Ortlieb Back Roller pannier, correct useage

attica

Just got some lovely Ortlieb Rollers and was quite happily using them as suggested in various photos, rolling the top 3 or 4 times clipping over that then clipping the shoulder strap on round the hook at the bottom.

Then I popped into my local Evans (in order to get an inner tube and some batteries for my tail light- they didn't have the batteries!) and got chatting to one of the staff, he said I should remove the shoulder strap and clip the two clips for the shoulder strap together to create a better waterproof seal.

So I was just wondering which way everyone else tends to clip them up.

(If my descriptions are rubbish, let me know and I'll sort some photos)

Thanks in advance

pneumatic

I know what you mean and I tend to roll and clip the ends together at the top. The shoulder straps live at the bottom of the bag. I've never actually used them.

raybo

I started clipping them up but changed to clipping them with the shoulder straps under the hook.

Here are my reasons:

I didn't like the way the panniers were stretched to clip on the top.

It seemed that it was easier for rain to get into them when I was unrolling when clipped at the top.

The loop above the bag interferes with anything I have on either rack.

Ray

andymiller

pneumatic wrote:

I know what you mean and I tend to roll and clip the ends together at the top. The shoulder straps live at the bottom of the bag. I've never actually used them.

Me too.

attica

raybo wrote:

I started clipping them up but changed to clipping them with the shoulder straps under the hook.

Here are my reasons:

I didn't like the way the panniers were stretched to clip on the top.

It seemed that it was easier for rain to get into them when I was unrolling when clipped at the top.

The loop above the bag interferes with anything I have on either rack.

Ray

Damn, this is going to prove wonderfully inconclusive.
I tend to agree with Raybo because of the stretching thing which was why I posted in the first place. I'm concerned about the fabric, I have the roll back plus with the galvanisation (rubbery stuff) on the inside but fabric on the outside.
Anybody had these for a while and had any problems with loss of waterproofing thanks to stretching/creasing the fabric?

Thanks for the replies so far folks

pneumatic

had mine for six years and they are still as good as new.

As far as I can see the only way to damage them is to really overfill them and force them closed, to crash at high speed onto very rough tarmac or to leave them behind when going through those annoying barriers at the ends of cycle paths.

andymiller

Attica wrote:

Damn, this is going to prove wonderfully inconclusive.
I tend to agree with Raybo because of the stretching thing which was why I posted in the first place. I'm concerned about the fabric, I have the roll back plus with the galvanisation (rubbery stuff) on the inside but fabric on the outside.
Anybody had these for a while and had any problems with loss of waterproofing thanks to stretching/creasing the fabric?

Thanks for the replies so far folks

I've not had mine for very long so I can't help on that one. What I would say is that drybags that aren't designed to work with shoulder straps work in the same way.

But at the end of the day, to hell with 'right' and 'wrong': if you'd rather just roll the closure and then use the compression strap then go for it. After all the worst that can happen is that you get some water in there - pretty unikely I'd have thought, and not the end of the world if it does.

Of course you could always ask Ortlieb if it's really bugging you.

Cunobelin

Personal experience is that both work.

The waterproof closure will only fail if there are insufficient folds. Securing works either way, with the central strap cinching it shut.

I tend to use the clip together when commuting, and the strap method when touring or when I am likely to carry them any distance.

attica

Thanks Cunobelin, that was pretty much the conclusion I was starting to draw..

dilemna

I've seen there are similar panniers to the Ortlieb Back Roller Classics done by Vaude which secure on the sides of the bag - the logical way, which seems a much better method. Wish I had got some of these .

I secure my Ortlieb panniers together through my rack using the clips rather than looping the rolled tops on themselves which looks weird and likely to collect water and allow ingress into the bag. The shoulder strap does not seem that strong. I wouldn't like to trust a full rear pannier bag to them.

andymiller

dilemna wrote:

I've seen there are similar panniers to the Ortlieb Back Roller Classics done by Vaude which secure on the sides of the bag - the logical way, which seems a much better method. Wish I had got some of these .

I'm a bit confused: didn't you do a long review about them?

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... iers-33924

Or did you mean that you wish you'd bought the Vades before you bought the Orliebs? Or are there two 'dilemna's?

attica

Rumbled?

rhext

I use the shoulder strap and clip. The other way works, but I find it more difficult to fasten, and it doesn't look as neat.

pneumatic

My touring buddy has the Vaudes and wishes he had bought the Ortliebs.

