Should we do something about the feral ones??

berliner

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ghter.html

or should we wait for another review, another report, more talk of better education etc etc. etc blah blah blah
At the moment, on a ride, the anger of things like this can be taken out on the bike. (a huge surge of adrenaline)
Maybe we should all go round to the feral family in Barwell and get ourselves to a nice plasma screen TV or maybe a little bike. We've probably paid for it!!!!
If we make a mistake who cares- they don't.
Taking ones feelings out on the bike is ok short term but other families are suffering from underclass like this on a daily basis. What should one do??


.

fast as fupp

maybe Daily Heil sponsored vigilante squads are the answer

"justice for middle-england shall be their war cry!

berliner

The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/2 ... on-inquest

disgruntledgoat

Justice and revenge are completely different things.

pastasauce

Beat the tw*ts then tar and feather them.

Then again a week later.

And again.

They understand what you're going on about then ........

bompington

fast as fupp wrote:

maybe Daily Heil sponsored vigilante squads are the answer

"justice for middle-england shall be their war cry!

I take it you have a better solution

fast as fupp

bompington wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

maybe Daily Heil sponsored vigilante squads are the answer

"justice for middle-england shall be their war cry!

I take it you have a better solution

are you saying that vigelanteism is the solution?

Buckled_Rims

Even in countries where they cut your hands off for stealing, theres still thieves so that solution doesn't work! The families that cause problems don't fear going to prison - after-all, it's a family tradition! Probably even have a family Xmas party in Strangeways!

What most of them fear is the police harassing them constantly. Waking them up at 7 am and searching the house is far worse to them then going into custody for a few days. However, the ..evil rights movement..er, civil rights movement would protect from that.

My solution is simple. Once convicted of harassment, then the Police should have the power to harass that family by searching their property ie, computers, mobiles, bank accounts etc at any time without a court order for a 12 month period.

If all else fails, knee cap them :twisted:

disgruntledgoat

Buckled_Rims wrote:

Even in countries where they cut your hands off for stealing, theres still thieves so that solution doesn't work! The families that cause problems don't fear going to prison - after-all, it's a family tradition! Probably even have a family Xmas party in Strangeways!

What most of them fear is the police harassing them constantly. Waking them up at 7 am and searching the house is far worse to them then going into custody for a few days. However, the ..evil rights movement..er, civil rights movement would protect from that.

My solution is simple. Once convicted of harassment, then the Police should have the power to harass that family by searching their property ie, computers, mobiles, bank accounts etc at any time without a court order for a 12 month period.

If all else fails, knee cap them :twisted:

Joe Stalin called, he wants his society back.

bompington

fast as fupp wrote:

bompington wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

maybe Daily Heil sponsored vigilante squads are the answer

"justice for middle-england shall be their war cry!

I take it you have a better solution

are you saying that vigelanteism is the solution?

It's easy to parody a strawman version of how you think other people think, harder to propose something positive. No, I'm not saying vigilantism is the answer.
But here's a thought: my feeling is that one of the main reasons why this kind of behaviour is so common is that adults in general have abdicated their responsibility for kids as a whole; partly due to the absurd nationalisation of child rearing, partly due to the cultural pressure that requires adults to behave like kids as late as they can get away with, partly due to the fragmentation of community life.
So what's the difference between vigilante squads and concerned neighbours keeping an eye on the street?

I actually work with these sorts of kids for a living; and tbh, there are plenty of times when it feels like beating the crap out of them would not only work out my frustrations, but actually do them some good. When you first meet them, the natural reaction is "little shites"; get to know them and hear their stories, and you might think "poor little kids"; in the end you tend to settle on "poor little shites".
One thing in my job is certain - there are no quick fixes [/cliche] , patient teaching of right and wrong, boundaries and consequences can work wonders but only when applied long term and consistently (stamina is more useful than any other quality in this job). This, of course, is what used to be called discipline, but that's out of fashion now isn't it?

Special K

National service for all school leavers.

Core 6 months
plus additional 3 months anytime the under 25s are not in work, training or education.
Marginal tax rates and zero benefits for life for anyone not complying.

How's that for starters?

fast as fupp

bompington wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

bompington wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

maybe Daily Heil sponsored vigilante squads are the answer

"justice for middle-england shall be their war cry!

I take it you have a better solution

are you saying that vigelanteism is the solution?

