Gym training to become a better cyclist?
Oshiboi
Posts: 4
I'm looking to do Lands End to John O'Groats next summer, and so i've started track cycling to get my fitness back up. Can anyone tell me what gym exercises/training I can do to help me last longer on the bike?
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just started yesterday on a programme drawn up by my coach, have been racing for10 years and never been in a gym!
It's mainly squats, lunges and step ups with weights. Very high weight and low reps for building strength. I'm stiff in places I didn't know I could be this morning, so it must be doing something!"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Really good you brought this up, just started a project on resistance training for cyclists! (fecking lecturers giving me coursework on my 3rd day back!).
Firstly I wouldn't really bother doing any cardiovascular exercises in the gym, they are less effective then just going outside on your bike or running (less oxygen inside = less training). The only cardio exercise you might want to do in the gym is interval training if you don't normally do it outside (i.e getting on the exercise bike, 5 minutes of light riding, 5 mins of heavy climbing and repeat).
As goat mentioned, squats, lunges and step ups are very good. Although I would have to recommend knee protectors as heavy weight squats can really ruin your knees, specially with cycling on top of that. Although, for a cyclist I would not recommend very high weight and low reps, as this will do very little good for cycling, Your better off (imo, many will disagree with me!) doing the majority of your work as Muscular Endurance Resistance training, Which could be something like:
3+ sets
15+ reps
15RM (<70% 1RM)
Fatigue at end of each set
Short rest periods (30s or less)
Of squats, lunges, and step ups, but also a work on your arms and body for climbing, as it will help and take some of the pressure off your legs, the last thing you need is a injury!
If you would like more info, send me a pm, I have a ton of presentations and information from various exercise scientists.0 -
Ride more.Oshiboi wrote:I'm looking to do Lands End to John O'Groats next summer, and so i've started track cycling to get my fitness back up. Can anyone tell me what gym exercises/training I can do to help me last longer on the bike?0 -
I run 10km every evening through the winter - in the gym - on the treadmill. Are you saying this is a total waste of my time?Penn wrote:Firstly I wouldn't really bother doing any cardiovascular exercises in the gym, they are less effective then just going outside on your bike or running (less oxygen inside = less training). The only cardio exercise you might want to do in the gym is interval training if you don't normally do it outside (i.e getting on the exercise bike, 5 minutes of light riding, 5 mins of heavy climbing and repeat).0 -
ju5t1n wrote:
I run 10km every evening through the winter - in the gym - on the treadmill. Are you saying this is a total waste of my time?Penn wrote:Firstly I wouldn't really bother doing any cardiovascular exercises in the gym, they are less effective then just going outside on your bike or running (less oxygen inside = less training). The only cardio exercise you might want to do in the gym is interval training if you don't normally do it outside (i.e getting on the exercise bike, 5 minutes of light riding, 5 mins of heavy climbing and repeat).
If there is less oxygen then wouldn't that be akin to altitude training?More problems but still living....0 -
Reduced oxygen would surely make training more effective, not less? It's a moot point as I doubt the composition of air indoors is much different to the air outdoors. The reason treadmills aren't as effective as 'real' running is because they're basically easier to run on.
Anyway.....what Alex says. Weights won't help you cycle further, this has come up so many times recently it's starting to become one of my pet hates. Search the forum for winter training / gym work, plenty of posts discussing this already.0 -
Cycling to become a better cyclist. (unless you are part of the elite and a full time athlete)0
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I'd have to fundamentally disagree with Penn. (Hope the person marking the work doesn't :twisted: )
First why 3 sets? Why 15 reps? Penn doesn't know anything about you so you need to be careful about taking rep and set advice from someone this way.
Second, I never have athletes (I'm an athletics coach not a cycling coach even though I'm a cyclist) train to fatigue as it is counter-productive and certain to lead to overtaining and/or under-recovery.
Lastly, there are resistance exercises you can do if all else fails, but as Alex says, get out on the bike, especially for lejog. You could do starts and hill repeats to increase strength if you fell this is a weakness.
Any training you do should be progressive (pushing further, harder, more reps, whatever) without fatiguing over a period of time.