Seems to me that more important than the roll closures are the fittings to the rack. Now they do vary in quality/functionality and I've seen a few fail over the years.

Magnus Thor

I have had my back rollers for five years now, use them for touring and commuting in the Icelandic snow and sleet - completely waterproof and still going strong. Like some, my shoulder strap lives at the bottom of the bag and I've never used it, I think.
I can't really imagine a better pannier bag or a better system. The Ortliebs just seem to work, work and keep working. And you can always be certain that whatever you stuff into them comes out dry when you need it.


Magnus Thor
Iceland

dilemna

andymiller wrote:

dilemna wrote:

I've seen there are similar panniers to the Ortlieb Back Roller Classics done by Vaude which secure on the sides of the bag - the logical way, which seems a much better method. Wish I had got some of these .

I'm a bit confused: didn't you do a long review about them?

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... iers-33924

Or did you mean that you wish you'd bought the Vades before you bought the Orliebs? Or are there two 'dilemna's?

Yup, you're quite right Watson. I bought a pair of Vaude panniers after I had purchased the Ortlieb panniers as initially I couldn't find a suitably near cycle shop that sold the Vaude panniers and had them in stock. So I gave up and bought some Ortlieb panniers. As is the way I then found TwoWheelsGood in London that sold them and they would have a new delivery in a couple of weeks. So I went down to London to check them out and ended up buying a pair. Apparently they sell out of them quickly. The Vaude panniers are discernably better than the Ortliebs which are good but the Vaude are better. General usage is much easier and the rack hooks are better. The plastic inserts to space out the hook for the rack don't fall out. The carrying handles have comfortable protective tubes to carry them whereas the Ortliebs don't.

graemetherunner

I'd dissagree in part to the above, the Vaude are not 'better' and the bags hooks are the reason why they are not better. The metal and plastic combination of the hook's catch is poor design & over time they become sloppy as when on the bike they are under constant load (unlike the ortlieb catch). Eventually if worn enough the bag will just fall off the rack if you hit a bump. The above process can all be accelarated if you ride on rough ground with full loads.


I'd much rather loose an insert of a hook than have a bag that falls off on tour. (the ql2 hooks and inserts have been improved & this is now less likely to happen). I'd recommend not carrying the panniers around on the "handle" & instead use the shoulder strap - it's plenty strong enough, I've used it slung over my shoulder as a shopping sack & had it full of bottles & tins.

dilemna

graemetherunner wrote:

I'd dissagree in part to the above, the Vaude are not 'better' and the bags hooks are the reason why they are not better. The metal and plastic combination of the hook's catch is poor design & over time they become sloppy as when on the bike they are under constant load (unlike the ortlieb catch). Eventually if worn enough the bag will just fall off the rack if you hit a bump. The above process can all be accelarated if you ride on rough ground with full loads.


I'd much rather loose an insert of a hook than have a bag that falls off on tour. (the ql2 hooks and inserts have been improved & this is now less likely to happen). I'd recommend not carrying the panniers around on the "handle" & instead use the shoulder strap - it's plenty strong enough, I've used it slung over my shoulder as a shopping sack & had it full of bottles & tins.

So Graeme you seem to know a lot about both makes of pannier. Do you own both and have put them both to long term testing? I'm not saying the Ortliebs are bad, they are inded good, but for me the Vaude Aqua Pro Plus are just better they are easier to get on with day to day. The issues you may or may not have had with them yourself, as opposed to reading second hand about them, I have not experienced. I use them everyday and they get a fair work out. I have not experienced any of the criticisms you have made about the Vaude. Have you actually owned a pair of these Vaude panniers and when?

graemetherunner

Hi, I'm in a fortunate position of having owned the ortlieb roller plus for about 10 years now I think (the early version where the inserts fell out). And my partner has a set of Vaude world tramp2 for about 5 years that I bought her. Like you I have in the past praised the vaude for not loosing the insert, I even recommended them to friends... 1 pair friends took my advice & went touring in madagascar, their bags started to fall off after just 3 weeks as the roads (or lack of) were rough. Hence comments about riding on rough surfaces accelerates the problem. They now use ortliebs without a problem.

Like you say - I'm not saying the Vaude are bad, but the feature that you think is the improvement is infact the bags weakness. (Have a look at your catches, do they still shut totally closed? or do they now have some play and a bit of a gap at the bottom?)