It's easy to parody a strawman version of how you think other people think, harder to propose something positive. No, I'm not saying vigilantism is the answer.
But here's a thought: my feeling is that one of the main reasons why this kind of behaviour is so common is that adults in general have abdicated their responsibility for kids as a whole; partly due to the absurd nationalisation of child rearing, partly due to the cultural pressure that requires adults to behave like kids as late as they can get away with, partly due to the fragmentation of community life.
So what's the difference between vigilante squads and concerned neighbours keeping an eye on the street?

I actually work with these sorts of kids for a living; and tbh, there are plenty of times when it feels like beating the crap out of them would not only work out my frustrations, but actually do them some good. When you first meet them, the natural reaction is "little shites"; get to know them and hear their stories, and you might think "poor little kids"; in the end you tend to settle on "poor little shites".
One thing in my job is certain - there are no quick fixes [/cliche] , patient teaching of right and wrong, boundaries and consequences can work wonders but only when applied long term and consistently (stamina is more useful than any other quality in this job). This, of course, is what used to be called discipline, but that's out of fashion now isn't it?

youre quite correct in the fact that adults have abdicated their responsibilty for keeping an eye on goings on - unfortunately weve reached a stage where adults are scared to intervene for fear of either being kicked to death or being labelled a paedo

rather than intervening people will now call out the police- who simply dont have the resources to deal with every asbo call

i dont have the answers to this one-maybe weve passed the tipping point but vigilanteism i.e. gangs of adults dishing out punishment beatings is not the solution?

finchy

Special K wrote:

National service for all school leavers.

Core 6 months
plus additional 3 months anytime the under 25s are not in work, training or education.
Marginal tax rates and zero benefits for life for anyone not complying.

How's that for starters?

Terrible idea.

Why punish all young people for the crimes of the few? And what if they have moral objections to going thousands of miles to kill somebody they don't even know? Should we punish them for that?

Also, national service won't cut down on anti-social behaviour. My Grandad did his in Iraq and Egypt, and has told me stories of the appalling behaviour of soldiers on NS out there.

northernneil

national service is not 'punishment, I think it would work very well, I for one think i would have enjoyed it. It seems to work in countries like switzerland'

finchy

northernneil wrote:

national service is not 'punishment, I think it would work very well, I for one think i would have enjoyed it. It seems to work in countries like switzerland'

Unless your country is under threat of attack, how can forcing people into the army be considered not punishment?

If you think that you'd enjoy army life, then I suggest that you join the army, but it would be unfair to force law-abiding people like me or my brother into it as well.

yakk

In Germany they used to have (and probably still do) National Service, with the option of doing civilian service (running youth hostels, youth groups and other stuff for example) - strikes me as a sound idea for those that aren't into guns/killing people or doing lots of physical stuff.
Sound really. I believe from memory national service was 13 months and civilian 18.
Yak

finchy

To answer the original question - the problem in this country is, on the whole, bad parenting.

I've done a bit of work in child protection, and the amount of cruelty and neglect towards children in the UK is sickening.

One example - a truancy officer (colleague of mine) picked up an 11 year old child skipping school, and, with a police officer, took him home with the intention of ticking off the parents. When they got there, the mother turned to the child, and shouted "how many times have I told you? If you don't give the police your name they can't do anything." :shock:

A child who is taken into care by the local authorities is 25 times as likely to end up in prison as a child who is brought up in a good family. Many of the badly-behaved youths today will, as I have said, simply be a product of crap parents.

There have been a few scandals recently of young children being tortured to death by their own families. Now imagine what they would have turned out like if they had survived. In all likelihood they would have been so utterly scarred for life that they would have ended up being the sorts of teenagers (and adults) deemed as feral, and all those who ranted about how terrible it all was, what a poor little child, etc. would have been baying for their blood. Any attempt to try to link their behaviour with their childhood and suggest that they should be given a second chance in life would have been written off as do-gooders making up excuses for them, what they need is corporal punishment, blah, blah, blah.

Don't target the children and teenagers. I don't know how it would be possible - I'm sure the police/social services/schools would have a few ideas - but go after the parents instead. They're the ones who brought them up, and in most cases it's their fault.

teagar

Special K wrote:

National service for all school leavers.

Core 6 months
plus additional 3 months anytime the under 25s are not in work, training or education.
Marginal tax rates and zero benefits for life for anyone not complying.

How's that for starters?

Easy to say for people who are over 25

Having a go at people who are not in work given the economic conditions isn't really that sensible.

To the original post, as I've said before, I see the anti-social behaviour and/or lack of family parenting as a symptom of deeper social problems, not the root cause. The solution is not in the police or a hard fist, but in tackling genuinely dififcult problems with a variety of different ways, avoiding the simple blinkered either/or two dimensional answers.

daviesee

In Milan they have a problem with public underage drinking.
Bet you thought it only happened here :evil:
Their answer? 900 euro fine to the parents.
Bet that would get a few parents thinking.