Disgrunteldgoat - honestly, Id be asking your coach what he's trying to achieve and why those exercises are likely to improve your times or whatever. I'd cahnge your coach iof he doesn't give a good enough answer. Sorry to be harsh but it doesn't sound like this is going to give you much value.0 -
Could someone explain very simplistically why gym training to build up leg strength won't help with cycling.
This is a genuine question not having a go at those who say it doesn't workTri Coaching
https://www.h3otriathlon.com0 -
lochindaal wrote:Could someone explain very simplistically why gym training to build up leg strength won't help with cycling.
This is a genuine question not having a go at those who say it doesn't work
Basically - weights will make your muscles stronger - but the ability to lift weights with your legs won't help in endurance events like cycling.
Weight training is great for track sprints who need short bursts of explosive power, but big, strong, heavy muscle (if this makes sense) won't help long distance cycling.
Or so I was told.0 -
It's something recommended in the Joe Friel Training Bible book. I seem to remember Robert Millar mentioning it in his book as well and of course you have Lance doing his thing. Can all of these guys be wrong?0
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Should clarify - weight training if done correctly CAN and will help with cycling. But just trying to lift as much as you can and doing few reps won't help a whole lot.
The stuff you see in the video noted above is what a lot of people do in the winter. Building core and base strength - but the best thing you can do - is RIDE.
I've also read that weight training is best followed directly by cycling (stationery or otherwise) as it helps the muscles translate what they've just done into something they will have to remember to do in the future. (Muscle memory)0 -
Pokerface wrote:I've also read that weight training is best followed directly by cycling (stationery or otherwise) as it helps the muscles translate what they've just done into something they will have to remember to do in the future. (Muscle memory)
Sounds a nice theory , don't it?
Not disputing at all... but I think the x training that's undertaken in the off season months (discounting xcross, sorry the muddy guys
) should be rounded off with some indoor cycling or a jounrey back by bike from the gym...
I just helps to remind your OWN mind what you actually doing it for!0 -
lochindaal wrote:Could someone explain very simplistically why gym training to build up leg strength won't help with cycling.
This is a genuine question not having a go at those who say it doesn't work
Genuine answer - it is about reverse appropriation. If you take a cyclist who has never lifted weights before but has foollowed a very good solid progressive training program - he will improve if he does appropriate weight lifting exercises that focus on the right things. Their 1 rep max score on the very first weight session will also be comparable to many power lifters.
Take a power lifter who hasn't ridden seriously before and can squat an equivalent amount to the above mentioned cyclist and put them on a road bike and the reverse will not be true.
Weight training is a supplemental element of training that will add benefit if done effectively as stated by Pokerface. I would suggest that in phreaks post, Lance and Robert Millar may have done a bit more cycling than they do weights on an average week. Many people make amistake of emulating certain elements of a professionals regime when actually, the professional won't have been doing that when they were at your (our) level!0 -
2 points:
Firstly about the whole cardio work in the gym thing. I didn't mean it was useless, far from it! I meant it was less effective then going outside. It is not the same as altitude training for various reasons, but basically it just means you will get fatigued faster meaning less training time. BUT yes of course its not useless to train in the gym, I do it myself for rowing practice and running.
Secondly, of course just getting on your bike would be best, but this poster was asking about gym work. And the work I put out (3 reps etc) was simply an example of muscular resistance training, i.e not big weights, just fast low weight actions. This is because it replicates the action of cycling (repetitive movement). As previously mentioned, heavy weights won't help in a endurance activity.
P.S most of what I am saying is from textbooks, not just my own opinion, the main one being:
Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition and Human Performance.
P.S.S I do like a good science debate, so not insult meant to anyone I am disagreeing with!0 -
Going back to the OP.
I daresay he is off on a verrrrrry long training ride... I can't actually think of one suitable gym routine that will effectively cover all the bases (physical and mental) for a LEJOG.0 -
It's a reasonable question.lochindaal wrote:Could someone explain very simplistically why gym training to build up leg strength won't help with cycling.
This is a genuine question not having a go at those who say it doesn't work
I've posted this elsewhere.....
I'm for doing training that is specifically going to aid cycling performance. The type and nature of events that you are targeting will dictate whether specific strength work done with weights makes sense or not.
For example, I would have some riders focussed on track TT & sprint do weights. Even then the nature of the weights performed and balance with bike training needs to be considered. Many are actually better off not doing weights at and focussing their sprint work on the bike.