This thread started about the rolling & clipping of the tops and while the vaude have buckles fixed to the side of the bag, it's just what you get used to. I prefer the ortliebs & I also use the strap when touring, hooking under the lower guide. When commuting I quite often don't use the strap, either way I've not had a leak.

dilemna

graemetherunner wrote:

Hi, I'm in a fortunate position of having owned the ortlieb roller plus for about 10 years now I think (the early version where the inserts fell out). And my partner has a set of Vaude world tramp2 for about 5 years that I bought her. Like you I have in the past praised the vaude for not loosing the insert, I even recommended them to friends... 1 pair friends took my advice & went touring in madagascar, their bags started to fall off after just 3 weeks as the roads (or lack of) were rough. Hence comments about riding on rough surfaces accelerates the problem. They now use ortliebs without a problem.

Like you say - I'm not saying the Vaude are bad, but the feature that you think is the improvement is infact the bags weakness. (Have a look at your catches, do they still shut totally closed? or do they now have some play and a bit of a gap at the bottom?)

This thread started about the rolling & clipping of the tops and while the vaude have buckles fixed to the side of the bag, it's just what you get used to. I prefer the ortliebs & I also use the strap when touring, hooking under the lower guide. When commuting I quite often don't use the strap, either way I've not had a leak.

Well I have the Vaude Aqua Pro Plus bags, not the World tramp bags, the ones with the outer side pocket which is invaluable. No problems with my hooks, solid as rocks and no rattling. Vaude must have improved them. They are also lockable. Having used my Ortlieb Roller Classics for a few months I was relieved when I got my Vaudes and now use them in preference to the Ortliebs. Both bags are durable and totally water proof.

andymiller

dilemna wrote:

General usage is much easier and the rack hooks are better. The plastic inserts to space out the hook for the rack don't fall out. The carrying handles have comfortable protective tubes to carry them whereas the Ortliebs don't.

I agree that the inserts are nice, ditto the handles but I've actually switched the other way from Vaude Discovery Pros to Backpackers - mainly because the Discovery Pros weren't waterproof. I was also less than impressed by the fact that the screws in the plastic backplate rusted after less than a month's use (OK with several days of torrential rain). I'm not saying the Ortliebs won't go the same way but so far they haven't.

dilemna

andymiller wrote:

dilemna wrote:

General usage is much easier and the rack hooks are better. The plastic inserts to space out the hook for the rack don't fall out. The carrying handles have comfortable protective tubes to carry them whereas the Ortliebs don't.

I agree that the inserts are nice, ditto the handles but I've actually switched the other way from Vaude Discovery Pros to Backpackers - mainly because the Discovery Pros weren't waterproof. I was also less than impressed by the fact that the screws in the plastic backplate rusted after less than a month's use (OK with several days of torrential rain). I'm not saying the Ortliebs won't go the same way but so far they haven't.

Perhaps you should have bought the Vaude Aqua Pro Plus instead which are waterproof ......... and the panniers to which my comments relate,

http://www.vaude.com/epages/Vaude-de.sf ... /151340310

andymiller

dilemna wrote:

Perhaps you should have bought the Vaude Aqua Pro Plus instead which are waterproof ......... and the panniers to which my comments relate,

Yes I know they are different. However I suspect the backplate and the screws to fix them are the same - and these are the reason why I wouldn't buy Vaude panniers again. (That and paying £90 for a pair of panniers that weren't waterproof - OK perhaps I should have read the spec more carefully).

The conclusion I came to was that I should have bought the Ortliebs in the first place. I'm very happy with them: I have no problem doing them up, and I spent maybe a couple of seconds considering where to put the carrying straps. They are lighter than the Aqua Plus by some way. I expect to continue to be happy with them for a long time. So I have no regrets about not paying more for the claimed benefits of the Aqua Plus.

dilemna

andymiller wrote:

dilemna wrote:

Perhaps you should have bought the Vaude Aqua Pro Plus instead which are waterproof ......... and the panniers to which my comments relate,

Yes I know they are different. However I suspect the backplate and the screws to fix them are the same - and these are the reason why I wouldn't buy Vaude panniers again. (That and paying £90 for a pair of panniers that weren't waterproof - OK perhaps I should have read the spec more carefully).

The conclusion I came to was that I should have bought the Ortliebs in the first place. I'm very happy with them: I have no problem doing them up, and I spent maybe a couple of seconds considering where to put the carrying straps. They are lighter than the Aqua Plus by some way. I expect to continue to be happy with them for a long time. So I have no regrets about not paying more for the claimed benefits of the Aqua Plus.