On the other hand, underage supervised social drinking (not drunk) is acceptable.

I bet there are more than a few parents, far less children, in this Country that cannot differentiate between having a drink and getting drunk.

Problems generally begin at home.

Smokin Joe

National service would be useless as almost all of the yobs who bring misery to many areas of the country are still at school.

pepelepew

I think we're well past the tipping point. The majority of these children come from families where their parents don't make a positive contribution to society. No concept of responsibilty. Don't want to work? Fine, the state will pay. Nowhere to live? The state will give you a house.

Want more money? Go to the doctors and say you're so depressed you can't work. You'll get a sicknote and some nice smarties that will dumb you down. Double bonus. Have some kids as well and you'll be quids in. Look after them and show them right from wrong? F@ck that, I'll just drink White Lightning and watch Jeremy Kyle. They can get on with it. Feed them? "Christ no, got to get me a 42 inch plasma with a £1 meter on the back. Then, when the meter is full I unfortunately get 'burgled' and the only thing that's taken is £140 in £1 coins".

I could go on and on. Yes, really! :evil:

We unfortunately have a society where a sizeable proprtion take no responsibility for their actions and feel that they can have what they want and do nothing for it. Prison doesn't frighten them, they treat it like a holiday.

Some people quite rightly deserve to be looked after by the state. But not all of them!

Rant over.

Le Commentateur

Special K wrote:

National service for all school leavers.

Core 6 months
plus additional 3 months anytime the under 25s are not in work, training or education.
Marginal tax rates and zero benefits for life for anyone not complying.

How's that for starters?

Too late. The damage is already done before school-leaving age.

finchy

teagar wrote:

To the original post, as I've said before, I see the anti-social behaviour and/or lack of family parenting as a symptom of deeper social problems, not the root cause. The solution is not in the police or a hard fist, but in tackling genuinely dififcult problems with a variety of different ways, avoiding the simple blinkered either/or two dimensional answers.

You're right that there are no simple solutions, but the question is how to break that cycle of bad parents raise bad children who grow up to be bad parents...............

To be honest, I haven't a clue how anyone would go about this. I know that there are some schemes which work for some people, but maybe there are others who just can't be saved (that's not a statement, just wondering).

STEFANOS4784

Just kill 'em? Job done 8)

a_n_t

johnfinch wrote:

Don't target the children and teenagers. Ibut go after the parents instead. They're the ones who brought them up, and in most cases it's their fault.

chidren and teenagers are the parents! Kids having kids.

finchy

a_n_t wrote:

chidren and teenagers are the parents! Kids having kids.

Good point, well made.

ride_whenever

could you not just weed it out through eugenics?

Sterilise these people to break the cycle. it would only take a couple of generations.

Obviously the problem comes with where to draw the line.

tebbit

The tried eugenics in Sweden up til the late seventies, there were some real horror stories like a 10 year old girl getting sterilised on the say so of a pastor because she wasn't interested in doing her confirmation classes :evil:

Culling might be the way forward it isn't as saleable a concept as eugenics but it provides a short term solution.

bobpzero

http://www.christian.org.uk/news/mothers-suicide-turns-lens-on-skewed-police-priorities/
heres a good question
How can the police zealously pursue Christians for criticising Islam yet say the thugs who drove a mother to kill herself and her daughter were a ‘low priority’?

disgruntledgoat

Jeebus some of you are scary... Eugenics, police raids for no reason other than "you look the sort" etc etc.

Kids acting up is always the parents fault, give Fairbridge a shedload more cash and let them teach the kids some self esteem while the parents get shamed into making an effort. Should that faila nd they commit a crime when they can be tried as an adult, give em a choice prison or the army.

SO many lads in my school joined the army thinking they could throw their weight around there too. 3/4 of them came back to never cause any trouble again.

finchy

bobpzero wrote:

http://www.christian.org.uk/news/mothers-suicide-turns-lens-on-skewed-police-priorities/
heres a good question
How can the police zealously pursue Christians for criticising Islam yet say the thugs who drove a mother to kill herself and her daughter were a ‘low priority’?

Well, seeing as the author of the article admits to not knowing what was actually said, and we don't know if it was even the same force, then what exactly is the point?

For all we know the alleged victim could have been threatening to kill the guest based on their religion.

And as for Melanie Philips, I bet she doesn't think that the police shouldn't investigate anti-Jewish race hate crime.