Problem is, the physiological adaptations induced by real strength/weights work run counter to those required to improve endurance cycling performance (ECP). e.g.
- it adds mass for no gain in aerobic power output,
- increases diffusion distance for exchange of key metabolites and gases at the cellular level,
- reduces mitochondrial volume (mitochondria are the power production houses inside our muscle cells) and
- does not stimulate capillary growth/density (critical for supplying the working muscles with O2),
i.e. runs counter to all things necessary to improve sustainable power.
There is a low correlation between strength, speed and endurance.
Finally, the pedal/crank forces in ECP are very low (typically nearly an order of magnitude less than our maximal force generation capacity), such that our (maximal) strength* is not a limiter. If you can walk up stairs or get up from your chair, you are strong enough to ride a bike up Alpe d'Huez..
By all means do weights for other reasons but a claim they aid ECP doesn't stack up.
Nevertheless, some exercise is better than none. And any exercise for an untrained person will aid performance. But typically we are talking about people who are already reasonably (cycling) trained to some degree.
For those that can't ride, then anything that engages a large muscle mass in an aerobically meaningful manner is preferred. Walking, jogging, running, stairs, elliptical machine (my pick), rowing machines X-C skiing etc etc
* I put "maximal" in brackets since strength is already defined as maximal force generation capacity of a muscle or group of muscles.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
It's a reasonable question.lochindaal wrote:Could someone explain very simplistically why gym training to build up leg strength won't help with cycling.
This is a genuine question not having a go at those who say it doesn't work
I've posted this elsewhere.....
I'm for doing training that is specifically going to aid cycling performance. The type and nature of events that you are targeting will dictate whether specific strength work done with weights makes sense or not.
For example, I would have some riders focussed on track TT & sprint do weights. Even then the nature of the weights performed and balance with bike training needs to be considered. Many are actually better off not doing weights at and focussing their sprint work on the bike.
Problem is, the physiological adaptations induced by real strength/weights work run counter to those required to improve endurance cycling performance (ECP). e.g.
- it adds mass for no gain in aerobic power output,
- increases diffusion distance for exchange of key metabolites and gases at the cellular level,
- reduces mitochondrial volume (mitochondria are the power production houses inside our muscle cells) and
- does not stimulate capillary growth/density (critical for supplying the working muscles with O2),
i.e. runs counter to all things necessary to improve sustainable power.
There is a low correlation between strength, speed and endurance.
Finally, the pedal/crank forces in ECP are very low (typically nearly an order of magnitude less than our maximal force generation capacity), such that our (maximal) strength* is not a limiter. If you can walk up stairs or get up from your chair, you are strong enough to ride a bike up Alpe d'Huez..
By all means do weights for other reasons but a claim they aid ECP doesn't stack up.
Nevertheless, some exercise is better than none. And any exercise for an untrained person will aid performance. But typically we are talking about people who are already reasonably (cycling) trained to some degree.
For those that can't ride, then anything that engages a large muscle mass in an aerobically meaningful manner is preferred. Walking, jogging, running, stairs, elliptical machine (my pick), rowing machines X-C skiing etc etc
* I put "maximal" in brackets since strength is already defined as maximal force generation capacity of a muscle or group of muscles.
I guess you missed the part where he said can someone "simplistically" explain....!!
Excellent answer, if you can understand it! Can you simplify for the dumber ones (like me) on the forum?0 -
It's an aerobic sport, dammit!Pokerface wrote:Excellent answer, if you can understand it! Can you simplify for the dumber ones (like me) on the forum? 0 -
Problem is, the physiological adaptations induced by real strength/weights work run counter to those required to improve endurance cycling performance (ECP). e.g.
- it adds mass for no gain in aerobic power output,
- increases diffusion distance for exchange of key metabolites and gases at the cellular level,
- reduces mitochondrial volume (mitochondria are the power production houses inside our muscle cells) and
- does not stimulate capillary growth/density (critical for supplying the working muscles with O2),
i.e. runs counter to all things necessary to improve sustainable powe
I promised i wasn't going to get involved in this debate again but here goes.