Well I'm pleased for you. I'm sure you and your Ortliebs will be very happy together. But I am glad I bought the slightly more expensive Vaude Aqua Plus panniers even though I have the Ortlieb Roller Classics. I believe the slightly greater cost was worth it given most importantly the inclusion of a side pocket and ease of opening and fastening the roll top. Plus the hardback makes them very robust. I've not experienced any of problems you describe with screws and rust. They are certainly NOT heavy and definitely not significantly any heavier than the Ortliebs. Each to their own.

dunq

Hey Dilemma,

I'm contemplating making the switch from Ortlieb Back Roller Classic to Vaude Aqua Plus. But this hook thing bugs me. How long have you had yours now, and are you noticing any loosening of the hook yet? Are you riding on unpaved roads much?

cheers in advance.

dilemna

dunq wrote:

Hey Dilemma,

I'm contemplating making the switch from Ortlieb Back Roller Classic to Vaude Aqua Plus. But this hook thing bugs me. How long have you had yours now, and are you noticing any loosening of the hook yet? Are you riding on unpaved roads much?

cheers in advance.

Don't listen to the others' negative comments about the Vaude hooks as none of them seem to have personal experience of the Vaude Aqua expedition range or more specifically the rear Aqua Plus panniers. Mine have been fine. The hooks are rock solid and perform faultessly. The panniers are much easier to get on and off the rack than the Ortliebs I find. The Ortlieb hook has a spring loaded catch on the underside of the hook so you have to open this for the pannier to hook onto the rack. With the Vaude hook they go straight on then click shut when you let go of the carry strap and push the hook closed - neat. There is no way the bag can fall off the rack. My panniers are nearly 18 months old function fine, still scrub up like new and are still 100% waterproof. I used my rear Ortlieb Roller Classics the other week as I fancied a change as they are yellow. It was noticeable how much more the backs of the Roller Classics and the plastic rails that the hooks attach to bend in comparison to the set up of the Vaude hardbacks of my Aqua Plus which are so much more rigid. I find the use of the side pockets which have been 100% waterproof invaluable. I usually ride on tarmac sometimes covered in thick mud from the Fen fields, but there are several stretches where I am riding on unmade tracks which are pretty bumpy. Never had a problem with the Vaude panniers rattling or coming off. The Ortliebs though did rattle around a bit more last week they made a lot more noise.

Dave Holmes on his tour of South America on CGOAB was berating Ortlieb for the poor design of the lower hook which had fallen off early on in his tour as the roads he was riding were pretty rough.

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page ... 98015&v=el

6. Pannier clips x 2. These are the clips which secure the bottom of your panniers to the racks. I am annoyed at Ortleib for this. To lose one is unfortunate but two suggests something is wrong. It is - They are designed to be adjustable to fit all racks so you can only hand tighten them. Every few days on this tour I have had to retighten them but Ortleib, who have been in the business for years and are the panniers of choice for many cyclists, ought to know better and that anything not bolted or screwed down on a rough road like this will come loose. To make something that you can only hand tighten only is an oversight on their part and I suggest they go back to the drawing board. Fortunately I have a cheap fix in mind using string and a climbing caribena

Vaude uses a bolt with an Allen key head to secure the hook which itself is more robust. It is a lot better IMHO.

Check out the comments on Ortlieb panniers in long term reviews on this thread on CGOAB.com,

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/ ... R&nested=0

Go for the rear Vaude Aqua Plus you won't be disappointed. BTW I notice they have modified the main rack hooks so they are now tightened by hand using an orange plastic wheel. Not sure how effective this will be at keeping the hooks in place. My hooks have bolts with Allen Key heads meaning you can get them nice and tight so no chance of them working loose. Whether the new hooks still allow tightening with a multi tool allen key I don't know. But the bags themselves are excellent. The Aqua bar bag is pretty good. I have one although it has not had much use yet. On the occasions it has been out in the very wet the contents have remained totally dry.

captainstegs

Dilemma,

My Ortlieb Back Roller Classics arrived a couple of weeks ago. I've not used them enough to come to a considered opinion as to whether they are any good. My six points of note are however as follows.

