even better in a team which concentrates on him and loows him freedom to attack when he wants.

FJS

iainf72 wrote:

FJS wrote:

I would also put Basso in Tier 3, but without a +; I would put Nibali in there with a +, and Kreuziger without a plus.

I still think Basso is better than Nibali.

I agree

iainf72 wrote:

If Basso had done this years Tour I expect he would've come in 3rd or 4th.

I agree

iainf72 wrote:

Basso will also be better next year hence the +.

I don't agree. Well, it's all speculation anyway. Let's see next year.

iainf72 wrote:

I feel a bit light headed with this cycling discussion

I know, I know

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

That's because he's only had 1 good run at a GT and it was the Vuelta.

a win is a win though

mididoctors

Tier 1

Contador


Tier 2
Andy Schleck+
Menchov


Tier 3
Evans + (ttt)
Wiggins(-) flash in the pan?
Pellazotti
Gesink +
Valverde+
Sastre(-) fading
Nibali
Kreuznigger
Sammy