If weight training results in hypertrophy (adds muscle mass) then yes it is likely to negatively impact endurance cycling performance. However short term training programmes approx 6-10 weeks result in very little hypertrophy if any at all so the variables mentioned above will not be affected. But there will be a significant impact on the central nervous system resulting in greater central activation and inter and intra muscular coordination. This can either mean greater maximal strength or more efficient muscle contraction at lower forces e.g. when cycling (there is evidence for this but it is limited at the moment). This should be the rational behind strength/resistance work behind strength training for endurance cycling.
Oshiboi if your just getting back into cycling however id try to focus on riding ride your bike as much as possible in the short term there is probably more to be gained from this for you.
disgruntledgoat, I'd say to lower the weight a little until your able to recover from the session within 24-36 hours so it doesnt impact on your riding then move things back up, max strength is what you want to focus on eventually though. keep it going for 6-8 weeks to see if you feel the benefit . If you do then reintroduce the training back into your program for 6 -8 weeks prior to your racing season next year.
Exercises such as squats, lunges and dead lifts are also far better core training techniques than traditional core exercises such as planks, sit ups etc.
And just to finish off If one of my athletes was lifting with Lances technique in that video i would have to shoot myself.0 -
Starts and sprint work on a bike would be far more effective, since it is much much more specific to the joint angles, forces and velocities encountered on a bike.jp1985 wrote:If weight training results in hypertrophy (adds muscle mass) then yes it is likely to negatively impact endurance cycling performance. However short term training programmes approx 6-10 weeks result in very little hypertrophy if any at all so the variables mentioned above will not be affected. But there will be a significant impact on the central nervous system resulting in greater central activation and inter and intra muscular coordination. This can either mean greater maximal strength or more efficient muscle contraction at lower forces e.g. when cycling (there is evidence for this but it is limited at the moment). This should be the rational behind strength/resistance work behind strength training for endurance cycling.
Can you refer me to the limited evidence mentioned. I'd like to review it. Thanks.0 -
Pokerface wrote:I guess you missed the part where he said can someone "simplistically" explain....!!
Excellent answer, if you can understand it! Can you simplify for the dumber ones (like me) on the forum?
Someone I know had a one legged guy in his club
They all used to do 10 mile time trials
The one legged guys times were pretty much the same as everyone elses, despite having half the muscles.
This wasn't due to some kind of aerodynamic effect or the one legged guy being a
superman. It happened like this because the limiting factor on performance is the heart and lungs and not the leg strength0 -
jp1985 wrote:disgruntledgoat, I'd say to lower the weight a little until your able to recover from the session within 24-36 hours so it doesnt impact on your riding then move things back up, max strength is what you want to focus on eventually though. keep it going for 6-8 weeks to see if you feel the benefit . If you do then reintroduce the training back into your program for 6 -8 weeks prior to your racing season next year.
Exercises such as squats, lunges and dead lifts are also far better core training techniques than traditional core exercises such as planks, sit ups etc.
Thanks for that, I think the stiffness/soreness was as a result of taking on a different activity for the first time in a long time. The effects i described were after a gym induction session (a quick use of a number of machines) and a teaching session on the squats etc with my coach i was squatting 25kg in that, i don't think I physically could lower the weight!
I hit the gym the next night at a more realistic 50kg and 75kg on a leg press machine and then did an easy hour on the turbo and felt a little stiff the next morning, but nowhere near as bad and fine on the turbo. I think its the "shock" period you hear so much about that caused the soreness. I'm doing a very low number of reps but at high weight, is this the correct approach?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Well if we are dishing out anecdotes (not that anecdotes are evidence mine youvorsprung wrote:Pokerface wrote:I guess you missed the part where he said can someone "simplistically" explain....!!
Excellent answer, if you can understand it! Can you simplify for the dumber ones (like me) on the forum?
Someone I know had a one legged guy in his club
They all used to do 10 mile time trials
The one legged guys times were pretty much the same as everyone elses, despite having half the muscles.
This wasn't due to some kind of aerodynamic effect or the one legged guy being a
superman. It happened like this because the limiting factor on performance is the heart and lungs and not the leg strength ), I'm a lower leg amputee of just over two years and lost considerable strength naturally as a result. I did a Maximal Aerobic Power* test last month and set an all time PB.