1. All the hooks on the back of my Ortliebs attach using allen key bolts and are not hand tightened. This can be seen in Neil Gunton's photos from the second link of your post above. No idea how old Dave Holmes Ortlebs were, but they obviously differ from the current models. Are the hooks on the back of your Ortliebs only able to be done up hand tight or are they allen key ones too?

2. The Ortlieb Bottom clip only just fits my rack (my rack being a seat post jobby with sides). Maybe Ortlieb's system could do with being a bit more adjustable. Vaudes system certainly looks a lot more adjustable.

3. I wish I could remove all the straps on the Ortlieb that are associated with putting a rack bag on top. They add weight and just get in the way in the meantime.

4. My Ortliebs spring loaded catch is part of the handle so they drop on in what sounds to be exactly the same way as the Vaudes. You let go of the handle and they click shut. Again you can see this spring loaded handle catch in Neil Gunton's photos from the second link in your post. Grab the handle and the bags lift right off.

5. For the weight weenies, taking values from the company websites, The Vaudes weigh in at 2.4Kg for the pair, whilst the Ortliebs weigh in at 1.9Kg. So the Vaudes are 26% heavier than the Ortliebs, but that's the downside to the solid back.

6. Cost. I got the Ortliebs from Wiggle for £77.80. The cheapest I could find the Vaude Aqua back plus for was £96.93. So the Ortliebs are £20 a pair cheaper.

The main thing that lead me to choose the Ortliebs though were the number of positive reviews I read. Bearing in mind the numbers in which they sell there are bound to be some negatives that people have with the bags. I couldn't find any negative reviews on the Vaudes but then again I couldn't even find 10 reviews on them, whilst I could find over 130 positive Ortlieb reviews on Wiggle alone.

The strong following the Ortliebs bags have, the lovely black and white colour scheme I was able to go for to match my bike, the overall positive reviews, the cheaper price, and the lower weight all lead me to choose the Ortliebs. The only thing to do now is use the damn things and see how they perform. Hopefully the Ortliebs have improved since you bought yours and I won't have to eat my hat/helmet and have any problems in the years to come.

andrew_s

captainstegs wrote:

2. The Ortlieb Bottom clip only just fits my rack (my rack being a seat post jobby with sides). Maybe Ortlieb's system could do with being a bit more adjustable. Vaudes system certainly looks a lot more adjustable.

Back Rollers on a seatpost rack sounds decidedly dodgy to me. What's the weight limit?

dilemna

andrew_s wrote:

captainstegs wrote:

2. The Ortlieb Bottom clip only just fits my rack (my rack being a seat post jobby with sides). Maybe Ortlieb's system could do with being a bit more adjustable. Vaudes system certainly looks a lot more adjustable.

Back Rollers on a seatpost rack sounds decidedly dodgy to me. What's the weight limit?

Yes it doesn't sound a very good idea. I would have thought a proper rack was the only real ans best option, but hey ho, some joe will come up with something off the wall ......................

dilemna

captainstegs wrote:

Dilemma,

My Ortlieb Back Roller Classics arrived a couple of weeks ago. I've not used them enough to come to a considered opinion as to whether they are any good. My six points of note are however as follows.

1. All the hooks on the back of my Ortliebs attach using allen key bolts and are not hand tightened. This can be seen in Neil Gunton's photos from the second link of your post above. No idea how old Dave Holmes Ortlebs were, but they obviously differ from the current models. Are the hooks on the back of your Ortliebs only able to be done up hand tight or are they allen key ones too?

2. The Ortlieb Bottom clip only just fits my rack (my rack being a seat post jobby with sides). Maybe Ortlieb's system could do with being a bit more adjustable. Vaudes system certainly looks a lot more adjustable.

3. I wish I could remove all the straps on the Ortlieb that are associated with putting a rack bag on top. They add weight and just get in the way in the meantime.

4. My Ortliebs spring loaded catch is part of the handle so they drop on in what sounds to be exactly the same way as the Vaudes. You let go of the handle and they click shut. Again you can see this spring loaded handle catch in Neil Gunton's photos from the second link in your post. Grab the handle and the bags lift right off.

5. For the weight weenies, taking values from the company websites, The Vaudes weigh in at 2.4Kg for the pair, whilst the Ortliebs weigh in at 1.9Kg. So the Vaudes are 26% heavier than the Ortliebs, but that's the downside to the solid back.

6. Cost. I got the Ortliebs from Wiggle for £77.80. The cheapest I could find the Vaude Aqua back plus for was £96.93. So the Ortliebs are £20 a pair cheaper.

The main thing that lead me to choose the Ortliebs though were the number of positive reviews I read. Bearing in mind the numbers in which they sell there are bound to be some negatives that people have with the bags. I couldn't find any negative reviews on the Vaudes but then again I couldn't even find 10 reviews on them, whilst I could find over 130 positive Ortlieb reviews on Wiggle alone.

The strong following the Ortliebs bags have, the lovely black and white colour scheme I was able to go for to match my bike, the overall positive reviews, the cheaper price, and the lower weight all lead me to choose the Ortliebs. The only thing to do now is use the damn things and see how they perform. Hopefully the Ortliebs have improved since you bought yours and I won't have to eat my hat/helmet and have any problems in the years to come.

Hi,

I don't think you have properly grasped the differences I have tried to describe between the two types of hooks that Ortlieb and Vaude use. They are totally different. The Vaude have recently started using hooks that are mounted to their bags using a finger orange toggle wheel which I don't like the look of at all. My Aqua fronts have them. It is difficult to be sure you have got the toggle tight enough so the hook itself won't move or work loose as finger tight is no where near as tight as an Allen key can tighten a bolt. I did get some of their older hooks with the Allen key headed cap bolts before they were NLA but have yet to swap them over.

As for weight you don't even notice the slightly greater weight of the Vaude panniers when on the bike and riding around, well I don't.

As regards fastening/closing of the two types of bag - Vaude is the far more intuitive and easier, but even then with both bags, ok I mostly use my Vaude bags now, all I do is roll the top and fasten the middle tie. I don't bother folding the ends. Even in heavy rain I have found that no water gets in. The time saving and faff of not folding the ends down or up or wherever is worth it, plus they are so much quicker to open up.

I don't know where you get your rosy eyed view of Ortlieb panniers? WIggle ...........

Whilst Ortlieb panniers are good there are other makes which do the job just as well.

A few long term world tourers would have literally had their Ortlieb panniers fall apart if it were not for duct tape. Dave Holmes had new Ortlieb Roller Classic panniers AFAIK. My Ortlieb roller Classics were bought new by me almost 2 years ago now. A full set front and year. They have had little use. They are yellow. So if anyone wants to make me a sensible offer for them ..............

captainstegs

Yes, it's not ideal having them on a seat post mounted rack. It sits too high and there is a weight limit of 40lbs or so. But I've had the rack for 10 years now, it's not let me down and it isn't one of these quick release jobbies that they do now, it's one that takes 4 allen key bolts to mount to the seat post, making it really solid. And before anyone asks, no, it isn't a carbon post (I think we can all agree that would be a disaster).

I got the rack in my student days when I thought it looked cooler than a proper rack. I am now fully aware of the benefits of a proper rack, even though I do still think they look a bit naff.

I will probably upgrade to a proper rear rack now that I've got my first set of panniers but I'll give it a go as is for a bit.

Dilemma,

As far as my "rosey view" of Ortliebs go. I've pointed out on this forum a few issues I already have with them even though I've only had them a couple of weeks so my view can hardly be, somewhat nastily, dismissed as "rosey". I have indeed gathered opinions from Wiggle as stated in my previous post so I fail to understand how you couldn't know, unless you hadn't read my post properly. I have gathered opinions from sites such as;
bikeradar
Crazyguyonabike,
Wiggle,
www.reviewcentre.com
Evans Cycles
facewest.co.uk
amazon.co.uk
amazon.com
epinions
thebikelist
and more.

All have given positive reviews for the Ortlieb panniers.

I have tried finding reviews for Vaude Aqua Panniers, and have struggled (at the time I was trying to choose between the Ortlieb's or the Vaudes)
I have read opinions on
bikeradar
Crazyguyonabike,
Wiggle,
amazon and road cycling uk
again all reviews are positive

Dilemma,

I think you're taking up a bit too much of a "You're either with me or you're against me" kind of attitude with this forum. I'm not saying the Vaude's aren't better than the Ortliebs, but the weight of public opinion, and sales points to the Ortliebs being the better bag. Your opinion adds to the debate greatly but it is somewhat vain to dismiss everybody else's opinions so single handedly. A great deal of reviews I've read are from riders who've used the same Ortlieb bags for decades and have been more than happy with them.

I've found your comments useful and I will try fastening my bag as you suggest rather than strapping the ends down. I may buy Vaude products in the future, I have heard nothing but good things about them.