* a ramp test to exhaustion with a defined linear increase in power output per unit time0 -
jp1985 wrote:But there will be a significant impact on the central nervous system resulting in greater central activation and inter and intra muscular coordination. This can either mean greater maximal strength or more efficient muscle contraction at lower forces e.g. when cycling (there is evidence for this but it is limited at the moment). This should be the rational behind strength/resistance work behind strength training for endurance cycling.
Exercises such as squats, lunges and dead lifts are also far better core training techniques than traditional core exercises such as planks, sit ups etc.
In my understanding, while you're right about the impact on the central nervous system, I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. Why would you train your central nervous system to fire slowly and possibly out of sequence with heavy weight squats? I have been led to believe that this would lead to a less efficient muscle contraction.
This is why all my athletes only do explosive or isometric weights.0 -
vorsprung wrote:Pokerface wrote:I guess you missed the part where he said can someone "simplistically" explain....!!
Excellent answer, if you can understand it! Can you simplify for the dumber ones (like me) on the forum?
Someone I know had a one legged guy in his club
They all used to do 10 mile time trials
The one legged guys times were pretty much the same as everyone elses, despite having half the muscles.
This wasn't due to some kind of aerodynamic effect or the one legged guy being a
superman. It happened like this because the limiting factor on performance is the heart and lungs and not the leg strength
That's interesting - 'cause I'M a one-legged cyclist! (with prosthetic).
My 10 mile TT times are better than most, but I definitely suffer from having one leg in terms of power loss.
Only reason I do as well as I do is because I train hard. If I had both legs I'd be kicking a lot more ass....0 -
Pokerface wrote:That's interesting - 'cause I'M a one-legged cyclist! (with prosthetic).
My 10 mile TT times are better than most, but I definitely suffer from having one leg in terms of power loss.
Only reason I do as well as I do is because I train hard. If I had both legs I'd be kicking a lot more ass....
I have power data for myself pre and post amputation. Amputation at end-May 2007.
My last Maximal Aerobic Power test I set an all time PB at 103% of pre-amp PB power
My last 16km TT test I was 92% of pre-amp PB power
Sprint power suffers most though at ~ 82-85% of pre-amp PB power0 -
Pokerface wrote:vorsprung wrote:Pokerface wrote:I guess you missed the part where he said can someone "simplistically" explain....!!
Excellent answer, if you can understand it! Can you simplify for the dumber ones (like me) on the forum?
Someone I know had a one legged guy in his club
They all used to do 10 mile time trials
The one legged guys times were pretty much the same as everyone elses, despite having half the muscles.
This wasn't due to some kind of aerodynamic effect or the one legged guy being a
superman. It happened like this because the limiting factor on performance is the heart and lungs and not the leg strength
That's interesting - 'cause I'M a one-legged cyclist! (with prosthetic).
My 10 mile TT times are better than most, but I definitely suffer from having one leg in terms of power loss.
Only reason I do as well as I do is because I train hard. If I had both legs I'd be kicking a lot more ass....
But would you? If you had 2 legs to power/supply with blood/oxygen/nutrients would your heart/lungs/blood supply system be able to keep up the same level of delivery at point of need as they can with just one leg to worry about?
I don't know the answer - intuitivley I'd say no - hope someone can supply a good (sensible!!) answer.0 -
Squats will give immense leg strength.... about 7 years back I went from spinning a lowish gear to virtually never never getting out of the big ring after a Winter of squats. This looks good on a club run and is more or less a must IMHO if you plan to do any kind of racing but it's not essential. Remember the old adage - spin, spin, spin!
Upper body conditioning is a better option as it will help strengthen the muscles that hold you up on the bike and will certainly help limit arm cramping on long climbs and over longer distances - core training is good too for the same reasons...
Remember, that weight training will increase body weight but as it's usually lean body mass that increases this is a good thing unless you take it to extremes. I don't think we have hills of the length in this Country to make much of a difference regarding body weight and climbing performance unless you want to get really competetive...let all your saddles be comfy and all your rides less bumpy....0 -
ut_och_cykla wrote:If you had 2 legs to power/supply with blood/oxygen/nutrients would your heart/lungs/blood supply system be able to keep up the same level of delivery at point of need as they can with just one leg to worry about?
yes it would!
With one leg you are actually working HARDER than with 2 legs. Why you ask? Because you have to do a lot of extra work to move a prosthetic in a circle as opposed to a leg with muscle that powers itself.0
